Eora’s Geography 2.0 (3.0? Let’s go with The Latest Edition)

[Zaris]

I realise that this subject has already been discussed, however without any satisfying conclusion; so perhaps now with a little bit of hindsight after couple playthroughs and Beast of Winter’s release we can come up with unified geographical information about Eora. Bear in mind that below is just a more-or-less comparison to real world for picturing the map and climates easier and I realise that not every in-game place has to correspond to some real world equivalent, however this really seems to be the case in POE:

 

 

-Aedyr is your generic european empire, however with tropical climate. Medieval England/Germany thrown into Central America so to say. This could be really interesting setting for the next game actually, with this mix of Aztec and European cultures (what if Cortez wasn’t a **** so to say).

 

 

-Ixamitl is Middle-East or North Africa; philosophers and scholars seem to point to the former, as well as connection via land to Eastern Reach AKA our generic fantasy Europe

 

 

-Old Vailia is your standard mediterranean empire, like Italy, Spain or Portugal, currently at the stage of it’s colonies revolting and economy collapsing

 

 

-Rautai is Korea, both geographically as well as culturally, visible trough their gear, language as well as heavy use of artillery. From what I remember Korea once defeated Japan mostly by sinking their elite forces before most could reach shore and destroying their supply lines with superior cannons and new type of ships. And they are even said to be on a penninsula, same as Korea. Also scholar as a possible backround is a big pointer since Korea had plenty of those and they held as important position as knights in Europe.

 

 

-Living Lands are like Australia: weird creatures, huge bugs, unseen anywhere else plants, crazy people, seems correct. I know that Josh said that it’s bigger Iceland but all the in-game information seem to contradict that, so maybe he meant that it’s like Iceland in correlation to other continents? As in „north but not the northest”. Or they changed their mind during development and decided to go with something more original and shift all the vikingness into WTW and southern Deadfire. Anyway LL are far to the north but apparently not the furthest you can go. From what we know the north pole have not been discovered yet, so our map is basically a blank sheet on the north, west and beyond Ondra’s Mortar. The only boundry we are certain of is White That Wends and the south pole. That’s actually really cool because it shows us how people used to see the world: only in their own little fragments and not in it’s entirety.

 

 

-White That Wends is Greenland. Yup, that’s all there is to say.

 

 

 

On a personal note I wonder what place would be best suited for a viking-like character. I’m torn between WTW and Deadfire. Technically both are correct but can somebody please tell me what kind of dialogue Deadfire backround gives? Does it assume you’re from the „central” part and familiar with Huana, VTC and RDC or can you roleplay as somebody from southern reaches of the Archipelago? Are there any special dialogues in BoW when you have Deadfire backround? Thanks in advance.

[gkathellar]

No, I don't see much of that at all. Nowhere maps to anywhere in particular, but there's a lot of coding - Ixamitl has pretty strong Mesoamerican cues in its language and some of what we know about its mythology, for instance. I really don't see where you're getting your take on Rauatai from, and if you're referring to Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea, that's not really how it played out at all (plus, if you really want giant cannons, you should look towards Central Europe and the Ottoman Empire). Personally, I take Rauatai as a vaguely-Polynesian twist on American politics.
 
Re: Iceland, bear in mind that the Living Lands is described as having extremely varied climates. Iceland is a volcanic island covered in alternating glaciers and fertile grasslands.

[Zaris]

Sure, that’s why I said „more-or-less comparison”. However even when a developer sets out to create a completely unique world, the one that they live in still has some influence, on subconcious level if nothing else. If you honestly don’t see Caribbean in Deadfire and Mediterranean in Old Valia / Republics, then well...

 

Iceland has some diverse climates, with dense forests, ice caves and beaches of black sand all close to each other, but the same cannot be said for it’s plants and animals. The most diverse ecosystems are in warmest places and this rule seems to carry on from our world to Eora as observed by WTW’s desolation compared to Deadfire’s jungles. So the logical conclusion is that LL are warm, tropical even. And it’s also certain that there is no definite (discovered) end of the world on the north and west, like we have in the south.

 

I missed any remarks on Ixamitl mythology, care to give some examples? That sounds interesting. Now that you mention it, the name does have a Mesoamerican ring to it. Still, the savannas, scholars and philosophers are all strong points toward more Arabic culture, but I’m open to your opinion.

 

When you say „American politics” you mean modern CIA-backed meddling in the affairs of other countires? Yeah, I can see some resemblence. Although we have yet to see a Rautai ruler who openly supports Valian Republics over his own intelligence agencies : D As to Polynesia...I’m not sure. Don’t you think that Huana take this spot on our imaginative map? Rautai seems to be Korea as hell; in my view they basically need only an internal conclict that will split them in two and StarCraft to complete the picture. I know that Hideyoshi’s invasion wasn’t exactly like described but I wanted to be brief and not delve too deep into it. Especially that the sense remains: Korea won thanks to clever use of their navy and superior cannons, both of which are characteristic to Rautai. And even if Ottomans had bigger ones, it’s the Far East that was the birthplace of gunpowder, not the Middle East. Also their common spirit and putting the country before an individual are very indicative of Asia; USA and Europe were always more individualistic, still are to this day actually. But I’m not hell bent on connecting R to K, it’s just what seems to be the case here.

[Vitalis]

Rauatai comes across as a mix of Caesarean Imperial Rome, American Manifest Destiny, and the Ottoman Empire. Their soldiers are experienced with engineering, if not engineers themselves; they are highly expansionist as evidenced by the Orlan Peddler in the Brass Citadel; they are big on assimilating the cultures they conquer, again shown by the Orlan Peddler as well as Sayuka; the Roman military was always focused on advancing the Republic/Empire until Nero was overthrown; and their views on how conquer the Deadfire are very 1800's America. The Ottoman comparison comes from the fact that their entire army revolved around gunpowder. They conquered Eastern Rome with their cannons, they were the main reason Constantinople fell to them. Gunpowder may have originated in Asia, but it became what it is today due to Europe and the Ottomans.

 

Gunpowder was developed by Magranites yo conquer the power of wizards. It is implied that it is one of the reasons the Aedyr Empire went into decline.

 

Iximatl is a mix of Mesoamerica/Native America and the Buddihist/Taoist traditions of Asia. This is evident with Zahua from PoE WM and the description for the Monk class indicating they originated in Iximatl. The presence of scholar monks is also more associated with Asia than Arabia.

 

The Huana are heavily influenced by the Polynesians, and I'd go so far as to say the Kahaunga represent the last Hawaaian Queen.

 

As for the rest of your analysis, it seems more influenced by pop culture than actual history.

[Taevyr]

Aedyr's more like a combination of real-life great britain and the feudal nations in early-modern east-europe: Britain can be seen in that they're an empire formed by the union between multiple kingdoms, with no real threats within it's sphere of influence and a large colonial empire, large parts of which were lost to rebellions. East-europe can be seen in the opposition to advancements that would upset the existing order and clash with religious dogma, and the continued feudal system. The Church of Woedica can be seen as an analogy to both the Anglican church and the lack of reformation in eastern europe. No real reference to any meso-american influences/themes are present, though the tropical location is interesting, and they likely have a similar feel as the dyrwood aside of climate, though probably more organized and rigid.

 

I agree with Old Vailia being like the Roman/Byzantine empire, though it supposedly splintered a long time ago, and it also has hints of the Holy Roman Empire's decline and the Fourth Crusade: the Vailian republics can be seen as an equivalent to the Italian city-states gradually falling away from Imperial influence in the 15th century, and the splintering of Old Vailia by scheming merchants and local nobles is almost a carbon copy of the chaos following the fourth crusade, though without an equivalent to the seljuk and ottomans, so the fight continues. As we haven't seen anyone from Old Vailia yet, there's little to say about their aesthetics.

 

Ixamitl is meso-american inspired, though I haven't paid that much attention to it. The rest of the eastern reach, namely readceras and the dyrwood, is clearly inspired by the north american colonial nations.

 

Rauatai seems more like Japan: a rough land lacking natural resources that had to be unified by force (the Sengoku/warring states period), changed by the arrival of a foreign people in very early times who gradually took over, and protected from foreign powers by the fleet and storms (the "divine wind" that supposedly turned the Mongol fleets away when they invaded). They seem to be somewhat isolationist, though it's currently in the midst of changing said policy, and have a heavily stratified and militaristic society, which focuses on expansion through industrial and military means. Aesthetically, they blend this with some of the polynesian/south-east asian features prevalent in their Huana ancestors. Not to mention the importance of gunpowder and modern warfare methods for both nations

 

The living lands seem like a version of Iceland where all the myths are true: varied ecosystems, located in the far north, and the weirdest creatures/plants one could imagine.

 

I remember someone found a possible map of Eora in-game somewhere which fit with the known locations of the various nations/regions, but I can't find the thread.

 

Edit: Found it

Edited August 10, 2018 by Taevyr

[Zaris]

You’re quite right that it’s based on pop culture rather than history since we’re talking about loose analogies in a video game and not hard facts. I doubt that any of the devs have deep historical knowledge and even if, they are unlikely to use it in creating their in-game universe. If you want we can create a freaking list of empires that assimilated other cultures and trade dates/names for days, however it would go a little off-topic, don’t you think?

Thanks for the info about Zahua, I never played WM so also never interacted with the guy. This really changes the picture of Ixamitl.

But seriously „rest of your analysis”? Like the parts about LL or Iceland’s climate? : D That’s some generalisation on your part. Unless you want to say that from a historical point of view Iceland is a tropical island and my idea of it is tainted by meaningless things like pop-culture and actually visiting the place? Or that Australia is not a big island with fauna and flora like no other place on Earth?

But anyway the point of the topic is not „find a best equivalents for Eora’s cultures” but rather clarify some of the descriptions since they’re not something you can call clear or obvious, as seen by numerous attempts such as mine above and people actually creating their own maps because the devs can’t be asked. That’s got to be the only RPG in which you can play a character from a country you don’t know much about. The comparisons were only meant as a shorthand; and I mentioned that at the very beginning by the way.

 

Edit: wow, thanks Taevyr; that map is a great find! And similarities to eastern Europe are quite on point (sadly, since I come from there). Now that you mention it I did think that Galwain/Abbydon description of Woedica from the first POE kinda matched current political climate in this part of the world.

Edited August 10, 2018 by Zaris

[gkathellar]

My take on Rauatai-as-American is more about its internal politics, as described by Kana in the first game. According to him, there's a big fight going on between the globalist imperialists, the isolationists, and the globalist progressives. This has been a pretty central theme of foreign policy thought in American history, to the point that American polisci circles sometimes refer to these broad schools as Hamiltonian, Jeffersonian, and Wilsonian. As Taevyr said, the Dyrwood and Readceras draw on actual American history and many atmospheric elements. But I can't help hearing Kana's description of the Rauataian political situation and thinking, "yep, that's home."

Edited August 10, 2018 by gkathellar

[Tick]

Yeah, I don't think the Rauatai behavior and attitude just applies to the US, but man does it remind me of it, constantly.

 

 

Also, I thought Josh Sawyer was a pretty big history buff? And I would say that the way Obsidian writes about factions and cultures strongly feels like they're taking what they've learned from history and applying it to different situations. Which is awesome! I think it helps make the worlds and people more authentic and believable.

[Vitalis]

Yeah, I don't think the Rauatai behavior and attitude just applies to the US, but man does it remind me of it, constantly.

 

 

Also, I thought Josh Sawyer was a pretty big history buff? And I would say that the way Obsidian writes about factions and cultures strongly feels like they're taking what they've learned from history and applying it to different situations. Which is awesome! I think it helps make the worlds and people more authentic and believable.

Exactly, it's more evident that the nations in PoE were based more off of history, but in order to recognize it you need to know something about history. From a design perspective, it would be easier to base in game cultures on real cultures because it's far easier than creating one from scratch.

 

Old Vailia can partially be associated with Spain/Portugal in that they have colonies, but the only similarity to Italy would be the accents. Of the history we know of Old Vailia, the Empire collapsed due to a combination of economic decline, conflict with Aedyr, and infighting of its "states". The colonies that make up the Vailian Republics seceded and refused to take in the nobles that would create the Principi sen Patra, which is why both factions are antagonistic.

 

Returning to Old Vailia, an influence can be seen to the fall of Imperial Rome combined with the infighting of the late Empire as well as that of the Holy Roman Empire. The Republics however have similarities to the Italian City states of the Renaissance era combined with modern capitalism. The name Republics may be more of a misnomer as, from the information we have, they may just be a Republic in name only. We know they are a collection of city states, and the Republics are ruled by five Ducs, but how are the Ducs chosen? Are they inherited, voted on, or seniority succession?

 

Unlike the colonies of Spain/Portugal, the Vailan's are not trying to completely obliterate the culture/lives of the Huana; which is also in stark contrast to Rauatai, who seek to do so.

 

As for the White that Wends and Living Lands we still lack any concrete details of what each is like. I have yet to play through BoW, but I have a feeling that will expand sonewhat on the lives of the Pale Elves.

 

As for Rautai being similar to Japan, geographically yes. They do seem to lack any source of food production, which in turn drives their expansion, but their expansion also includes forcibly assimilating those they conquer. Which in turn leads us back to Caesarean Imperial Rome, the Ottoman Empire, and America.

[Taevyr]

 

As for Rautai being similar to Japan, geographically yes. They do seem to lack any source of food production, which in turn drives their expansion, but their expansion also includes forcibly assimilating those they conquer. Which in turn leads us back to Caesarean Imperial Rome, the Ottoman Empire, and America.

 

To me it seemed similar to the Japanese treatment of its Manchurian territories following the Meiji restoration: assimilation by "raising fellow aumaua/asians to the level of your own culture".

 

Aside from that, Imperial Rome under the Julii-Claudii dynasty (I assume you mean this with Caesarean) isn't the best example, as they generally left the areas it conquered alone, so long as they paid imperial taxes/tribute depending on status, honoured Roman laws and acknowledged the divinity of the emperor. Romanisation occurred, but this was overall a gradual, non-deliberate evolution caused by the creation of colony cities in conquered territory for unsettled veterans, and the induction of local leadership in the Roman elite: both of which caused Rome to be influenced by the people it conquered just as much, as visible in local building templates, the gradual induction of superior local weaponry such as the gladius, and the rise of the local elite in the Roman Hierarchy. 20th century thinking largely imagined Romanisation to be more deliberate due to the experiences of the past century: this is generally seen as a mistake by modern researchers, though the debate on it'll probably never fully be resolved.

[Vitalis]

 

As for Rautai being similar to Japan, geographically yes. They do seem to lack any source of food production, which in turn drives their expansion, but their expansion also includes forcibly assimilating those they conquer. Which in turn leads us back to Caesarean Imperial Rome, the Ottoman Empire, and America.

 

To me it seemed similar to the Japanese treatment of its Manchurian territories following the Meiji restoration: assimilation by "raising fellow aumaua/asians to the level of your own culture".

 

Aside from that, Imperial Rome under the Julii-Claudii dynasty (I assume you mean this with Caesarean) isn't the best example, as they generally left the areas it conquered alone, so long as they paid imperial taxes/tribute depending on status, honoured Roman laws and acknowledged the divinity of the emperor. Romanisation occurred, but this was overall a gradual, non-deliberate evolution caused by the creation of colony cities in conquered territory for unsettled veterans, and the induction of local leadership in the Roman elite: both of which caused Rome to be influenced by the people it conquered just as much, as visible in local building templates, the gradual induction of superior local weaponry such as the gladius, and the rise of the local elite in the Roman Hierarchy. 20th century thinking largely imagined Romanisation to be more deliberate due to the experiences of the past century: this is generally seen as a mistake by modern researchers, though the debate on it'll probably never fully be resolved.

My comparison to the Julii-Claudii dynasty (thank you for that) was more about the way the army was at the time, filled with engineers and still loyal to the Empire. Of course, their loyalty as still higher to their General thanks to Marius and Sulla, and was later used by Caesar to devastating effect on the Republic and later the Empire by other Generals. However they had the decency to keep the appearance until Caligula and Nero.

 

The assimilation involved is more American which, as I mentioned, is evidenced by both Sayuka and the Orlan Peddler in the Brass Citadel. The Orlan indicates that she grew up under Rauataian(?) rule, she had no concept of what life would have been like before. The only ones that do are her parents and the other "elders" that were defeated by Rauatai, and they lament the loss of their culture while realizing they are powerless to stop it. In Sayuka, there's a fight between the Huana over the loss of their culture if they continue staying in the long house.

[Tagaziel]

I think you mean integration, not assimilation. Rauatai doesn't appear to be engaged in any sort of Kulturkampf, it simply imposes its rule and laws, and moves on. The undersecretary at Sayuka is an overzealous minor functionary who tries to pull it off, only to be mocked by the Huana greeter at every turn (if it was actual Kulturkampf, the mocking would be followed by repercussions).

 

Besides, the Huana shedding the caste divisions is nothing but good. I'd like to remind everyone that the Huana are strictly divided at birth into castes where the least are literally given trash to eat and meant to starve in times of lean. Notably, the Mataru - the top dogs - are pissed off at the longhouse. The Kuaru and the Roparu are much less annoyed by it. Hell, the weaver and the laborer who get a chance to teach each other skills thanks to the proximity introduced by the longhouse are quite happy (and both mock the stomping, shouting Mataru who bemoans the change... While having the single most luxurious place in the building).

Edited August 12, 2018 by Tagaziel

[handsomenat]

From a dialogue with Seduzo (Rauatai captain you meet in the Gullet):

Watcher: "If you do business here, perhaps you should learn the culture."

Seduzo: "In a few years, these people will all learn our ways and pay homage to the ranga nui." Her brow furrows.

 

I'd say they expect the Huana to assimilate. The changes in language, housing, economy, philosophy of living (Huana adapting to landscape vs Rauatai conquering it) will have long lasting effects. Seeing Sayuka was intriguing and very interesting. And yes, caste system is incredibly unfair (and in Neketaka it reached the peak dysfunction) but Rauatai doesn't change it from the goodness of their heart .

[Tagaziel]

From a dialogue with Seduzo (Rauatai captain you meet in the Gullet):

Watcher: "If you do business here, perhaps you should learn the culture."

Seduzo: "In a few years, these people will all learn our ways and pay homage to the ranga nui." Her brow furrows.

The opinion of a single nationalist is hardly reflective of a nation's entire foreign policy, is it?  

 

I'd say they expect the Huana to assimilate. The changes in language, housing, economy, philosophy of living (Huana adapting to landscape vs Rauatai conquering it) will have long lasting effects. Seeing Sayuka was intriguing and very interesting. And yes, caste system is incredibly unfair (and in Neketaka it reached the peak dysfunction) but Rauatai doesn't change it from the goodness of their heart .

Nobody changes anything out of the pure goodness of their heart. Everyone has an agenda.

 

Another thing to consider is that every culture changes and intermixing is a natural process. I'm not sure where the idea that cultures should remain distinct and immutable comes from, but there's nothing unusual in the Huana or Rauataian culture changing as a result of what happens to them in the Deadfire. Conservative, reactionary elements in Huana society might vie for a preservation of the old ways, but the entire point is that they are not sustainable - Neketaka is at odds with these traditional ways, as is Onekaza's policy, while the recapture of Ukaizo will transform Huana and their culture even further. 

 

Rauatai will also be changed by the recapture of Ukaizo and the subsequent cessation of storms across their mainland. It's also why I consider the unification of Deadfire under Rauatai's banner to be one of the more interesting endings, as not only brings it change for Rauatai and the Huana, but it also unites two divergent bloodlines that separated in the wake of Ondra's cataclysm two thousand years ago.

 

That will mean change. And change is good.

[handsomenat]

Well. Seduzo's comment stood out but then there's also the woman who's after Arkemyr's stone tablet, Maia... The overall feeling most Rauatai NPCs gave me was positioning themselves as superior to Huana. And when they say culture you can hear the scare quotes.

 

Sure, culture changing and inter-mixing is a natural process. But here Rauatai is literally trying to conquer Huana.

Frankly the idea of Kahanga state the way it is, gaining more power via control of Ukaizo frightens me. They can't provide for their own people and aren't really interested in reform so whatever Ukaizo would give them would likely just cement that mess.

 

And yes I agree that Rauatai would change and probably most dramatically of all factions, maybe except for Furrante's Principi. A stable mainland with less natural disasters with a chance to allow more cultivation? People whose national identity was build around being extremely hardy and inventive now having their lives made considerably easier? It is intriguing but still... conquering doesn't sit right with me. There's a line that comes back a few times when someone (Watcher usually iirc?) suggests they just make peace: "on whose terms?".

[Vitalis]

I think you mean integration, not assimilation. Rauatai doesn't appear to be engaged in any sort of Kulturkampf, it simply imposes its rule and laws, and moves on. The undersecretary at Sayuka is an overzealous minor functionary who tries to pull it off, only to be mocked by the Huana greeter at every turn (if it was actual Kulturkampf, the mocking would be followed by repercussions).

 

Besides, the Huana shedding the caste divisions is nothing but good. I'd like to remind everyone that the Huana are strictly divided at birth into castes where the least are literally given trash to eat and meant to starve in times of lean. Notably, the Mataru - the top dogs - are pissed off at the longhouse. The Kuaru and the Roparu are much less annoyed by it. Hell, the weaver and the laborer who get a chance to teach each other skills thanks to the proximity introduced by the longhouse are quite happy (and both mock the stomping, shouting Mataru who bemoans the change... While having the single most luxurious place in the building).

I couldn't care less about the Huana, they've already lost, they just aren't smart enough to realize it.

 

Rauatai is handling assimilation by giving benefits to the less off, the Kauru and Roparu, while waiting for the Mataru to cause trouble before clamping down on them. The Mataru are the warrior/leader caste and will do exactly what those classes have down throughout history, violentaly fight against it.

 

The Wahaki are already waging a war against all outsiders, admittedly due to influence by Thaos, but even they aren't stupid enough to not accept the aid of Mataru fighting assimilation. This in turn would result in a conflict as bloody, if not worse due to geography, as the American Indian Wars.