Low Constitution/Health for a Tank?

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

Hey hey, 

 

So, I posted a Bleak Walker/Trickster tank build a while back that has, once all bonuses are factored in, a base 10 Constitution and 10% extra HP. Without any additional modifiers, this results in 275 max HP. That'd be a little over 300 when/if I pick up the "Tough" trait, which seems a bit low. Admittedly, I'll have pretty solid Deflection and Defenses, as well as access to regeneration through my co-tank in Pallegina, but it feels like the early game is going to be pretty tough (That said, I sneak past most things anyway). 

 

Something I could do is knock two points each off of Perception, Intellect, and Resolve to give myself 6 extra Constitution, which would give me 350 HP - close to 400 with Tough. Though that doesn't feel like it'd count for that many attacks. My Marauder has something like that, and all it takes is a few hits to his poorly defended self to down him. 

 

So, is it more a matter of defenses, armor value, and health regeneration that determines how much damage you're able to take, and not raw HP numbers?  

[arkane83]

Effective Health = Health / Percent of Damage Taken

 

So if your armor reduces the damage you take to 25%, then it would be like

 

300/.25 = 1200 EHP

 

400/.25 = 1600 EHP

 

This doesn't even factor in deflection, just having 3 more armor than your opponents penetration. Factor in deflection and your EHP gap widens.

[thundercleese]

Other thing to keep in mind is increasing EHP while keeping actual HP low(ish) is generally better, as it increases the value of your healing. Ofc if you don't have healing then it's all the same.

Edited August 15, 2018 by thundercleese

[arkane83]

Other thing to keep in mind is increasing EHP while keeping actual HP low(ish) is generally better, as it increases the value of your healing. Ofc if you don't have healing then it's all the same.

Kinda. It's really more that the stats and items can go other places to make your character better.

 

More HP is never going to make your healing less effective. It just moves your health bar less, with the same amount of HPS.

 

The only thing this really effects is when you want to be blooded or near death. For those builds high hp is really great because it keeps you in those "zones" with less risk.

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

 

Other thing to keep in mind is increasing EHP while keeping actual HP low(ish) is generally better, as it increases the value of your healing. Ofc if you don't have healing then it's all the same.

Kinda. It's really more that the stats and items can go other places to make your character better.

 

More HP is never going to make your healing less effective. It just moves your health bar less, with the same amount of HPS.

 

The only thing this really effects is when you want to be blooded or near death. For those builds high hp is really great because it keeps you in those "zones" with less risk.

 

 

So basically things like Streetfighter/Barbarian/certain pieces of armor like the Bloody Links. I'm running a Holy Slayer right now. My human bonus is nice, but that's really just kind of there as an extra bonus. 

[thundercleese]

 

Other thing to keep in mind is increasing EHP while keeping actual HP low(ish) is generally better, as it increases the value of your healing. Ofc if you don't have healing then it's all the same.

Kinda. It's really more that the stats and items can go other places to make your character better.

 

More HP is never going to make your healing less effective. It just moves your health bar less, with the same amount of HPS.

 

The only thing this really effects is when you want to be blooded or near death. For those builds high hp is really great because it keeps you in those "zones" with less risk.

 

Not entirely. Let's say you have 1000 EHP - if you have 200 actual HP and you get healed for 40 HP, then you are getting healed by 200 EHP. If you have 400 actual HP, the same healing of 40 HP will only heal you 100 EHP.

 

The four defense stats and disproportionately OP (under)penetration values make this one of the worst games for trying to optimise around EHP however, so this argument is kinda pointless.

 

If you have enough HP to take a couple stray crits, plus healing to recover from it then you should be fine investing in other stats/gear/etc.

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

 

 

Other thing to keep in mind is increasing EHP while keeping actual HP low(ish) is generally better, as it increases the value of your healing. Ofc if you don't have healing then it's all the same.

Kinda. It's really more that the stats and items can go other places to make your character better.

 

More HP is never going to make your healing less effective. It just moves your health bar less, with the same amount of HPS.

 

The only thing this really effects is when you want to be blooded or near death. For those builds high hp is really great because it keeps you in those "zones" with less risk.

 

Not entirely. Let's say you have 1000 EHP - if you have 200 actual HP and you get healed for 40 HP, then you are getting healed by 200 EHP. If you have 400 actual HP, the same healing of 40 HP will only heal you 100 EHP.

 

The four defense stats and disproportionately OP (under)penetration values make this one of the worst games for trying to optimise around EHP however, so this argument is kinda pointless.

 

If you have enough HP to take a couple stray crits, plus healing to recover from it then you should be fine investing in other stats/gear/etc.

 

 

And since Bleak Walker/Trickster doesn't get really any benefit from being bloodied/near death, aside from racial benefits, 300 HP is fine. 

[Tommy1984]

My last "Tank" playthrough as Herald (on PotD Solo Triple Crown All Challenges), had 3 Base Constitution. This was increased by various bonuses from items and rest bonuses, so that the character ended with 250-350 HP. Healing was fast enough to outheal all damage, so he could survive the whole game with only 3 Base Constitution. But having more health, would have been more comfortable throughout the game. So high constitution is not necessary on this kind of tank, but if you can afford it then just do it.

[mosspit]

Other thing to keep in mind is increasing EHP while keeping actual HP low(ish) is generally better, as it increases the value of your healing. Ofc if you don't have healing then it's all the same.

Good explanation. CON is mostly there to ensure the survival through burst dmg. Otherwise healing (or rather healing rate) is more important if it can outpace the dmg received.

Edited August 15, 2018 by mosspit

[Theosupus]

I typically choose one or the other (defenses or HPs) to push super high (on non glass-cannon builds). I've found that having both as high as possible is usually defense overkill and negatively impacts other aspects (dps, etc.).

 

If you go low defense high HPs then you need Crit damage protection, if you go the opposite you need to make sure you have affliction resistances and quick healing options.

 

If you pump both defenses and HPs then that character is pigeonholed into tanking (holding engagements) which isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long you plan the party around the fact one guy won't do damage.

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

I typically choose one or the other (defenses or HPs) to push super high (on non glass-cannon builds). I've found that having both as high as possible is usually defense overkill and negatively impacts other aspects (dps, etc.).

 

If you go low defense high HPs then you need Crit damage protection, if you go the opposite you need to make sure you have affliction resistances and quick healing options.

 

If you pump both defenses and HPs then that character is pigeonholed into tanking (holding engagements) which isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long you plan the party around the fact one guy won't do damage.

 

Definitely not doing that. My guy is rocking 15 Might, with all gear and buffs taken into account - I don't think that's bad at all for a non-spellcaster especially with Rogue damage boosts.