Challenge level in the game (NOT difficulty settings)

[bringingyouthefuture]

I think @xzar_monty is referring to a loss of agency that happened when RPGs switched from text-based interactions to multiple choice, and I feel you.  Funny the comment about the internet hints and game walk-throughs - I mean they always existed, you just went to the bookstore and bought the hint book, or if you were really desperate you could write the developer lol I sent a letter to Origin once asking for the password to get into the Dungeon Deceit (it might have been a different dungeon actually but I think it was Deceit) and yes they wrote back

 

I think if you like that type of gaming the first Divinty Original Sin has a lot of that but not so much the 2nd one - but personally these days I am not seeking them out in a game, they can be fun and rewarding but also annoying - I think gamers look online often because they are more interested in playing the other aspects of the game and not just because they can't solve the puzzle - I much more enjoy the character building, leveling up and outfitting my characters combined with a strong narrative, a cool world to explore and really good combat.  I respect all the opinions about POE2 but I disagree about a lot of the narrative critiques.  I find myself constantly entertained by the story and often pleasantly surprised by the great detail and breadth of character that they wrote into the plot - I don't mean character as in actors, but I mean the general character of the Deadfire, it has all the elements of a great story.  I mean how can you hate pirates???

 

I am always for a good puzzle / riddle / multiple-choice-holddown-tab-zoom-in-on-every-wall-cast-every-spell-in-the-book on the altar until it glows style then pull the lever, whoops wrong one you died quest, but after playing the first Pillars that left them out and I really didn't miss them that much, so I am not missing them much in this game either.  In terms of narrative, there is no way to argue that POE2 is a straightforward game from start to finish with little variety, choice or complicated decision making - or if you do I will disagree.

 

Can Obsidian do better?  I hope they can and they make a POE3 - I mean I am not against an even better narrative, an even better plot, and even better exploring, etc, maybe a puzzle or two but this game is good.

Edited October 21, 2018 by aaronghowell

[xzar_monty]

The loss of agency definitely has a lot to do with the move away from text-based interactions to multiple choice. That's an excellent point. Once you make that switch, you essentially have no choice but to make things an awful lot easier. I think it's a shame.

[asnjas]

Lol, what do you mean you could just buy the hint guide. Hint guides always being aroundn is like saying encyclodieas were

always around so people must have always searched for stuff when they had questions. Umm no. Google makes it drop dead easy to look up anything. This ease and accessibility play a huge part in people searching for sht today.

 

It is drop dead easy to solve puzzles so why plan so much time around them? Devs spend way more hours to implement and research ultra difficult puzzles when players bypass in a 10 sec google search.

 

Thats why devs go to other areas for difficulty. Puzzles do not add difficulty to games like how you think. Numbers do. Collect 5000 whale dongers and dodge 200 consecutive lightning strikes add difficulty that cannot be solved in 10 seconds online.

 

Umm yes you do change it for the sake of the "idiots." These idiots are buying the games. These idiots represent a larger portion of the ppl buying your game. You think if ultra "DIFFICULT" puzzles were the thing then games would hop on that sht. Plus, id really love to know how many times youve sat at a game when you were truly stuck instead of googling. I know its pointless to ask since no one gonna tell the truth. Do you really enjoy Uld puzzles as much as you think? Who knows how many " idiots" we truly have here.

 

You got so many man hours to put out a game you wanna spent time on ULD puzzles or combat graphics and skill trees?

 

If i gave you xxx amount of dollars to make a game with a profit and your paycheck riding on it then we will see how many puzzles you add cause you dont care about the idiots who ruin it.

Edited October 21, 2018 by asnjas

[Zaris]

asnjas you seem to be very frustrated by the fact that you’re one of the few people that actually would have to spend any time thinking about puzzles in computer games and instead googles the solutions.

Also time and time again people like xzar_monty, aargonhowell and myself wrote here that it’s not about puzzles themselves but the overall difficulty and amount of hand-holding, which you seem to be oblivious to.

People playing this kind of games don’t want grinding, so your point about collecting thousands of items for quests is moot; it’s just easy so lazy devs (or MMO devs) do it. But it’s not a feature you’d put in any promotional material, wouldn’t you? And if Obsidian listened to the whims of stupidest gamers they’d switch to making shooters or other skinner boxes; the fact that they keep to such a hard teritory as isometric RPGs suggests that they want to deliver a quality content for demanding audience with a bit better taste than an average moron with parent’s credit card and a Steam account. That’s why it’s a shame to see them dumb down and not give us more freedom in solving the problems in game (problems, not only puzzles: that includes quests, dialogues etc.). Hope the topic is a bit more clear now.

[bringingyouthefuture]

I don't know life is too short to go around assuming things about large swaths of people ... and about why Developers make the choices they do, but honest if you aren't getting what you want from games then step back, I went years without playing RPGs, and then when I find one that I like it gets me back into it and eventually I take a break again.  I mean there is a lot going on outside of this and there are a lot of amazing people (probably more amazing people than the other).

 

I mean I get your point with the internet but its funny I really can't complain about being able to look something up really quick, and hint books were pretty easy to get, they often put inserts into the game boxes promoting them and you could order them and get them pretty quick.  My point was only that the idea of walkthroughs started pretty soon after the first RPGs, I can't say when but they definitely had them back in 1988, so blaming the internet is like blaming a cell phone ...

 

As for me, it honest just depends on my mood whether I look up walkthroughs/hints or not, I tend to mostly solve them on my own because it is satisfying - but again I think the misconception about Deadfire being simplistic is because it took a step away from the normal RPG tropes of gameplay, and is doing something different with the way you approach.  For good or bad it is still hella fun.  Plus character building and combat is super above par ...

Edited October 22, 2018 by aaronghowell

[aktivb]

 

 

No, they have not always been insultingly easy.

 

In Baldur's Gate II, the mathematical puzzle given in the circus tent was not insultingly easy. It required a decent understanding of logic, and some capacity for calculation. Granted, you had the opportunity to not actually solve it by save-scumming and choosing one of the available options per save, and if that's how you wanted to go about it, fine. I absolutely didn't, and I remember spending about five minutes figuring it out. I loved it. Getting it right gave you a real sense of accomplishment.

 

That puzzle could be considered "insultingly easy" only if you have a PhD in math or physics.

 

 

Uh, from what I remember of BG most of the 'puzzles' were 'find a book/note with the answer but maybe not exactly in cleartext', 'find the missing piece', or some sort of riddle. The only non-trivial puzzle I can remember is where you play some variant of Nim. I couldn't remember the one 'in the circus tent', and, well, I think you are greatly overcomplicating it if you think it's anything but very simple. It's the one with the prince and the princess right?

[Xsanf]

It required a decent understanding of logic, and some capacity for calculation.

 

Why, it's a perfect built-in age restriction feature. We should allow playing games with nudity, violence, dark humor, etc. only to people with at least a bit of logic and calculation abilities (some people are away from adulting even in their thirties, and some teens can be rather smart and resourceful). Even if one just googles the solution, searching / advise following still requires some time and effort.