Ansalons Armor Tier List

[Boeroer]

 

That ring that gives you +2 defense for every enemy that engages you: great against a bunch of Xaurips, useless against a bunch of tigers (don't have engagement). And so on.

*Entonia Signet Ring is supposed to give you +2 Defense per engaged enemy.

No. That ring gives you +2 defense for every enemy who engages you - not the other way round. Like I explicitly explained with xaurips/tigers as example. And it works.

[Boeroer]

@Ansalon: I gave constructive criticism - because I didn't simply say "hey it's crap" but wrote down why I think your lists are rather pointless (at least for me) and what could be improved.

 

I also didn't claim that you got infos from wiki and in-game descriptions: you wrote so yourself.

 

Calling that "hate" makes you look like a sensitive plant and not like somebody who really wants to discuss his stuff. I gave no insults, no personal attacks but just my personal opinion which in this case might feel harsh. But that doesn't mean I hate or that I don't appreciate the work you might have put into. I just don't think that the form you chose to present your work is very useful. That, and that your research isn't thoroughly done.

 

If I wouldn't care at all or simply "hate" I wouldn't put that much time into answering to your stuff, naming examples and so on.

 

I'm also not your boss. In your comparison I would be a colleague who says "it's pointless because X, maybe would be better to put it like Y".

[Ansalon]

Humility: 20% resist against two damage types is low tier? Do you realize how good this is if you build a bit around it?

 

Again a list that was done with little in-game experience.

There are 8 damage  types in the game. This adds resistance to two of them (albeit they are two of the most common ones). But, assuming you are putting it on a backliner, you are adding a stat (tankiness) to a role that doesn't necessarily need it. I guess you could make it work on a frontline dps aswell but there are just so many good alternatives you can grab early game if you want a low recovery frontline armor, or a high recovery super tanky armor. Again you claim its done with little in-game experience which is a claim you make with no evidence. I do agree that putting it into tier - D might be harsh. Please, if you have a suggestion for a build/situation it is consistently good, then I would be happy to hear a civil well thought out response.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Ansalon

[mant2si]

 

Humility: 20% resist against two damage types is low tier? Do you realize how good this is if you build a bit around it?

 

Again a list that was done with little in-game experience.

There are 8 damage  types in the game. This adds resistance to two of them (albeit they are two of the most common ones). But, assuming you are putting it on a backliner, you are adding a stat (tankiness) to a role that doesn't necessarily need it. I guess you could make it work on a frontline dps aswell but there are just so many good alternatives you can grab early game if you want a low recovery frontline armor, or a high recovery super tanky armor. Again you claim its done with little in-game experience which is a claim you make with no evidence. I do agree that putting it into tier - D might be harsh. Please, if you have a suggestion for a build/situation it is consistently good, then I would be happy to hear a civil well thought out response.

 

There a general problem with your guide, your B-S system will make new players misunderstand armor mechanics. You can classify armor by type, write few words about build that can use it..., but now its look like you even didn't check builds list on this forum and only want advertise your own content

 

Lets me write some example what I expect from your guide

 

Heavy armor - usually used by tank builds or builds that can overcome recovery speed penalty

 

Tip: To overcome recovery speed penalty use Abraham pet or Armor Grace + Pet (didn't remember pet name)

• Patinated Plate - good vs group of melee enemies with high attack speed and middle fortitude, bad vs enemies that has crush/shock damage (builds list with this armor)
• Blackened Plate Armor - good vs enemy that has very high AR because armor passive stack with any other AR reduction debuff (builds list with this armor)

Edited August 12, 2018 by mant2si

[Boeroer]

By the way - and that Ansalon got right but was critized - Miscreant's Leather is the best dps armor. That's because if you use Cutthroat Cosmo (or Abraham) the recovery penalty of the leather will be smaller than the 10% speed bonus you get from it. That means that you will be faster with Miscr. Leather + Cutthroat Cosmo than with a robe (+Cutthroat Cosmo ). AND you will have more AR as a bonus on top.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Boeroer

[Ansalon]

Most of the posters on this forum are diehard fans and have more knowledge about the game than anywhere else on the net. Combine that with the fact that tier list discussions are always volatile with a lot of differing opinions, and you're presenting yourself as an authority when you clearly haven't tested everything you've listed, you really open yourself up to a lot of criticism.

I guess thats what I get for posting on a forum I'm unfamiliar with. It's abit confusing when people claim that I'm representing myself both as an authority and at the same time claim I have no experience. In three out of four post I even prefaced by saying its based upon my opinion and testing ;/ I guess thats what happens when different people make different assumptions of my intention. My armor tier list is definitely the one I've done the least amount of testing with, mainly because a lot of the enchants are fairly straightforward so making educated guesses are easier. You probably didn't intend it this way but saying "Most of the posters on this forum are diehard fans and have more knowledge about the game than anywhere else on the net" kind of comes across as abit elitist even if it is true or not. The guides wasn't intended for someone who has sunk 300 hours into a game, more of a quick reference list for someone wanting to do their own theorycrafting and to provoke discussion.

[Ansalon]

By the way - and that Ansalon got right but was critized - Miscreant's Leather is the best dps armor. That's because if you use Cutthroat Cosmo (or Abraham) the recovery penalty of the leather will be smaller than the 10% speed bonus you get from it. That means that you will be faster with Miscr. Leather + Cutthroat Cosmo than with a robe (+Cutthroat Cosmo ). AND you will have more AR as a bonus on top.

My claim was supposed to be this item is the one who has the best mix of survivability/recovery time for a dpser. I'm assuming most people understand that 0% recovery of a robe is faster then 10% recovery of this armor

[Ansalon]

 

 

Humility: 20% resist against two damage types is low tier? Do you realize how good this is if you build a bit around it?

 

Again a list that was done with little in-game experience.

There are 8 damage  types in the game. This adds resistance to two of them (albeit they are two of the most common ones). But, assuming you are putting it on a backliner, you are adding a stat (tankiness) to a role that doesn't necessarily need it. I guess you could make it work on a frontline dps aswell but there are just so many good alternatives you can grab early game if you want a low recovery frontline armor, or a high recovery super tanky armor. Again you claim its done with little in-game experience which is a claim you make with no evidence. I do agree that putting it into tier - D might be harsh. Please, if you have a suggestion for a build/situation it is consistently good, then I would be happy to hear a civil well thought out response.

 

There a general problem with your guide, your B-S system will make new players misunderstand armor mechanics. You can classify armor by type, write few words about build that can use it..., but now its look like you even didn't check builds list on this forum and only want advertise your own content

 

Lets me write some example what I expect from your guide

 

Heavy armor - usually used by tank builds or builds that can overcome recovery speed penalty

 

Tip: To overcome recovery speed penalty use Abraham pet or Armor Grace + Pet (didn't remember pet name)

• Patinated Plate - good vs group of melee enemies with high attack speed and middle fortitude, bad vs enemies that has crush/shock damage (builds list with this armor)
• Blackened Plate Armor - good vs enemy that has very high AR because armor passive stack with any other AR reduction debuff (builds list with this armor)

 

I have only read a small portion of discussions on this forum. This forum is intended for anyone who is interested in Pillars of Eternity to use, not just diehard hardcore fans to post in. Neither is there any reason someone should have to be up to date on every discusssion going on in this forum before posting their opinions. And yes i'm well aware of Armored Grace and Pets. I don't understand why you think I am obligated to format my post according to your preference. In future posts I will take feedback into account but that doesn't mean I will make massive changes to the content I want to put out because a few people gets their panties twisted in a bunch.

[1TTFFSSE]

By the way - and that Ansalon got right but was critized - Miscreant's Leather is the best dps armor. That's because if you use Cutthroat Cosmo (or Abraham) the recovery penalty of the leather will be smaller than the 10% speed bonus you get from it. That means that you will be faster with Miscr. Leather + Cutthroat Cosmo than with a robe (+Cutthroat Cosmo ). AND you will have more AR as a bonus on top.

High Harbinger's Robes begs to defer.

 

Also weapon switching on 4 weapon slots fire arms with Fleshmender and never reloading. 

Edited August 12, 2018 by 1TTFFSSE

[Raven Darkholme]

If you didn't rate items by something silly like S-Tier etc your lists might be informative for new players.

So far I have not seen a list full of flaws in the rating, which would not matter if you didn't rate items you haven't even tested.

I decided to post in the armour list, because here the rating is the worst by far.

Not only are the best armours like patinated and blackened rated very low, the reasoning for your S-tier armours is very flawed for Deadfire, "highest dps".

This game has as many people already posted, several pets, that not only reduce the recovery of armor, no the best part is, the heavier the armor, the stronger the pet effect.

Gaining 0.2 seconds recovery between a heavy plate and a light armor is most likely the best result you will get if you ahve decent or even high dex.

Sadly you forgot to mention that armor class is much more potent in Deadfire than it was in Poe 1, having no pen results in a 75%+ damage loss for the enemy.

 

Moral of the story:

Don't rate items you never tested.

Let alone in a game you either don't fully understand the mechanics or don't care to explain them to the only people who might find your lists helpful: beginners.

[Dorftek]

Dancer outfits! Where are the dancer outfits?!

[Ansalon]

If you didn't rate items by something silly like S-Tier etc your lists might be informative for new players.

So far I have not seen a list full of flaws in the rating, which would not matter if you didn't rate items you haven't even tested.

I decided to post in the armour list, because here the rating is the worst by far.

Not only are the best armours like patinated and blackened rated very low, the reasoning for your S-tier armours is very flawed for Deadfire, "highest dps".

This game has as many people already posted, several pets, that not only reduce the recovery of armor, no the best part is, the heavier the armor, the stronger the pet effect.

Gaining 0.2 seconds recovery between a heavy plate and a light armor is most likely the best result you will get if you ahve decent or even high dex.

Sadly you forgot to mention that armor class is much more potent in Deadfire than it was in Poe 1, having no pen results in a 75%+ damage loss for the enemy.

 

Moral of the story:

Don't rate items you never tested.

Let alone in a game you either don't fully understand the mechanics or don't care to explain them to the only people who might find your lists helpful: beginners.

 At some point making your tank even tankier will lose a lot of value, especially since most heals are AoE in this game. For instance using patinated plate with 70% recovery means your tank is basically contributing almost nothing other then damage soaking (unless he is a chanter). Put a Reckless Brigandine and a lot of engagement slots (some builds can reach 9ish with items) and suddenly you are sat with a 45% action speed bonus at the start of the fight, meaning you can contribute with a lot of utility like for instance CC. It's a fair criticism of my armour list that i value low recovery over survivability. I am happy to discuss this part. The list was never intended to be an in depth look at the mechanics behind armor itself, and I see no reason why it has to be. This guide does not have to exist in a vacuum. As I said earlier the reason this list is the least thorough is because the mechanics are more straightforward then on a lot of weapons.

 

Why is putting the armors in to a comparative category a problem? There are clear cut cases where some armors are just straight up bad. Why is there a need to pretend that all items in this game is equally viable.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Ansalon

[Raven Darkholme]

Did you even read my post?

Patinated Plate with any of the pets that reduce armor recovery like Cosmo or Abraham (there is at least 2 more) will have less than half a second more recovery than light armor, as long as your dex is decent.

(which it should be if you're so worried about recovery)

My current Solo Paladin/Monk has 0.3s attack and 1.6s recovery time with Patinated Plate, if it was a fighter it would be 0.2 less recovery, if I used light armor it would be 0.2s less.

If it was a fighter wearing light armor it would only be 0.3s saved, this is called diminishing returns.

 

With light armor there will be no enemy on upscaled PotD which has no pen and gets 75% damage penalty, with patinated and a tanky class like paladin there wil be a lot of enemies doing 2 damage per hit.

This has nothing to do with tanks, but the pets having more favourable returns the heavier the armor and diminishing returns the lighter the armor.

Do you consider the 0.3s attack and 1.6s recovery of my patinated plate wearing char slow? How much faster ar your chars wearing light armor?

Edited August 13, 2018 by Raven Darkholme

[mant2si]

Not only that, but Reckless Brigandine progression is non linear, and you can't fill all 9 slot (not sure about this value), Reckless Brigandine will give you (20 - 25)% Action Speed in average, for fighter classes this mean 17% recovery speed. 17% situational recovery speed or 30% to stun retaliation and 75% damage reduction for all range attacks :D

[VXer]

Why is putting the armors in to a comparative category a problem? There are clear cut cases where some armors are just straight up bad. Why is there a need to pretend that all items in this game is equally viable.

Probably because the list isn't exhaustive as to why those items are superior to another. Not everyone will create the same build, with the same item set and by building a "tier-list" you're taking away from that. Sure, Miscreant Leather is a good armor choice for X reasons when utilizing Y build choices. 

 

But - It's value is undermined with other item combinations on a different build result in a more optimized setup. Because there exists so many build design choices, a generalist rating system simply cannot be accurate beyond treating it as a personal opinion. That seems to be the general gripe with the ratings used for certain armor choices.

 

It's also unfair to state their ranking is not in a vacuum, but discount build choices (besides your own) and other items which compliment them beyond their individual characteristics and expect the current ranking to go uncontested. It echoes some of the statements pointing to a lack of thorough testing. 

 

I understand what you were trying to accomplish and as a newish Deadfire player, I appreciate it - but as a hardcore gamer as well this list doesn't provide me any additional information beyond player bias towards a certain build style. 

 

Sorry.

 

 

 

[Ansalon]

@Ansalon: I gave constructive criticism - because I didn't simply say "hey it's crap" but wrote down why I think your lists are rather pointless (at least for me) and what could be improved.

 

I also didn't claim that you got infos from wiki and in-game descriptions: you wrote so yourself.

 

Calling that "hate" makes you look like a sensitive plant and not like somebody who really wants to discuss his stuff. I gave no insults, no personal attacks but just my personal opinion which in this case might feel harsh. But that doesn't mean I hate or that I don't appreciate the work you might have put into. I just don't think that the form you chose to present your work is very useful. That, and that your research isn't thoroughly done.

 

If I wouldn't care at all or simply "hate" I wouldn't put that much time into answering to your stuff, naming examples and so on.

 

I'm also not your boss. In your comparison I would be a colleague who says "it's pointless because X, maybe would be better to put it like Y".

Fair enough, a colleague then. If a colleague asked your opinion on a draft of a proposal he was gonna make, you wouldn't say that it his proposal is useless and then imply he has put little to no effort in it. That would be unneccesarily antagonistic. Even if you came with good pointers after it is human nature to not be as receptive to your ideas afterwards.

[Ansalon]

Not only that, but Reckless Brigandine progression is non linear, and you can't fill all 9 slot (not sure about this value), Reckless Brigandine will give you (20 - 25)% Action Speed in average, for fighter classes this mean 17% recovery speed. 17% situational recovery speed or 30% to stun retaliation and 75% damage reduction for all range attacks :D

 Where are you getting the 75% damage reduction for all range attacks ? Are you assuming that Patinated Plate will always cause underpenetration and Reckless Brigandine never will, or am i misunderstanding you? Because the way you seem to word it seems rather biased. It seems to me you are pointing out the best case scenario of Patinated Plate and comparing it to the average scenario of Reckless Brigandine.

[Ansalon]

Did you even read my post?

Patinated Plate with any of the pets that reduce armor recovery like Cosmo or Abraham (there is at least 2 more) will have less than half a second more recovery than light armor, as long as your dex is decent.

(which it should be if you're so worried about recovery)

My current Solo Paladin/Monk has 0.3s attack and 1.6s recovery time with Patinated Plate, if it was a fighter it would be 0.2 less recovery, if I used light armor it would be 0.2s less.

If it was a fighter wearing light armor it would only be 0.3s saved, this is called diminishing returns.

 

With light armor there will be no enemy on upscaled PotD which has no pen and gets 75% damage penalty, with patinated and a tanky class like paladin there wil be a lot of enemies doing 2 damage per hit.

This has nothing to do with tanks, but the pets having more favourable returns the heavier the armor and diminishing returns the lighter the armor.

Do you consider the 0.3s attack and 1.6s recovery of my patinated plate wearing char slow? How much faster ar your chars wearing light armor?

You are not representing the full reason why the recovery time is so low. It's because monks offer a ton of action speed bonuses, and you don't point out what weapon you use. With the information you are giving me you could be comparing the action speed of a one handed dagger, with multiple self buffs plate user to a two handed Great Sword, no buffs, robe wearer.

[mant2si]

 

Not only that, but Reckless Brigandine progression is non linear, and you can't fill all 9 slot (not sure about this value), Reckless Brigandine will give you (20 - 25)% Action Speed in average, for fighter classes this mean 17% recovery speed. 17% situational recovery speed or 30% to stun retaliation and 75% damage reduction for all range attacks :D

 Where are you getting the 75% damage reduction for all range attacks ? Are you assuming that Patinated Plate will always cause underpenetration and Reckless Brigandine never will, or am i misunderstanding you? Because the way you seem to word it seems rather biased. It seems to me you are pointing out the best case scenario of Patinated Plate and comparing it to the average scenario of Reckless Brigandine.

 

Because all range weapon has pierce damage, and Reckless Brigandine has 4 less pierce armor, this mean 1 - 2 skeleton ranger will shred you on the pieces, no matter how much you AS you has

 

>  It seems to me you are pointing out the best case scenario of Patinated Plate and comparing it to the average scenario of Reckless Brigandine.

 

All enemies ranger weapon usually has Exceptional quality and ~(9 - 10) + (2 - 4) AR from PotD scaling - which mean each +1 armor multiplicative (yes damage reduction is multiplicative) reduce incoming damage by 25%, the simplest way to make your front-line get +75% damage reduction is take one potion of magic shield

 

This is average scenario for Patinated Plate, I played only solo with DD mod and I have Build around this armor, I know about what I talking, I even recorded a lot of videos with this armor

 

It make you near immune to most of melee guys in the game

 

> Average scenario of Reckless Brigandine.

 

As I told this armor is completely useless for frontline without deflection stacking or unbending from fighter, on this forum we also discussion about  Brigandine, and average speed bonus is something like 17% recovery speed 

 

Edited August 13, 2018 by mant2si

[Ansalon]

I think Effigy Husk should be S tier and Swift Hunter's Garb a tier lower but other than that looks good.

Why would you rate Effigys Husk that highly? Most of its effects are based on you getting hit, and if you are wearing a robe you probably don't want to be getting hit.Is it for the immunity to might/perception affliction?

[Ansalon]

 

By the way - and that Ansalon got right but was critized - Miscreant's Leather is the best dps armor. That's because if you use Cutthroat Cosmo (or Abraham) the recovery penalty of the leather will be smaller than the 10% speed bonus you get from it. That means that you will be faster with Miscr. Leather + Cutthroat Cosmo than with a robe (+Cutthroat Cosmo ). AND you will have more AR as a bonus on top.

High Harbinger's Robes begs to defer.

 

Also weapon switching on 4 weapon slots fire arms with Fleshmender and never reloading. 

 

List isn't updated for BoW.

[pi2repsion]

@Ansalon, the problem with your statement "Why is putting the armors in to a comparative category a problem? There are clear cut cases where some armors are just straight up bad. Why is there a need to pretend that all items in this game is equally viable." is that you are likely to find a great many people in this forum who outright disagree with your notion that such clear cut cases exist, or at least that the cases you find clear cut are such in the first place.

 

As an example, take your trash tier, which contains Deltro's Cage. You look at it and see "+2 All Electricity Power Levels could have been great on Fury (Druid subclass) but 55% recovery time makes it garbage", which means that you've dismissed a very, very, powerful armour for some kinds of druids out of hand due to being overly concerned with the recovery penalty.

 

Deltro's Cage is probably the best armour in the game if you want an electric demigod in your party. It is not an armour that (in your words) "can go up or down a tier depending if you use them in a specific build", it is an armour that goes right to the top when used correctly and is pretty poor when not.

 

Somebody with just a bit more experience in the game would say, "increased power levels is one of the most powerful properties on any item for activated abilities so long as the user makes good use of it, and +2 electricity screams druid, and a free Relentless Storm via enchant is good, and PL bonuses stack so that stacks with +3 storm power from Darryn's Voulge on a druid on all spells that are both electricity and storm, and there are a few other sources of electricity damage in the game on uniques, some of them very powerful (and best of all, they can be gotten in the early game)", would try it out, and would discover that running around with +5 PL to electrical storms is absurdly powerful. The recovery penalty isn't nice, but we can get around that, mostly. This can work nicely for a Fury or a Fury/Evoker, but while powerful it feels a bit clunky even with maxed dex and Abraham pet. Still, heavily armoured caster that doesn't cast that often, but when he does, it hurts, is a good start.

 

 

And you can take it in other directions, e.g. multiclassing with barbarian, fighter or monk for recovery bonuses, which is how we got Ascaloth's Fate Testarossa Fury/Helwalker build. Or how about the inspired genius that got us the very powerful God of Storms Watershaper/Stormspeaker Tekehu companion build? Druid electricity and storm spells and T1, T3, and T6 electricity offensive invocations? (and healing, and frost spells/invocations too).

 

I hope you will agree after reading this that dismissing some items as clear cut cases of being straight up bad isn't as easy as all that, and that in at least one case you have erred in that regard in your list.

 

EDIT: Clarified in the above that Lord Darryn's Voulge doesn't give +3 electricity power level but +3 storm power level. There's a significant overlap in druid spells of those two keywords that thus end up with +5 as most storms are electrical, but some storms are not and thus only gain +3, just as a few spells are electrical but not storm and thus only gain +2.

Edited August 14, 2018 by pi2repsion

[Ansalon]

 

 

Not only that, but Reckless Brigandine progression is non linear, and you can't fill all 9 slot (not sure about this value), Reckless Brigandine will give you (20 - 25)% Action Speed in average, for fighter classes this mean 17% recovery speed. 17% situational recovery speed or 30% to stun retaliation and 75% damage reduction for all range attacks :D

 Where are you getting the 75% damage reduction for all range attacks ? Are you assuming that Patinated Plate will always cause underpenetration and Reckless Brigandine never will, or am i misunderstanding you? Because the way you seem to word it seems rather biased. It seems to me you are pointing out the best case scenario of Patinated Plate and comparing it to the average scenario of Reckless Brigandine.

 

Because all range weapon has pierce damage, and Reckless Brigandine has 4 less pierce armor, this mean 1 - 2 skeleton ranger will shred you on the pieces, no matter how much you AS you has

 

>  It seems to me you are pointing out the best case scenario of Patinated Plate and comparing it to the average scenario of Reckless Brigandine.

 

All enemies ranger weapon usually has Exceptional quality and ~(9 - 10) + (2 - 4) AR from PotD scaling - which mean each +1 armor multiplicative (yes damage reduction is multiplicative) reduce incoming damage by 25%, the simplest way to make your front-line get +75% damage reduction is take one potion of magic shield

 

This is average scenario for Patinated Plate, I played only solo with DD mod and I have Build around this armor, I know about what I talking, I even recorded a lot of videos with this armor

 

It make you near immune to most of melee guys in the game

 

> Average scenario of Reckless Brigandine.

 

As I told this armor is completely useless for frontline without deflection stacking or unbending from fighter, on this forum we also discussion about  Brigandine, and average speed bonus is something like 17% recovery speed 

 

 

If you are playing on PoTD Upscaling i'm assuming you are knowledgeable enough about game mechanics to play around worst case scenarios of any particular build/ite,. Just because an item does have a conditional weakness doesn't mean you can't easily make up for it by utilizing consumables, temporarily swapping the item out or just approaching that particular fight with that particular weakness in mind.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Ansalon

[Raven Darkholme]

 

Did you even read my post?

Patinated Plate with any of the pets that reduce armor recovery like Cosmo or Abraham (there is at least 2 more) will have less than half a second more recovery than light armor, as long as your dex is decent.

(which it should be if you're so worried about recovery)

My current Solo Paladin/Monk has 0.3s attack and 1.6s recovery time with Patinated Plate, if it was a fighter it would be 0.2 less recovery, if I used light armor it would be 0.2s less.

If it was a fighter wearing light armor it would only be 0.3s saved, this is called diminishing returns.

 

With light armor there will be no enemy on upscaled PotD which has no pen and gets 75% damage penalty, with patinated and a tanky class like paladin there wil be a lot of enemies doing 2 damage per hit.

This has nothing to do with tanks, but the pets having more favourable returns the heavier the armor and diminishing returns the lighter the armor.

Do you consider the 0.3s attack and 1.6s recovery of my patinated plate wearing char slow? How much faster ar your chars wearing light armor?

You are not representing the full reason why the recovery time is so low. It's because monks offer a ton of action speed bonuses, and you don't point out what weapon you use. With the information you are giving me you could be comparing the action speed of a one handed dagger, with multiple self buffs plate user to a two handed Great Sword, no buffs, robe wearer.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble but that value is outside of combat and has absolutely zilch to do with monk abilities.

I hoped that would have been clear when I talked about how a fighter would get slightly better recovery.

Any class with patinated plate, 18 base dex and abraham gets this attack speed.

I'm using a flail with the monk shield (counts as dual wielding for speed bonus) but the weapon type would once again not change the recovery by more than 0.1 - 0.2s, diminishing returns are quite a big thing once you have high dex. (which you should have if you're that concerned about recovery.)

[mant2si]

... oh let's stop discussion I wrote my opinion and some arguments only to make new players understand that in current state this list is useless