The most nagging unexplained plothole in PoE2 (Endgame spoilers)

[militarybeetle]

When Eothas goes to destroy the Wheel him and the gods claim that this will bring the cycle of reincarnation to a halt.

 

I think that the gods have once again lied to the Watcher because the Wheel is probably what enables the gods to exist/exercise their influence over the Beyond (Like dictating who's soul gets reincarnated where/when).

 

What makes the claim ring falsely with me is that surely civilization could not have progressed to Engwithan levels if there wasn't an innate cycle of rebirth. They certainly needed more than one generation to figure out how to build the Wheel. How could Engwithan newborns gain souls? I don't know if this is stated anywhere but the souls could surely only come from the Beyond, meaning that there must be a way that souls can progress from stage to stage without the wheel (my bet is that Adra is this natural conduit).

 

Anyway I was surprised the Watcher gets no opportunity to question such an obvious logical gap.

 

Maybe I just missed some piece of the story which explains that? Let me know

[omgFIREBALLS]

As I understand it: the Wheel is a natural process that predates the Engwithans, but they altered it so that their gods could draw energy from it. I am guessing that Eothas destroying the machine means the Wheel breaks rather than just reverting to its original state.

 

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Od_Nua could be a good read.

[uuuhhii]

common misconception

reincarnation exist before engwithan wheel doesn't mean destroy engwithan wheel doesn't have any influence

or reincarnation circle will go back to what it was

[Verde]

Maybe the Wheel actually feeds the Gods. I twist where they are lying to you would be intriguing then you could take it to them finally in PoE3.

 

Biggest plot hole to me is how they dont do ****. I mean their only plan is to send you and blow up a Volcano.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Verde

[Tick]

Josh explained that this detail was cut from the game.  Alex Scokel (sp?) detailed how this works as follows:

 

Reincarnation existed prior to the gods. It was a natural process. The Engwithans made a device to manage that process. Eothas smashed it.



The smashing of the device does NOT however, necessarily result in the natural process resuming as it did previously.



For example (and it's only an example - not a direct allegory for how the Wheel functions), let's say someone dams a river, creating a lake, but regulates that lake by allowing some of the water through the dam (for, say, hydroelectric power). Someone breaking the machinery that allows that regulation would not undam the river.

 

[jtbehnke]

Not to mention the use of a Wheel as a metaphor for the cycle of reincarnation (as opposed to the physical machine of the same name)  is a paradigm the Engwithans created and imposed on Eora's later cultures.  So there are in essence TWO Wheels, the metaphorical one that describes reincarnation and the literal one that is a machine that siphons souls from reincarnation to empower the gods.  Eothas broke the literal Wheel, but as far as kith know, the Wheel as a concept is effectively still there, as apart from the gods and a very select few mortals (most of whom are yourself and your party members), no one knew the literal Wheel existed.

[uuuhhii]

Not to mention the use of a Wheel as a metaphor for the cycle of reincarnation (as opposed to the physical machine of the same name)  is a paradigm the Engwithans created and imposed on Eora's later cultures.  So there are in essence TWO Wheels, the metaphorical one that describes reincarnation and the literal one that is a machine that siphons souls from reincarnation to empower the gods.  Eothas broke the literal Wheel, but as far as kith know, the Wheel as a concept is effectively still there, as apart from the gods and a very select few mortals (most of whom are yourself and your party members), no one knew the literal Wheel existed.

possibly not a very accurate understanding

gods couldn't have need wheel for essence when gods and engwithan wheel first build the plan was give gods giant body

so they are likely can always draw essence from eora the way eothas or wizard and chanter did

and machine of ukaizo are only a crucial point of engwithan wheel

luminous adra are clearly still part of it

the concept of wheel are of couse likely to be originally ancient engwithan myth about reincarnation

but engwithan animancy give them the ability to create new system base on their design and call it wheel are only natural

Edited August 6, 2018 by uuuhhii

[jtbehnke]

I'm not sure what you're saying, uuuhhii.  I was under the impression that the Gods did not not exist prior to the literal Wheel, and that part of its function was to facilitate the Gods' construction.  Is that not accurate?  What I was trying to say was to elaborate on Tick's point that the reincarnation cycle does not depend on the machine the Engwithans built, and that the whole idea of reincarnation as a wheel was a label the Engwithans placed on the cycle and the name they gave to their machine as well, but that machine's destruction doesn't mean we're going to see some sort of future crisis that's essentially the Hollowborn except not localized in the Dyrwood and without a means to be cured resulting in the extinction of Eora's peoples, like what happens if you convince Eothas the world is beyond saving and encourage him to just destroy it.

[Tick]

I'm not sure what you're saying, uuuhhii. I was under the impression that the Gods did not not exist prior to the literal Wheel, and that part of its function was to facilitate the Gods' construction. Is that not accurate? What I was trying to say was to elaborate on Tick's point that the reincarnation cycle does not depend on the machine the Engwithans built, and that the whole idea of reincarnation as a wheel was a label the Engwithans placed on the cycle and the name they gave to their machine as well, but that machine's destruction doesn't mean we're going to see some sort of future crisis that's essentially the Hollowborn except not localized in the Dyrwood and without a means to be cured resulting in the extinction of Eora's peoples, like what happens if you convince Eothas the world is beyond saving and encourage him to just destroy it.

You're accurate on the first part for sure, I think! However, I think the implication is that the natural cycle has been *changed* in a deep way by the Engwithin technology, and so when Eothas brute force breaks it, it's not just going to go back to what it was before. We've "broken the dam," but that doesn't fix the river or the environment around it.

 

So as I understand it, this *is* going to cause a Hollowborn 2.0 and life will cease to exist without a semi rapid fix.

 

The whole reason Eothas did it was to make kith recognize the reality about the gods and get more independence and self reliance, and decide whether or not they want the gods to be part of their future. It's also supposed to put pressure on both gods and kith to cooperate and put them on a more equal playing field.

[jtbehnke]

 

I'm not sure what you're saying, uuuhhii. I was under the impression that the Gods did not not exist prior to the literal Wheel, and that part of its function was to facilitate the Gods' construction. Is that not accurate? What I was trying to say was to elaborate on Tick's point that the reincarnation cycle does not depend on the machine the Engwithans built, and that the whole idea of reincarnation as a wheel was a label the Engwithans placed on the cycle and the name they gave to their machine as well, but that machine's destruction doesn't mean we're going to see some sort of future crisis that's essentially the Hollowborn except not localized in the Dyrwood and without a means to be cured resulting in the extinction of Eora's peoples, like what happens if you convince Eothas the world is beyond saving and encourage him to just destroy it.

You're accurate on the first part for sure, I think! However, I think the implication is that the natural cycle has been *changed* in a deep way by the Engwithin technology, and so when Eothas brute force breaks it, it's not just going to go back to what it was before. We've "broken the dam," but that doesn't fix the river or the environment around it.

 

So as I understand it, this *is* going to cause a Hollowborn 2.0 and life will cease to exist without a semi rapid fix.

 

The whole reason Eothas did it was to make kith recognize the reality about the gods and get more independence and self reliance, and decide whether or not they want the gods to be part of their future. It's also supposed to put pressure on both gods and kith to cooperate and put them on a more equal playing field.

 

Yikes!  I did NOT realize that was the case (I really need to get around to actually playing the games instead of waffling around worrying if I'm playing the game right.).  I guess we know where the series will go in Deadfire's sequel then!

[Tick]

Hahaha. I've done that a bit myself.

 

Yeah! I'm really hoping there'll be another game exploring the consequences and trying to fix things up, and that the development and all that goes well. I find the potential premise(s) really exciting and interesting.