The red hand arquebus needs a huge nerf.

[Teclis23]

This weapon is insanely overpowered. Please nerf it.

 

What is the point in having a gun that does twice the dps of all other guns? It just makes all other guns obsolete.

 

Not only this you can pretty much steal it for free and have access to it at level 6 or 7.

 

Please nerf

[1TTFFSSE]

Yeah the +20%/+40% damage increases applying to EVERYTHING and even when the weapon is not equipped should be looked at. Also double tap and knockback is strong but that is less of an issue than the weird damage stacking which is very easily exploited. 

It should probably as a double-barreled "shotgun" do less damage per its two shots than a real arquebus but maybe do the best of pierce/crush damage? 

Edited August 13, 2018 by 1TTFFSSE

[Teclis23]

Using this weapon is the equivalent of having a sixth party member . You do the extra damage of another person in your group

 

Just stupid OP

[SChin]

Hey everyone!

 

Our resident Systems Designer would love to nerf more items.  The things mentioned about The Red Hand are indeed in our system for investigation and potential fix in the near future.  Keep an eye out on the latest patch notes to see when that might be.

 

Thanks for the help!

[Xsanf]

Balance is not about nerfing items into oblivion. Rangers already are a crappy class, without a decent weapon they'll become even more crappy. Maybe, increasing reload time/higher self-damage penalty/some accuracy penalty will make a deal, dunno.

[Boeroer]

So the Red Hand can only be used by rangers?

[house2fly]

Unless I missed an updated version of the helwax mold, only one character can use this gun at a time. Therefore it by no means makes all other guns obsolete. It just makes one other gun obsolete - the gun you would have used if this one wasn't in the game. I really wish people wouldn't post about game balance issues on the technical support forum for a game which needs every ounce of energy possible spent on actual technical fixes

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

The Red Hand isn't even the optimal weapon for most  ranged builds. People have run damage tests lately and Ascendant Ciphers using the Red Hand end up doing like a third of the damage that Ciphers using Kitchen Stove do, much less Magran Priest fire nuker builds etc. See https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/104924-dps-tests-of-some-classesmulticlasses/

 

It's definitely good but considering the downsides (increased damage received; single damage type; etc.) it's not that dramatically overpowered vs. other optimized builds. The main advantage of the Red Hand is that it's relatively simple to understand and use well compared to those more optimized builds. What really makes the top-end guns take off is the ability to drive through to hit multiple targets (either via AOE or drive-through to next targets) and Red Hand doesn't have that so at the top end it underperforms vs other missile weapons. 

 

if you really want to tweak guns, make the Arquebus do Crushing damage type. If you actually look at the numbers, the Red Hand underperforms. It feels very satisfying because the double-fire effect is cool, but that's not actually the same thing as being overpowered. You gotta look at the numbers.

Edited August 14, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[thundercleese]

IMO there are only two things about it that could be considered OP; the stacking damage buff that remains even when it isn't equipped, and the fact you can AFK win vessel fights with the Double Tap enchant.

 

It is a strong weapon, but there are certainly other ranged weapons that are on-par/better than it, and just as easily attainable.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

IMO there are only two things about it that could be considered OP; the stacking damage buff that remains even when it isn't equipped, and the fact you can AFK win vessel fights with the Double Tap enchant.

 

It is a strong weapon, but there are certainly other ranged weapons that are on-par/better than it, and just as easily attainable.

 

 

Yeah, I could see removing the buff if it were completely un-equipped (not switched out from a different weapon slot, but put into inventory) as a legit change just to discourage metagameyness.

[thundercleese]

 

IMO there are only two things about it that could be considered OP; the stacking damage buff that remains even when it isn't equipped, and the fact you can AFK win vessel fights with the Double Tap enchant.

 

It is a strong weapon, but there are certainly other ranged weapons that are on-par/better than it, and just as easily attainable.

 

 

Yeah, I could see removing the buff if it were completely un-equipped (not switched out from a different weapon slot, but put into inventory) as a legit change just to discourage metagameyness.

 

At the very least it shouldn't be able to be passed around so that every single person has +20/40% damage (I try to avoid doing this personally as it just feels like cheating). So like when you equip it on someone it checks to see if the buff is active on another party member; if it is then it either removes that buff, or prevents the new holder from gaining it.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

At the very least it shouldn't be able to be passed around so that every single person has +20/40% damage (I try to avoid doing this personally as it just feels like cheating). So like when you equip it on someone it checks to see if the buff is active on another party member; if it is then it either removes that buff, or prevents the new holder from gaining it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hahah, yeah, good point I tend to not even think about that sort of thing because it's so ridiculous.

[Teclis23]

Kitchen stove doing mor

The Red Hand isn't even the optimal weapon for most  ranged builds. People have run damage tests lately and Ascendant Ciphers using the Red Hand end up doing like a third of the damage that Ciphers using Kitchen Stove do, much less Magran Priest fire nuker builds etc. See https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/104924-dps-tests-of-some-classesmulticlasses/

 

It's definitely good but considering the downsides (increased damage received; single damage type; etc.) it's not that dramatically overpowered vs. other optimized builds. The main advantage of the Red Hand is that it's relatively simple to understand and use well compared to those more optimized builds. What really makes the top-end guns take off is the ability to drive through to hit multiple targets (either via AOE or drive-through to next targets) and Red Hand doesn't have that so at the top end it underperforms vs other missile weapons. 

 

if you really want to tweak guns, make the Arquebus do Crushing damage type. If you actually look at the numbers, the Red Hand underperforms. It feels very satisfying because the double-fire effect is cool, but that's not actually the same thing as being overpowered. You gotta look at the numbers.

You think kitchen stove does more dps then red hand? You are very very wrong

 

Thats no where near the truth.

 

I actuallu did a playthrough with both these weapns getting used and the redhand hand completely blew it away. The red hand was so strong that i won most encounters off its back. If a caster equiped it i didnt even bother casting. There was no point because most spells werent capable of sustaining more damage then it. Even when i equiped it on a wizard i didnt bother casting most of the time

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

You think kitchen stove does more dps then red hand? You are very very wrong

 

Thats no where near the truth.

 

I actuallu did a playthrough with both these weapns getting used and the redhand hand completely blew it away. The red hand was so strong that i won most encounters off its back. If a caster equiped it i didnt even bother casting. There was no point because most spells werent capable of sustaining more damage then it. Even when i equiped it on a wizard i didnt bother casting most of the time

 

 

 

If you use it appropriately yeah it will. It depends a lot on build is the thing.  If you're just playing a generic Ascendant sure the red hand is a very solid choice but there are a lot of tweaked multiclass builds that put it to shame using other weapons (as per the links). 

 

It's a good weapon that lets basic pure Ascendants do pretty well but it's nowhere near the peak optimal build right now. The main advantage it has is convenience and ease of use for single-classed Ascendants who don't want to bother carefully plotting out something more optimized. All you're really doing by dramatically nerfing the Red Hand would be pushing single-class Ascendants further back behind multiclass optimized builds. 

 

As above, the real source of potent damage for ranged weapons, especially at the top end of the game on PotD, is driving-flight type effects or AoE effects, and the Red Hand has neither. Other weapons can hit 6+ targets in the time it takes the Red Hand to shoot twice. The Red Hand just feels more powerful because the effects hit the primary target you're looking at. 

 

Another example, see this "Banshee" Ascendant/Berserker build:

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/104892-build-witch-the-banshee-build-very-high-damage-berserkerascendant-rdps-caster/

 

Uses kitchen stove and a wand. Red Hand only shows up as a third weapon (basically to metagame the damage bonus then switch it out, which I agree is lame, or for situations where you need very high penetration).

Edited August 15, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Xsanf]

Well, maybe the best method to "nerf" this item is raising the difficulty of the lock on the chest it's stored in - Red Hand is cool because it is easy to obtain at low level (if you have any Mechanics specialist in your party). That'll be enough.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Xsanf

[M4xw0lf]

Well, maybe the best method to "nerf" this item is raising the difficulty of the lock on the chest it's stored in - Red Hand is cool because it is easy to obtain at low level (if you have any Mechanics specialist in your party). That'll be enough.

You can still buy it, it's not that expensive.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Well, maybe the best method to "nerf" this item is raising the difficulty of the lock on the chest it's stored in - Red Hand is cool because it is easy to obtain at low level (if you have any Mechanics specialist in your party). That'll be enough.

 

 

Wouldn't work -- you can get to level 10 or so without any significant combat just by doing Neketaka sidequests, and at level ten you can have 16 mechanics fairly readily (10 levels +2 rogue or cipher + 2 putty +2 gloves) not even counting lockpicks.

 

Plus, the Red Hand has most of its effectiveness at lower levels -- above 16 or so it's less effective at least for Ciphers as it won't top out your focus meter with its initial salvo (this is why kitchen sink + thunderous report is superior, it can do so in one blast).  

[Boeroer]

Kaylon showed (with math - no need to discuss this) that Aamiira's Legacy does more dps than the Red Hand. Maybe nerf that as well?

 

The Red Hand is nice - for an arquebus. But it's not that OP if you compare it to certain other weapons that nobody calls OP (like the example above).

The only thing that might need a nerf is the weird damage bonus that gets applied to other weapons etc. as well.

[pi2repsion]

I can't help thinking that if the compulsive "it is OP, nerf it!" brigade had existed back in 1999, and if developers had actually paid attention to them, we'd never have seen Carsomyr in Baldur's Gate II, and that would be a crying shame. It was ridiculously powerful for the stage of the game you got it, and given the right party member might (with an upgrade) last you all the way to the end in ToB if you inclined that way. And let's not get started on Crom Faeyr, Staff of the Magi, Blackrazor, Spectral Brand...

 

 

Well, perhaps it is just me. I like occasionally finding exceptionally powerful items that put most of the competition for their use to shame; I do prefer it when acquiring them is a challenge, but even when it is not it is nice when something stands out enough from the general run of items that it becomes truly memorable.

 

EDIT: Which, by the way, I appreciate Obsidian taking a stab at in POE2.

Edited August 15, 2018 by pi2repsion

[thundercleese]

Yeah in another thread they claimed that was supposed to have been fixed to only have one set of stacks; clearly it hasn't.

 

I imagine with all that your Maia goes down if someone sneezes at her.

[Lampros]

Using this weapon is the equivalent of having a sixth party member . You do the extra damage of another person in your group

 

Just stupid OP

 

I hate to be ad hominem, but this is a dumb statement.

 

 

The Red Hand isn't even the optimal weapon for most  ranged builds. People have run damage tests lately and Ascendant Ciphers using the Red Hand end up doing like a third of the damage that Ciphers using Kitchen Stove do, much less Magran Priest fire nuker builds etc. See https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/104924-dps-tests-of-some-classesmulticlasses/

 

It's definitely good but considering the downsides (increased damage received; single damage type; etc.) it's not that dramatically overpowered vs. other optimized builds. The main advantage of the Red Hand is that it's relatively simple to understand and use well compared to those more optimized builds. What really makes the top-end guns take off is the ability to drive through to hit multiple targets (either via AOE or drive-through to next targets) and Red Hand doesn't have that so at the top end it underperforms vs other missile weapons. 

 

if you really want to tweak guns, make the Arquebus do Crushing damage type. If you actually look at the numbers, the Red Hand underperforms. It feels very satisfying because the double-fire effect is cool, but that's not actually the same thing as being overpowered. You gotta look at the numbers.

 

This is well-put. I had a reaction like the OP when I first saw this weapon, but upon actual testing it is not over-powered. But as you say, its power is simple to understand.

[Boeroer]

I agree.

 

By the way: it's futile to address Teclis23 directly. That account is put on ice and the user opened up a new one named "bigbazoopa".

 

The Red Hand got nerfed in the meantime. Well - more like fixed, not nerfed. It's not as good anymore as it used to be (because of a bug). Still great though.