[Tank Poll] Holy Slayer (Trickster/Bleak Walker) vs Swashbuckler (Unbroken/Streetfighter)

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

Hey guys, 

 

So, I'm wanting to make my pro-Principi character a tank main, and after talking to folks here I've come up with two different ideas for how best to do that. First, I think I kind of want to share a little about what I've envisioned, and then run through the two ideas I have and discuss the pros and cons of both. So, without further ado! 

 

The character I want is intended to be an iron wall in ship-to-ship combat, fearlessly wearing medium or heavy armor into battle and engaging with multiple enemies, cutting swathes through them as his allies provide support. He's meant to be fearless, and utterly implacable, but not entirely without a sense of humor, or fun. He'll allow a certain degree of leisure aboard ship and at port, provided his crew are ready to do their jobs when it comes time to take an enemy vessel. 

 

The two builds I have in mind are...

 

1. Holy Slayer (Bleak Walker/Trickster): This guy is built as a Riposte tank who can stack up ridiculously high Deflection in order to proc full attacks while putting heavy pressure on enemies with Rogue Full Attacks and Flames of Devotion, augmented with extra Corrode damage from the Bleak Walker. Later on, gets access to Paladin's Stoic Steel for +3 armor while standing still, and maintains excellent defenses throughout with Deep Faith. The only downsides to this I can see are Riposte not being as effective in a full party and necessitating carrying awkward/clunky looking weapons to get the necessary engagements, and the Bleak Walker requiring Aggressive/Cruel responses and being somewhat limiting in terms of roleplaying them properly. 

 

2. Swashbuckler (Unbroken/Streetfighter): A bit more thematically appropriate of a choice. Trades the raw defenses of the Holy Slayer for the ability to wear heavier armor that the Streetfighter grants, with its Recovery reduction plus that granted by pets and by Armored Grace from the Fighter. Works on stacking up as many engagements as possible and then punishing foes who try to disengage with heavy penetration disengagement attacks with high Accuracy and crit chance. The only downsides are that it's a lot more fragile than the Holy Slayer, requires being either flanked or bloodied (Meaning careful management with a Priest, and death if someone gets off Arcane Dampener), and has so many necessary passives that it doesn't allow for a lot of actives to be taken. 

 

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on both of these builds. Right now, my opinions on both are about 50/50. I like the sound of the Swashbuckler, but the lower defenses hurt. I could mitigate that by using Trickster, but then that'd basically just be my Holy Slayer with a different class. Meanwhile, the Holy Slayer offers great defenses, but feels a bit slower. 

 

My Holy Slayer build can be found here: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/104853-character-build-holy-slayer-the-iron-reaver-of-dunnage-heavy-rp-principi-character-for-potd-rough-draft-feedback-welcome/

 

I don't have one written for the Unbroken/Streetfighter yet. 

 

Edit: Added an Unbroken/Trickster option to the list. 

Edited August 11, 2018 by Cyrus_Blackfeather

[Theosupus]

Unbroken Street Fighter has an anti synergy you aren't flanked until you go above your engagement count so if you stack really really high engagement you'll never get flanked

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

Unbroken Street Fighter has an anti synergy you aren't flanked until you go above your engagement count so if you stack really really high engagement you'll never get flanked

 

Does it? Hmm. Well, the Bloodied benefit ought to be enough on its own anyway... I'm worried about how low my defenses would be though, especially with the Reflex malus from Unbroken. 

Edited August 11, 2018 by Cyrus_Blackfeather

[Theosupus]

Reflex malus is easily made up with weapon and shield style.

 

The true power of the unbroken is choke points, but in the open it ends up being a semi-permanent pull of eora because the AI hates breaking engagements. 
If/when they do though they almost insta die because of all the stacking bonuses that apply to a disengagement attack from an unbroken (and the rogue half adds deathblows on a mob that is automatically susceptible to them due to constant distraction).

Streetfighter is amazing when you want to ride the line with barring death's door and take advantage of all the "more dps when hurt" synergies but if you mix a "better when hurt" character with a "stop from getting hurt" half you are working against yourself.

So with presented options #1 is FAR superior.

I'm not sure anyone could screw up a */paladin tbh.

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

Reflex malus is easily made up with weapon and shield style.

 

The true power of the unbroken is choke points, but in the open it ends up being a semi-permanent pull of eora because the AI hates breaking engagements. 

If/when they do though they almost insta die because of all the stacking bonuses that apply to a disengagement attack from an unbroken (and the rogue half adds deathblows on a mob that is automatically susceptible to them due to constant distraction).

 

Streetfighter is amazing when you want to ride the line with barring death's door and take advantage of all the "more dps when hurt" synergies but if you mix a "better when hurt" character with a "stop from getting hurt" half you are working against yourself.

 

So with presented options #1 is FAR superior.

 

I'm not sure anyone could screw up a */paladin tbh.

 

So would you recommend Unbroken/Trickster instead to stack Deflection/Riposte and then have plenty of engagements so that they can't run away and have to attack me? That seems like it could be a pretty cool synergy, if the Streetfighter doesn't work out. 

[Theosupus]

 

 

 

So would you recommend Unbroken/Trickster instead to stack Deflection/Riposte and then have plenty of engagements so that they can't run away and have to attack me? That seems like it could be a pretty cool synergy, if the Streetfighter doesn't work out. 

 

I would not play an unbroken/trickster as an "action packed" toon. They are very "fire and forget" and a basic AI can run them.

Position manually, let AI buff and hold aggro

Blow all the mobs up with other characters

 

There are specific tricks you can use to make him more brutal but most involve debuffing the mobs around you so you can riposte more often.

I also used Eder as a rogue w/ 2x mortar wearing just a robe to get a few disengagements when he would do a big hit.

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

 

 

 

 

So would you recommend Unbroken/Trickster instead to stack Deflection/Riposte and then have plenty of engagements so that they can't run away and have to attack me? That seems like it could be a pretty cool synergy, if the Streetfighter doesn't work out. 

 

I would not play an unbroken/trickster as an "action packed" toon. They are very "fire and forget" and a basic AI can run them.

Position manually, let AI buff and hold aggro

Blow all the mobs up with other characters

 

There are specific tricks you can use to make him more brutal but most involve debuffing the mobs around you so you can riposte more often.

I also used Eder as a rogue w/ 2x mortar wearing just a robe to get a few disengagements when he would do a big hit.

 

 

Well, I want to build an action-packed tanky toon, so what would you recommend for that then? 

[Greensleeve]

If you're bothered by the roleplaying of a Bleak Walker, play a Darcozzi. It is the weakest subclass, sure, but it's plenty strong. The first character I finished the game with was a Darcozzi Crusader and he kicked so much ass with dual sabres. He couldn't die, he'd clear out encounters on his own, he could heal, he put down serious hurt against bosses, and Charge let him have fun with positioning in any encounter I wanted. 

 

Now, Charge was nerfed and is a bit less fun, but the positioning part of it is still excellent. So any teleport/jump ability would be just as good and fun. Escape is a great option, since it's so cheap and you get it so early. 

 

Honestly, I'd strongly recommend a Holy Slayer from your stated goals. If you're bothered by the roleplaying of an order, just pick another one. They're all plenty strong. Trickster is also the most active and (as far as I'm concerned) fun rogue subclass. 

 

I'd also recommend that you make sure to pick up Explosives. They add a bunch of fun to any character without too much investment. 

 

So from your post I'd say the following rough build: 

 

Darcozzi/Trickster

 

Pick awesome Paladin passives, Flames of Devotion, and an Aura. Since you get Lay on Hands for free, you'll tank plenty when combined with the Paladin passives and Trickster spells. 

 

Pick Escape, and any rogue attacks you like. Make sure you pick up Persistent Distraction (it's so good). 

 

Dual wield whatever good weapons you have on hand. I've always liked going strong on the flavor with a sabre/sword in the main hand and dagger/stiletto in the off-hand. Marux Aranth or whatever is a decent dagger, Pukestabber is pretty good together with Drunkard's Regret, and Rust's Poignard is awesome. 

 

In combat, buff yourself, Escape into a good and fun position, have everyone become Distracted, triggering Sneak Attacks, then proceed to hit for massive damage while taking little in return. And if you end up taking too much, you can Lay on Hands, or even Escape out. 

 

At higher levels you also have access to some great CC with Gaze of the Adragan. 

 

For funsies, throw bombs. Stun Bombs are good and available early. 

 

EDIT: Just noticed your comment about speed: This build should be comfortable in Medium Armor. Together with Abraham/Nalvi (best boys) or Cosmo, you'd probably sit at a roughly 2 second recovery. I'd say that's decently fast by Deadfire standards. 

 

EDIT 2: Oh, and skip Riposte. It's not very good. I desperately wanted it to be good, but it isn't. It forces you into a less than stellar playstyle for little reward. Just focus on Armor and Engagement slots rather than absolute max Deflection. You'll do better DPS, you'll be at least as tanky, and you'll have a spare Ability point. 

Edited August 11, 2018 by Greensleeve

[gkathellar]

Unbroken/Trickster is really good.

[Theosupus]

 

 

 

Well, I want to build an action-packed tanky toon, so what would you recommend for that then? 

 

As far as tanky types:

 

1. So far the most fun I've had in the game was my Fanatic. Some adjustments on race, background, weaponry, and headgear and you can fine tune the theme.

2. A very close second on pure fun was a retribution barbarian based on Sin Tee's God Of War build but it doesn't really shine until later in levels and requires multiple respecs as you go.

 

I've tried:

-Melee rangers (because of the amazing pl7 ability); but even spec'd melee they always perform better ranged, they are just made to shot.

-Lancer (wizard summon spirit lance + martial class);  got sick of being a "one trick pony".

-Wizard tank could adjust per encounter by changing spellbooks instead of respecing; found mopup to be very annoying.

-Most of your uber power builds are either one trick ponies and every fight is the exact same, or they are so good they get boring fast.

 

The 2 above were always interesting for me.

 

 

 

 

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

Unbroken/Trickster is really good.

 

And how fun is it, would you say? I like the idea of, as someone else said, essentially being a miniature Pull of Eora. 

[thundercleese]

Unbroken Street Fighter has an anti synergy you aren't flanked until you go above your engagement count so if you stack really really high engagement you'll never get flanked

This is not true at all. All it takes to be flanked is for two enemies to threatening you in melee at (roughly) opposing sides.

 

I can only think of two things in game affect when/whether you are flanked; Squid's Grasp (immunity) and One Stands Alone (one more foe needed).

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

 

Unbroken Street Fighter has an anti synergy you aren't flanked until you go above your engagement count so if you stack really really high engagement you'll never get flanked

This is not true at all. All it takes to be flanked is for two enemies to threatening you in melee at (roughly) opposing sides.

 

I can only think of two things in game affect when/whether you are flanked; Squid's Grasp (immunity) and One Stands Alone (one more foe needed).

 

 

Oh, does it? Nice. 

 

(Gipon Prudesco also gives immunity to flanked if you enchant it to).

 

So, would you recommend Streetfighter/Unbroken or Trickster/Unbroken? 

[Theosupus]

 

Unbroken Street Fighter has an anti synergy you aren't flanked until you go above your engagement count so if you stack really really high engagement you'll never get flanked

This is not true at all. All it takes to be flanked is for two enemies to threatening you in melee at (roughly) opposing sides.

 

I can only think of two things in game affect when/whether you are flanked; Squid's Grasp (immunity) and One Stands Alone (one more foe needed).

 

Are you sure?

I was pretty sure my tank never got flanked.

I guess I have something else to test tonight

[thundercleese]

I checked the description and then tested it in game just now - as soon as two mobs got in melee range on either side of me I got the flanked status.

[thundercleese]

 

 

Unbroken Street Fighter has an anti synergy you aren't flanked until you go above your engagement count so if you stack really really high engagement you'll never get flanked

This is not true at all. All it takes to be flanked is for two enemies to threatening you in melee at (roughly) opposing sides.

 

I can only think of two things in game affect when/whether you are flanked; Squid's Grasp (immunity) and One Stands Alone (one more foe needed).

 

 

Oh, does it? Nice. 

 

(Gipon Prudesco also gives immunity to flanked if you enchant it to).

 

So, would you recommend Streetfighter/Unbroken or Trickster/Unbroken? 

 

Trickster if you want to be a Riposte tank (there are three shields I can think of that have additional retaliatory attacks) - Streetfighter if you want to do more active damage. Even then I'd still take Riposte on the Streetfighter, unless you can't fit it in.

[Theosupus]

I checked the description and then tested it in game just now - as soon as two mobs got in melee range on either side of me I got the flanked status.

Just ran a test myself and, you're right, when you get surrounded it happens I guess I fight in choke points too often.

 

I still think #1 is a better choice for what OP is looking for though.

[thundercleese]

Agreed, Swashbucklers tend to be quite boring tanks as most of the things you want to take are passives. Very much a set and forget build. That's not to say you can't build a more active tank out of one however.

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

Agreed, Swashbucklers tend to be quite boring tanks as most of the things you want to take are passives. Very much a set and forget build. That's not to say you can't build a more active tank out of one however.

 

That's kind of the case with Paladin too though, isn't it? 

[thundercleese]

TBH I usually just make Eder my tank, so I'm far from the best person to give advice on tank characters (I prefer being primary damage dealer). The difference is Paladins have a number of active defensive abilities (heal, blind, etc.) as well as the Exhortations. Whereas Fighter tanks are basically "take everything defensive and maybe some attack skills if you have room". But again, someone with more experience in making a tank main character would be better at giving advice here. I mainly chimed in to point out that flanked doesn't care about your engagement slots.

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

To be honest, I'm looking for an offensive tank - that is, someone who can survive really well, but still manage to dish out a lot of respectable damage. It was said on another thread that those kinds of characters help to "set" the encounter, and I also like the idea of having a character with near max Resolve - because I'm not a huge fan of dumping it when it's not necessary. 

[colma86]

Holy slayer was my vote.

 

I don't see how the other two make up for FoD or lay on hands. Swashy is good but for pure min/max it won't touch holy slayer. Also HS is a bit more fun to micro.

 

My standard usage is first 10-20s use a shield and then swap to dual wield after the initial pressure is absorbed and your party does its thing (works solo too more or less). Once the dual wielding happens its FoD spam time, bonus to set the AI to devastating blow at 50% target hp.

 

Hunkering down with a shield all the time just hits the breaks on the pain train, and that makes the pain train sad. Choo Choo.

[1TTFFSSE]

What Thundercleese said is true basically fighters are more pure martial classes focused on disrupting the enemy while paladin has a bunch of utility thrown in with their abilities that improve their party members attacks.

 

case in point:

 

FoD vs Penetrating strike or Knockdown: FoD can buff fire lash on everyone in the party, fighter takes it to the enemy and maybe knocks them down.

 

Inspiring Beacon vs Charge - the paladin abilities improves everyone around them in that enemies take extra damage for x time, while the fighter ability tries to disrupt the enemy again by knocking them down. 

 

but in general all tanks are pretty "low maintenance" if they good

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

Holy slayer was my vote.

 

I don't see how the other two make up for FoD or lay on hands. Swashy is good but for pure min/max it won't touch holy slayer. Also HS is a bit more fun to micro.

 

My standard usage is first 10-20s use a shield and then swap to dual wield after the initial pressure is absorbed and your party does its thing (works solo too more or less). Once the dual wielding happens its FoD spam time, bonus to set the AI to devastating blow at 50% target hp.

 

Hunkering down with a shield all the time just hits the breaks on the pain train, and that makes the pain train sad. Choo Choo.

 

The poor pain train...

 

I can kind of see that though - Unbroken only really shines when enemies break engagement with you. So if the AI is smart, it won't, and then you just get left with a bunch of enemies hammering your face. 

 

From a roleplay perspective, I CAN make a Bleak Walker Principi work, I just have to bend the rules of how Bleak Walkers work in canon a bit for it to fit with the kind of character I want to play. I wonder if I could get away with the Blackened Plate armor as a Pally? 

 

I definitely want to be a Rogue multiclass tank though, because the extra splash of damage Rogue provides is just too good. 

 

 

What Thundercleese said is true basically fighters are more pure martial classes focused on disrupting the enemy while paladin has a bunch of utility thrown in with their abilities that improve their party members attacks.

 

case in point:

 

FoD vs Penetrating strike or Knockdown: FoD can buff fire lash on everyone in the party, fighter takes it to the enemy and maybe knocks them down.

 

Inspiring Beacon vs Charge - the paladin abilities improves everyone around them in that enemies take extra damage for x time, while the fighter ability tries to disrupt the enemy again by knocking them down. 

 

but in general all tanks are pretty "low maintenance" if they good

 

So I'm curious which you'd recommend? I know you had good fun with a Bleak Walker/Trickster on solo - did you have issues with engagements there? I'm assuming Persistent Distraction only applies for as many enemies as YOU have engagement slots, not all of the ones that are engaging you - correct me if I'm wrong. 

 

Would you say its damage is on par to, or surpasses, a Swashbuckler? Flames of Devotion, especially with Eternal Devotion, seems like a really good DPS upgrade, especially combined with what Rogue gets. 

 

Would a Streetfighter/Bleak Walker work for this kind of tanky playstyle, or am I better off sticking with Trickster for defensive upgrades?

 

Are all of these questions super annoying? 

 

I also need to consider which would be more effective in a party, since I don't really feel comfortable soloing yet. Though if I were to solo, I feel like the Holy Slayer would be better in that regard too. 

[1TTFFSSE]

 

Holy slayer was my vote.

 

I don't see how the other two make up for FoD or lay on hands. Swashy is good but for pure min/max it won't touch holy slayer. Also HS is a bit more fun to micro.

 

My standard usage is first 10-20s use a shield and then swap to dual wield after the initial pressure is absorbed and your party does its thing (works solo too more or less). Once the dual wielding happens its FoD spam time, bonus to set the AI to devastating blow at 50% target hp.

 

Hunkering down with a shield all the time just hits the breaks on the pain train, and that makes the pain train sad. Choo Choo.

 

The poor pain train...

 

I can kind of see that though - Unbroken only really shines when enemies break engagement with you. So if the AI is smart, it won't, and then you just get left with a bunch of enemies hammering your face. 

 

From a roleplay perspective, I CAN make a Bleak Walker Principi work, I just have to bend the rules of how Bleak Walkers work in canon a bit for it to fit with the kind of character I want to play. I wonder if I could get away with the Blackened Plate armor as a Pally? 

 

I definitely want to be a Rogue multiclass tank though, because the extra splash of damage Rogue provides is just too good. 

 

 

What Thundercleese said is true basically fighters are more pure martial classes focused on disrupting the enemy while paladin has a bunch of utility thrown in with their abilities that improve their party members attacks.

 

case in point:

 

FoD vs Penetrating strike or Knockdown: FoD can buff fire lash on everyone in the party, fighter takes it to the enemy and maybe knocks them down.

 

Inspiring Beacon vs Charge - the paladin abilities improves everyone around them in that enemies take extra damage for x time, while the fighter ability tries to disrupt the enemy again by knocking them down. 

 

but in general all tanks are pretty "low maintenance" if they good

 

So I'm curious which you'd recommend? I know you had good fun with a Bleak Walker/Trickster on solo - did you have issues with engagements there? I'm assuming Persistent Distraction only applies for as many enemies as YOU have engagement slots, not all of the ones that are engaging you - correct me if I'm wrong. 

 

Would you say its damage is on par to, or surpasses, a Swashbuckler? Flames of Devotion, especially with Eternal Devotion, seems like a really good DPS upgrade, especially combined with what Rogue gets. 

 

Would a Streetfighter/Bleak Walker work for this kind of tanky playstyle, or am I better off sticking with Trickster for defensive upgrades?

 

Are all of these questions super annoying? 

 

I also need to consider which would be more effective in a party, since I don't really feel comfortable soloing yet. Though if I were to solo, I feel like the Holy Slayer would be better in that regard too. 

 

In a party based setting I would always go for Paladin over Fighter in a tank - yes the Fighter can do very good damage even as a tank but as I stated the over net gain from other perks which a paladin provides will be less. The Party will be overall more efficient with a Paladin /x tank. 

 

Now streetfighter/ trickster are two completely different builds for paladin.

 

With trickster you are generally the main tank as you will have the best defenses. With streeetfighter, it becomes an off tank. in a party of 5 there is generally the tank, the offtank, 2 damage dealer glass cannons and a healer/buffer. Broken down more specifically the main tank is there to hold aggro, take a beating if necessery and either support the team with some form of party buffs to their offensive prowess or debuff the enemies so they become easier to hit (Holysleter trickster can do all three and deal good damage for tank to boot). The offtank is there to 1.) pull aggro off the main tank and the squishies if the main tank becomes too stressed 2.) to deal "decent" damage though not as much as the pure damage dealers though more is always better 3.) provide anything else that  team might need at any given point - the offtank is the wildcard slot really (chanters and Priests excel at this role for example).  The two damage dealers are usually broken down to one is strong in aoe damage and the other is strong in single target and burst damage. If the damage dealers can also debilitate/ cc targets on the side while doing damage that is a bonus. Finally, healer/buffer is there to make sure everyone is healthy and defenses are up. That to me is an efficient party composition. For example, my last run in a party was Tank-Holyslayer, Offtank Shaman, Aoe dps Mindstalker, burst/single target dps Marauder, Healerbuffer was a Theurge.