Crusader Duelist (Crit Seeker)

[Torm51]

What do you guys think of an off tank crusader single weapon duelist who stacks hit to Crit? Could go devoted for even more Crit damage

[Enoch]

Why a Crusader?  Paladin doesn't seem like it adds much here, aside from the ACC boost of Sworn Enemy.

 

I would think that Fighter-Berserker would be the leading way to stack hit-to-crit, although I could be missing something. 

 

(Also, be aware of the diminishing returns that successive sources of x-to-y conversion get you.) 

[guildwriter]

I agree, not seeing the draw of a Crusader here for a crit focused build.  Paladin is mostly a passive defensive focused class overall.  Once you get past PL3 it's hard to find many offensive actives or passives worth mentioning.  Here are some general thoughts:

• One option is to go something like this build and use crits to farm phrases to then power affliction spam.  Note that many of these afflictions can cause -Deflection through Flanked, loss of Resolve, or straight +hit to crit.
• Another approach is to go Ranger and take advantage of the hefty accuracy bonuses they can get using Marked Prey and Stalker's link for a +20 acc bonus right off the bat.  This will result in more crit chance gain than hit to crit due to the multiplicative stacking effect of the latter.  
• Drop the enemy's deflection into the ground for more chance at crit.  Rogue's Confounding Blind can help with this (Dirty Fighting is a nice crit chance bonus as well).  Priest has Divine Mark along with +ACC spells.
• Look into Monk as well.  Dance of Death gives +ACC and there are a lot of abilities that give fun bonuses for landing crits.

As a general caution, remember the rules on stacking buffs.

Edited November 13, 2018 by guildwriter

[Torm51]

Paladin because I like the flavor of the class lol but aside I think it brings a lot. Great defenses with f and c and deep faith, making you untouchable without a shield once you get vigorous defense. +10 ACC to FOD + ACC fire ring and single handed specialization, improved disciplined barrage nets you 55% hit to crit while it’s up. But ya you guys showed me there are other classes that do it better.

 

 

I just think a crusader doesn’t bring much as a “tank” you are just the last one alive when you lose and then can’t kill anything fast enough once you are the only one left. Trying to make use for him.

 

One thing I did not know about was diminishing returns on stacking hit to crit. How does it work?

Edited November 13, 2018 by Torm51

[guildwriter]

Paladin because I like the flavor of the class lol but aside I think it brings a lot. Great defenses with f and c and deep faith, making you untouchable without a shield once you get vigorous defense. +10 ACC to FOD + ACC fire ring and single handed specialization, improved disciplined barrage nets you 55% hit to crit while it’s up. But ya you guys showed me there are other classes that do it better.

 

 

I just think a crusader doesn’t bring much as a “tank” you are just the last one alive when you lose and then can’t kill anything fast enough once you are the only one left. Trying to make use for him.

 

One thing I did not know about was diminishing returns on stacking hit to crit. How does it work?

 

EDIT: NOT correct, see later in thread.  

 

IIRC hit to crit starts with the largest bonus as the "base" and then every stacking benefit is a multiplier on top of that.  So for example:

• Let's say you start with 25% HtC (Hit to Crit).  Then you get a 15% HtC benefit.
  • 0.25 + 0.15 = 0.40 would be what we call "Additive" as it gives an additional stacking benefit.
  • 0.25 + (0.15 * 0.25) = 0.2875 is what we call "Multiplicative" as it is a multiplied off the the existing benefit.

This helps keep HtC from going out of control but it's also completely opaque to the user without testing.  

 

As for what to do with the offtank I think it's fine to sacrifice some durability for offense.  After all they're not meant to be the primary damage soak, but another engagement sponge to prevent the AI from pushing through.  I think focusing more on mobility and damage to support the back if someone slips through is best.

Edited November 14, 2018 by guildwriter

[Torm51]

So you think the Crusader as his main role of engagement sponge is fine? I just feel that in a game with no aggro his great defense is waisted with a shield, he’s always the last guy alive which makes sense but is useless. I don’t mean as the offtank but as the main defense guy. I think the Crusader doesn’t bring enough to the party to warrant a slot for his crap offense. Just brings more personal survivability, A herald with crap offense is fine because it’s unlimited powerful healing for the party plus just as good survivability. A Crusader just brings exalted endurance plus exhortations. Is he better used as on OT that does consistent damage?

Edited November 13, 2018 by Torm51

[Torm51]

I think I’d rather bring a straight Paladin just because he gets access to support faster if I am going for a tank.

 

PS I know the convo switched but now that I know you can’t stay crit miltiplivtibely I’m wondering what the Crusader is good at in a game where I can’t force the AI to attack him.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Torm51

[guildwriter]

I prefer my offtanks to be able to go where they're needed and murder the thing in question.  If something slips through the lines and approaches the backline, I like to have the offtank be mobile and deadly.  I generally have not seen the use for more than one durable tank. 

 

If he's the last one up and can't do anything, then I would definitely look into restructuring him to kill things.

 

Paladin paired with something like Chanter or Fighter is fine.  Remember a tank that doesn't maximize engagement slots and can't threaten a significant penalty for going past him is not going to be able to hold attention in this game (though there are some things like Beasts which don't engage).

Edited November 13, 2018 by guildwriter

[Torm51]

I prefer my offtanks to be able to go where they're needed and murder the thing in question.  If something slips through the lines and approaches the backline, I like to have the offtank be mobile and deadly.  I generally have not seen the use for more than one durable tank. 

 

If he's the last one up and can't do anything, then I would definitely look into restructuring him to kill things.

 

Paladin paired with something like Chanter or Fighter is fine.  Remember a tank that doesn't maximize engagement slots and can't threaten a significant penalty for going past him is not going to be able to hold attention in this game (though there are some things like Beasts which don't engage).

right so I made a Crusader (unbroken) and he did garner good enough attention, but one fight it just did not matter, the mob ate the disengagement attack (I was level 7) it was naga warrior on PoTD and went to the back line, that said maybe it isnt the Crusader and its the way I fought the fight.  

 

What do you think of the talent that prones targets if you hit with disengagement, guardian stance?  Mob stance is good for a  tank crusader too just because your recovery becomes really fast, meaning you do not that much DEX to have good recovery for actions like Lay on Hands etc  in heavy armor..so many decisions lmao

Edited November 13, 2018 by Torm51

[Boeroer]

Paladin has one big advantage when it comes to crits: Ring of Focused Flame works with FoD. That's +10 ACC on top of your +10 ACC which FoD brings.

 

Conversions are multiplicative. It doesn't matter if the biggest or whichever part of it is used as "base" though. It's communtative.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Boeroer

[Gromnir]

for an off-tank, we can see the appeal o' a torm crusader.  because the crit chances is multiplied, disciplined barrage is all you genuine need to see good crits on a high accuracy hearth orlan... or whatever.  at the same time, as torm wants off-tank, the high accuracy spear or club or dagger wielding crusader is gonna be plenty resilient for off-tankishness.  heck, for most o' Gromnir runs o' deadfire, xoti has been our off-tank and she is nowhere near as resilient as would be a player crusader. 

 

if were Gromnir trying to do as torm, we might choose brawler as a crit spamming off-tank.  am not a devoted fan, but combine with either nalpazca or helwaker would be kinda fun off-tanks who would also see benefits from a high crit rate.  'course we would get negligible support from a brawler. 

 

also to consider, deadfire has five-member parties, and we personal rare feel as if we is successful fulfilling support needs/desires unless our own character also has support capacity.  obvious support companions is xoti, pallegina and tekehu. pallegina is more ideal suited to dps roles not to mention building influence with her and xoti simultaneous is difficult.  tekehu is a viable support companion who also don't pair well with pallegina... and am admitted ambivalent as to which we loathe more, the huana caste system or tekehu's character story.  anybody genuine sympathize with the pressure tekehu must endure being worshiped and coddled all o' his life? 

 

*snort*

 

so sure, torm could come up with better crit builds, but a crusader build is gonna be useful regardless o' levels or special weapons or one-trick-pony builds. high crit crusader is a viable way to off-tank while providing a bit o' party support.  personal, for our main character, am less interested in being super-fantastic at any one thing.  we prefer a main to be able to do a bit o' everything.  so far have had most fun playing contemplative and shaman characters. our faves is hardly ideal dps or support characters, but they is useful and entertaining.  torm's crit crusader should provide decent damage output in a character tough enough to off-tank while also providing useful support.  sounds viable.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited November 14, 2018 by Gromnir

[Torm51]

I will say that I came on the forums for confirmation of the build from more experienced players as even though i was a huge player and had high skill with POE 1 I am not very good at POE 2...getting there , I did try this build once on PoTD/ironman that run that ended midway and he led in crits and was a close second in damage.  So I know it works I just wanted confirmation and ideas from better players.

 

 

Paladin has one big advantage when it comes to crits: Ring of Focused Flame works with FoD. That's +10 ACC on top of your +10 ACC which FoD brings.

Conversions are multiplicative. It doesn't matter if the biggest or whichever part of it is used as "base" though. It's communtative.

Ya, that was my thought process and experience with a Crusader Crit build, +10 ACC with FoD, +10 ACC ring of flame, and +12 ACC with one handed style.  You do no miss and very rarely graze.  Even the Young Drake at the ruins on Maje was brought down easily due to high ACC and PEN.

 

I thought Devoted with Sword would be good for more crit damage but maybe I am off on this.

 

 

So crit stacking chance is confusing me now lol

 

Is it still worth for this type of build, taking say one handed style and tactical barrage?  Since you do not get 55% hit to crit what would the % be?

Edited November 14, 2018 by Torm51

[Enoch]

So crit stacking chance is confusing me now lol

 

Is it still worth for this type of build, taking say one handed style and tactical barrage?  Since you do not get 55% hit to crit what would the % be?

 

As I understand this, each source of conversion is processed one-by-one.  It checks one, if converted, you're done, and if not, it checks the next.  So, if you have 3 sources of h2c, at 25%, 15%, and 10% (I'm inventing numbers to illustrate because I don't remember precisely what chance the abilities you mention give you), the chance of a non-conversion is .75 * .85 * .9 = .574.  Subtract that from 1 and convert to a percentage to get your total h2c chance:  42.6%

[guildwriter]

 

So crit stacking chance is confusing me now lol

 

Is it still worth for this type of build, taking say one handed style and tactical barrage?  Since you do not get 55% hit to crit what would the % be?

 

As I understand this, each source of conversion is processed one-by-one.  It checks one, if converted, you're done, and if not, it checks the next.  So, if you have 3 sources of h2c, at 25%, 15%, and 10% (I'm inventing numbers to illustrate because I don't remember precisely what chance the abilities you mention give you), the chance of a non-conversion is .75 * .85 * .9 = .574.  Subtract that from 1 and convert to a percentage to get your total h2c chance:  42.6%

 

 

Yeah this is correct.  I remembered wrong.

[Boeroer]

 

So crit stacking chance is confusing me now lol

 

Is it still worth for this type of build, taking say one handed style and tactical barrage? Since you do not get 55% hit to crit what would the % be?

As I understand this, each source of conversion is processed one-by-one. It checks one, if converted, you're done, and if not, it checks the next. So, if you have 3 sources of h2c, at 25%, 15%, and 10% (I'm inventing numbers to illustrate because I don't remember precisely what chance the abilities you mention give you), the chance of a non-conversion is .75 * .85 * .9 = .574. Subtract that from 1 and convert to a percentage to get your total h2c chance: 42.6%

Yep

[Torm51]

So is it worth stacking hit to crit? With my non math mind I’m thinking well if you get the roll once it could be useful to roll again even if it’s less of a chance. Thoughts?

[Enoch]

So is it worth stacking hit to crit? With my non math mind I’m thinking well if you get the roll once it could be useful to roll again even if it’s less of a chance. Thoughts?

Depends on the opportunity cost.  It's never worthless, but at some point the extra effort to get more becomes counter-productive. 

 

For example, a Fighter-Berzerker in Frenzy (30%), with Disciplined Strikes active (25%), attacking a paralyzed enemy (25%), using 1-handed style with the appropriate ability (20%), wearing Fair Favor with an appropriate weapon (10%), and as a Hearth Orlan attacking a foe also targeted by an ally (10%) gets an aggregate 74.5% chance of converting any given hit to a crit.  You could equip the Bone Setter's Torc for another nominally-5% chance at H2C, but that would only upgrade your aggregate chance to 75.8%.  Even for a crit-driven character, you probably have better stuff you could be putting in your neck slot.

 

Also, considering this, note that, at best (i.e., If ACC-DEF is in the 0-49 range before adding the d100 RNG), only 49% or 50% of your attack rolls will Hit on the first pass, allowing H2C chances to proc.  (Tangential question:  does an attack roll result of exactly 50 graze or hit?  The in-game journal is ambiguous.)  So your aggregate H2C chance (again, at best) translates to roughly half that percentage of your total attacks turning into crits. 

Edited November 15, 2018 by Enoch

[Kaylon]

You should also keep in mind two other things:

- hits are at best 50% of your total number of attacks

- crits increase damage/duration by 25% and penetration by 50% (for another hypothetical 30% damage bonus)

 

The stacking rules make things even worse and without a great proc on crit I wouldn't even bother about crits.

 

Increasing your accuracy or debuffing enemies defenses are the best ways to increase your crit chance (and your dps).

[Torm51]

You should also keep in mind two other things:

- hits are at best 50% of your total number of attacks

- crits increase damage/duration by 25% and penetration by 50% (for another hypothetical 30% damage bonus)

 

The stacking rules make things even worse and without a great proc on crit I wouldn't even bother about crits.

 

Increasing your accuracy or debuffing enemies defenses are the best ways to increase your crit chance (and your dps).

Increasing ACC is the main idea behind the build so I guess that is covered. FoD +10, Ring that adds +10 to fire attacks (works wth FoD), one handed style +12 ACC.

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

You COULD also consider a Ranger/Paladin(probably Ghost Heart) because that would be another +20 Accuracy for what you're trying to do. Since it's one handed the damage won't be that great with pretty much any build, but if you take weapons that do something on crit(they also benefit from Int) you can have a very strong lockdown for bosses(Prone/Paralyzed all the time ignoring resistances) and select enemies with the Paladin utility still present. 

[Torm51]

I can’t find it in the patch notes what are the differences now between the styles? I know DW got bedded a little, what did they do to 2 handed and one handed?

Edited November 15, 2018 by Torm51

[Kaylon]

 

You should also keep in mind two other things:

- hits are at best 50% of your total number of attacks

- crits increase damage/duration by 25% and penetration by 50% (for another hypothetical 30% damage bonus)

 

The stacking rules make things even worse and without a great proc on crit I wouldn't even bother about crits.

 

Increasing your accuracy or debuffing enemies defenses are the best ways to increase your crit chance (and your dps).

Increasing ACC is the main idea behind the build so I guess that is covered. FoD +10, Ring that adds +10 to fire attacks (works wth FoD), one handed style +12 ACC.

 

Fighting one handed is indeed a good way to increase your crit chance but for what? Using 2 weapons or a 2 handed weapon gives more dps anyway...

FoD and the ring on the other hand is just gimmicky because how many times are you using FoD over a fight and what difference it will make? The ring makes sense on an evoker who has lots of AoE fire spells to spam or maybe for someone using firebrand.

[Torm51]

 

 

You should also keep in mind two other things:

- hits are at best 50% of your total number of attacks

- crits increase damage/duration by 25% and penetration by 50% (for another hypothetical 30% damage bonus)

 

The stacking rules make things even worse and without a great proc on crit I wouldn't even bother about crits.

 

Increasing your accuracy or debuffing enemies defenses are the best ways to increase your crit chance (and your dps).

Increasing ACC is the main idea behind the build so I guess that is covered. FoD +10, Ring that adds +10 to fire attacks (works wth FoD), one handed style +12 ACC.

Fighting one handed is indeed a good way to increase your crit chance but for what? Using 2 weapons or a 2 handed weapon gives more dps anyway...

FoD and the ring on the other hand is just gimmicky because how many times are you using FoD over a fight and what difference it will make? The ring makes sense on an evoker who has lots of AoE fire spells to spam or maybe for someone using firebrand.

First, thanks for the all the advice this has helped a ton! So the previous question:

Well, hitting stuff, critting is nice but I find that on PoTD is hard to consistently hit stuff in the early game. One handed helps a lot with that. Maybe one handed has diminishing return, late game when i will have less of an issue hitting things.

 

PS I don’t think the fire ring is gimmicky for a Paladin FoD is a cheap source of good damage and you are just going to hit more with it. Maybe that’s flawed logic I don’t know.

Can an evoker use more fire spells than a Paladin FoDs over the course of a fight?

Edited November 15, 2018 by Torm51

[Kaylon]

The idea is an AoE spell is affecting multiple targets and can do more damage than your 1h weapon, so +10acc will have certainly a bigger impact on a fight for an evoker. Also there are fire spells at almost every level for a wizard so he can benefit from it at least just as much as a paladin. For a paladin it might make sense to use the ring if you plan to take Sacred Immolation.