PC Gamer - Best RPG 2018: Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire

[Wormerine]

Balance is an illusion.

Balance is happiness. Best you can do is to pursue it. Edited December 21, 2018 by Wormerine

[gloomseeker]

 

Balance is an illusion.

Balance is happiness. Best you can do is to pursue it.

 

 

Only to realise it is but an illusion once you have it in your grasp. 

[DaylenAmell]

Very nice and well-deserved I suppose. Hope this can improve the sales!

[Verde]

 

Balance is an illusion.

Balance is happiness. Best you can do is to pursue it.

But if you can't reach it will you be happy?

[Dorftek]

This is happy news! I think obsidian are fantastic and I want them to get the credit they deserve.

 

Hopefully obsidian getting bought by Microsoft won't affect their production of good classic RPGs if they are successful enough. Although I must say that Outer world's does look very interesting!

[Cartoons Plural]

Bg2 would get ripped a new arsehole for its foibles if it dropped as a new game now. I loved ad&d but at its worst is oblique nonsense. Back then most of audience for bg was vaccinated against it. Is not case now.

yeah i think this has more to do with the internet being unreasonable, mid major tiyles like this game get way more scutiny and weird dogpiling than the love in for aaa titles like overwatch that only now is getting backlash for what its always been a very ptetty and one dimensional gane with loot crates

[Verde]

BG2 uses the archaic D&D system, even for it's time it was not exactly intuitive, but the acting, characters, dialogue, story, quests, and epic battles are still on par or better than anything we see today in a whole package. More than anything it was inspired which is more than can be said about a majority of games nowadays.

Edited December 24, 2018 by Verde

[gloomseeker]

BG2 uses the archaic D&D system, even for it's time it was not exactly intuitive, but the acting, characters, dialogue, story, quests, and epic battles are still on par or better than anything we see today in a whole package. More than anything it was inspired which is more than can be said about a majority of games nowadays.

 

I absolutely LOVE good old BG but frankly if you leave aside the ruleset (definitely an acquired taste) you have to recognize that originally the BG1 NPCs were a bit paper thin. 

 

There is a reason why the NPC mod for BG1 is probably one of the best mods for the game. 

 

The strength of Baldur's Gate was to take the fundamental fight between Good and Evil (a common trope in fantasy) and turn it into an internal conflict within the main character's soul.

 

The struggle between Good and Evil becomes the inner struggle to embrace or reject the legacy of the Bhaalspawn. 

 

That's the reason why I believe BG is still relevant and meaningful today in ways that Icewind Dale is not. 

[Verde]

That's a good pt in that it handled the ability to play good or evil very well.

[Wormerine]

 

BG2 uses the archaic D&D system, even for it's time it was not exactly intuitive, but the acting, characters, dialogue, story, quests, and epic battles are still on par or better than anything we see today in a whole package. More than anything it was inspired which is more than can be said about a majority of games nowadays.

 

I absolutely LOVE good old BG but frankly if you leave aside the ruleset (definitely an acquired taste) you have to recognize that originally the BG1 NPCs were a bit paper thin. 

 

There is a reason why the NPC mod for BG1 is probably one of the best mods for the game. 

 

The strength of Baldur's Gate was to take the fundamental fight between Good and Evil (a common trope in fantasy) and turn it into an internal conflict within the main character's soul.

 

The struggle between Good and Evil becomes the inner struggle to embrace or reject the legacy of the Bhaalspawn. 

There are some nice things there, but I think that even black&white good vs evil isn't done too well, as I find it far too difficult to play as evil character - quests simply don't support it much. Sure, you can kill random NPC to balance it out, but that's not much fun.

 

What Baldur's Gates did so well is to use gameplay loops as narrative fuel. You murder thousands of creatures and instead of it clashing with your character, BG uses it as part of the story and addresses it multiple times head on. Lack of choice works because no matter who you want to be in the end you are the Bhaalspawn. A bit of "would you kindly" there. 

 

Struggle is less with what you choose to do, but that what you do in the game is at odds which whom you probably want to be as the character.

[Verde]

 

 

BG2 uses the archaic D&D system, even for it's time it was not exactly intuitive, but the acting, characters, dialogue, story, quests, and epic battles are still on par or better than anything we see today in a whole package. More than anything it was inspired which is more than can be said about a majority of games nowadays.

I absolutely LOVE good old BG but frankly if you leave aside the ruleset (definitely an acquired taste) you have to recognize that originally the BG1 NPCs were a bit paper thin.

 

There is a reason why the NPC mod for BG1 is probably one of the best mods for the game.

 

The strength of Baldur's Gate was to take the fundamental fight between Good and Evil (a common trope in fantasy) and turn it into an internal conflict within the main character's soul.

 

The struggle between Good and Evil becomes the inner struggle to embrace or reject the legacy of the Bhaalspawn.

There are some nice things there, but I think that even black&white good vs evil isn't done too well, as I find it far too difficult to play as evil character - quests simply don't support it much. Sure, you can kill random NPC to balance it out, but that's not much fun.

 

What Baldur's Gates did so well is to use gameplay loops as narrative fuel. You murder thousands of creatures and instead of it clashing with your character, BG uses it as part of the story and addresses it multiple times head on. Lack of choice works because no matter who you want to be in the end you are the Bhaalspawn. A bit of "would you kindly" there.

 

Struggle is less with what you choose to do, but that what you do in the game is at odds which whom you probably want to be as the character.

I mean you can side with the vampires and channel your inner alien...but there are issues with the reputation system. I can't think of too many RPGs that allow you to play good or evil with such a colorful cast of characters. The motivation is there too, not to just be a brain dead murderhobo, but one realizing his/her full potential as a Child of Bhaal. Edited December 24, 2018 by Verde

[gloomseeker]

 

 

 

BG2 uses the archaic D&D system, even for it's time it was not exactly intuitive, but the acting, characters, dialogue, story, quests, and epic battles are still on par or better than anything we see today in a whole package. More than anything it was inspired which is more than can be said about a majority of games nowadays.

I absolutely LOVE good old BG but frankly if you leave aside the ruleset (definitely an acquired taste) you have to recognize that originally the BG1 NPCs were a bit paper thin.

 

There is a reason why the NPC mod for BG1 is probably one of the best mods for the game.

 

The strength of Baldur's Gate was to take the fundamental fight between Good and Evil (a common trope in fantasy) and turn it into an internal conflict within the main character's soul.

 

The struggle between Good and Evil becomes the inner struggle to embrace or reject the legacy of the Bhaalspawn.

There are some nice things there, but I think that even black&white good vs evil isn't done too well, as I find it far too difficult to play as evil character - quests simply don't support it much. Sure, you can kill random NPC to balance it out, but that's not much fun.

 

What Baldur's Gates did so well is to use gameplay loops as narrative fuel. You murder thousands of creatures and instead of it clashing with your character, BG uses it as part of the story and addresses it multiple times head on. Lack of choice works because no matter who you want to be in the end you are the Bhaalspawn. A bit of "would you kindly" there.

 

Struggle is less with what you choose to do, but that what you do in the game is at odds which whom you probably want to be as the character.

I mean you can side with the vampires and channel your inner alien...but there are issues with the reputation system. I can't think of too many RPGs that allow you to play good or evil with such a colorful cast of characters. The motivation is there too, not to just be a brain dead murderhobo, but one realizing his/her full potential as a Child of Bhaal.

 

 

There is nothing I enjoy more than playing an evil character in a CRPG and the BG series does offer many opportunities if you're playing that way. 

 

By that I don't mean the braindead options of killing everyone but the more subtle ways an evil manipulative Bhaalspawn would rely on. 

 

I have many examples of things you can do in the game. There is the obvious lies that the game allows you to choose and you can consistently be dishonest and callous in many ways while maintaining the pretense of being a decent person in front of your party. 

 

You can also play around with what the game allows for instance selling Melicamp to Thalantyr for a little gold (after all mages have to eat too). 

 

The game is rife with possibilities. 

 

On this subject I do believe a smart evil protagonist would rather trust good and loyal characters who are dependable rather than surround himself or herself with psychos. Jaheira may not be happy about the outcome of some encounters but as long as you're not too obvious she will stick by your side whereas Xzar and Monty are not the most reliable kind. 

 

The good thing about playing an evil character is that you don't have to find a loophole to justify some actions (like getting the Silver Pantaloons which is something no goody two shoes should ever do). 

 

Last but not least in BG2 I can see very few reasons for an evil character to free Viconia from her pyre. Chances are an evil character would be roasting marshmallows while making friends with the Cleric of Beshaba. 

 

I've tried playing an evil guy in Deadfire and I did like the Intimidate options (I had gone through the first game picking the worst possible outcomes just for fun). My only regret is that it is a bit too easy not to alienate followers.Sure they can be annoyed but they will love you if you crack some jokes and apart from some guy (I won't be specific about because it's the no spoiler forum) who will quit in relation to certain quest even if you're lying through your teeth it's pretty smooth sailing. 

[Verde]

My last playthrough in BG2 was Me (Halfling Swashbuckler), Korgan, Edwin, Minsc, Jaheira, and Viconia. It was glorious. Lots of in fighting but no one left.

 

Also I love how you can eventually change Vic's alignment.

[gloomseeker]

My last playthrough in BG2 was Me (Halfling Swashbuckler), Korgan, Edwin, Minsc, Jaheira, and Viconia. It was glorious. Lots of in fighting but no one left.

 

Also I love how you can eventually change Vic's alignment.

 

With all this talk of BG I feel like reinstalling the game and playing an evil Swashbuckler Cleric when I should be thinking about my good natured Marauder (Berserker Streetfighter) in Deadfire.

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

That's the reason why I believe BG is still relevant and meaningful today in ways that Icewind Dale is not.

 

not entirely on board with that tbh.

 

i feel bg2's power comes from its ability to convey joy in every trope it can get its grasping hands on.

 

despite its reach, most of its writing is efficient enough that it rarely fieels messy. its not a small achievement.

 

however, i dont feel it centres any ideas as bracing as IWD2's nasty fatalism.

 

There are some nice things there, but I think that even black&white good vs evil isn't done too well, as I find it far too difficult to play as evil character - quests simply don't support it much. Sure, you can kill random NPC to balance it out, but that's not much fun.

 

cant remember off-hand, but didnt one of bg2's designers say straight-up they werent all that interested in enabling an evil playthrough? and that they wanted to focus on giving the player good deeds to accomplish? it sounds vaguely gaider-ish but i could be wrong.

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

Ooh, missed this one out. why am i so bad at internet.

 

I absolutely LOVE good old BG but frankly if you leave aside the ruleset (definitely an acquired taste) you have to recognize that originally the BG1 NPCs were a bit paper thin.

 

never felt this was a weakness tbh. gave me more incentive to swap around party members and make up little stories in my head about them.

 

i dont mean to dimiss all the work thats been done since re: narrative design in rpgs, but i feel minimalism has its place. who hasnt got attached to their mute little gun turrets in x-com.

[gloomseeker]

Ooh, missed this one out. why am i so bad at internet.

 

I absolutely LOVE good old BG but frankly if you leave aside the ruleset (definitely an acquired taste) you have to recognize that originally the BG1 NPCs were a bit paper thin.

 

never felt this was a weakness tbh. gave me more incentive to swap around party members and make up little stories in my head about them.

 

i dont mean to dimiss all the work thats been done since re: narrative design in rpgs, but i feel minimalism has its place. who hasnt got attached to their mute little gun turrets in x-com.

 

Having blank slates to build upon can be fun as long as you can make these blank slates more personal with a little customisation. 

 

Takes all kinds, you know. 

 

The strength of BG characters was that they had enough personality to actually work in the game but weren't too complex so that you would ponder too much whether some actions would be out of character. 

 

Take Shar Teel, Ajantis and Eldoth for instance. They all get a little back story in the BG comic but it's not necessary to be familiar with that material to understand that Ajantis is the prototype of the paladin, that Shar Teel is a male hating female version of Conan who likes money over anything else and that Eldoth is a smooth talking scoundrel with a nasty streak. 

 

As for playing evil, in my opinion the game is easier if you don't have to adhere to a good alignment. In BG2 you can get the silver pantaloons, you don't have to worry so much about siding with Bodhi or the Shadow Thieves and you don't have to accept losing some stat points because of the Hell Trials (if you don't want to cheat of course). 

 

Of course as a good guy you'll probably care enough to recover Yoshimo's heart and get a nice XP boost in the process.  

[Verde]

Ooh, missed this one out. why am i so bad at internet.

 

I absolutely LOVE good old BG but frankly if you leave aside the ruleset (definitely an acquired taste) you have to recognize that originally the BG1 NPCs were a bit paper thin.

never felt this was a weakness tbh. gave me more incentive to swap around party members and make up little stories in my head about them.

 

i dont mean to dimiss all the work thats been done since re: narrative design in rpgs, but i feel minimalism has its place. who hasnt got attached to their mute little gun turrets in x-com.

Do you play/like Dark Souls? Those games do minimal story telling very well.

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

Do you play/like Dark Souls? Those games do minimal story telling very well.

Played through dark souls 1. Enjoyed it overall but storytelling aspect highly overrated. The lores fun and the boss design is incredible but actual narrative weak sauce.

 

Pretty much every other metroidvania does a better job of using its closed world to generate momentum. Just think of how tense and claustrophobic the original metroid games were by comparison.

 

Game is awash with npcs prattling about stuff of no consequence. Wouldve been better not to include them at all. Thought the world was supposed to be dying. Why do we have all these comic relief clowns gibbering about other kingdoms.

 

A shame. Theres real power in the games aesthetic. The approach to the first kiln, followed by the fight with gwyn where he simply runs at u with no cutscene intro and sakurabas piano score is great example of the game living up to its legend. Fight with astorius (or whatev his name was) also good. And the big wolf with sword. Boss designers and sakuraba do serious heavy lifting throughout.

 

I just wish theyd have combined all those moments into an actual arc. Instead u kinda potter about, ringing bells and fking about with something called the lordvessel with no sense of urgency or consequence whatsoever. Like i get ur supposed to be the proverbial reaper putting an old dead world to the flame but game gets far too wrapped up in its own trivia to sell that theme.

[Verde]

Ah, well the lack of urgency works in its favor imho as opposed to the common conflict we see in Deadfire.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Verde

[house2fly]

Try Bloodborne

[Wormerine]

Ah, well the lack of urgency works in its favor imho as opposed to the common conflict we see in Deadfire.

Yeah just beat DS1 for the first time, and I did find the lack of momentum a great thing. It just gave enough info to have a goal in mind and let you explore at will. I have no idea what was all that about though.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Wormerine

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

If its environmental storytelling had been up to scratch then luxuriating in it wouldnt have been a problem. But it never felt like a world, or even the ruins of one. Just felt like a load of different levels in a computer game.

 

I did enjoy the game but i dont fully believe the hype.

 

EDIT:

 

ye im intrigued by bloodborne. Unfortunately i dont have a PS4, so i dont know when ill get to it.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Triple - A Foxy Lad

[Verde]

 

Ah, well the lack of urgency works in its favor imho as opposed to the common conflict we see in Deadfire.

Yeah just beat DS1 for the first time, and I did find the lack of momentum a great thing. It just gave enough info to have a goal in mind and let you explore at will. I have no idea what was all that about though.

It's confusing but the more you play and dig and even discuss on forums the more that you'll discover.

 

Did u find all the covenants? There's one in particular that's pretty hard to find blind, and adds a lot of lore (and interesting gameplay).

Edited December 26, 2018 by Verde