Josh:"The Watcher don't have particular reason to fight Eothas."

[Guest]

If the plot is meant to set up Pillars of Eternity 3, then I certainly hope we get it.

Paraphrase of what Obsidian said about part 2: “There was always going to be a sequel. If part 1 didn’t sell well, we would have pivoted to try to correct whatever was lacking, but having our own IP is just too valuable to *not* keep building products around”

 

So yes, I think it’s pretty safe to assume that the events of Deadfire are a lead-up for Part 3.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Achilles

[Guest Blutwurstritter]

 

In the end Eothas destroys the wheel whether you followed him or not. It doesn't make a hoot of difference.

...which doesn’t matter because the point of the game isn’t to stop him.

 

 

During the game i pretty much was under the impression that the whole point of the ordeal was to stop Eothas from destroying the Wheel. In hindsight i may agree with what you said but during the game it sounded like the destruction of the wheel would lead to a Catastrophe, so the thought of stopping Eothas comes naturally in my opinion. Whatever the point of the game is, it is not unambiguously clear until your finished with the game.

Also, after finishing the game i wondered why the f*ck Eothas couldn't talk it out with me the first time we met. What was the goddamn point of waiting for me a bunch of times; just to drop his lines ? Like others said, the whole ordeal felt quite pointless. 

[Guest]

 

 

In the end Eothas destroys the wheel whether you followed him or not. It doesn't make a hoot of difference.

...which doesn’t matter because the point of the game isn’t to stop him.

 

 

During the game i pretty much was under the impression that the whole point of the ordeal was to stop Eothas from destroying the Wheel. In hindsight i may agree with what you said but during the game it sounded like the destruction of the wheel would lead to a Catastrophe, so the thought of stopping Eothas comes naturally in my opinion. Whatever the point of the game is, it is not unambiguously clear until your finished with the game.

Also, after finishing the game i wondered why the f*ck Eothas couldn't talk it out with me the first time we met. What was the goddamn point of waiting for me a bunch of times; just to drop his lines ? Like others said, the whole ordeal felt quite pointless. 

 

You don't even know what he's up to until Ashen Maw, which is nearly the end of the game.

You *do* start off the game knowing that he has your soul and that you will die unless you retrieve it.

 

"Hunt a god. Save your soul"

[AeonsLegend]

 

In the end Eothas destroys the wheel whether you followed him or not. It doesn't make a hoot of difference.

...which doesn’t matter because the point of the game isn’t to stop him.

 

Yea I get that. I didn't say I wanted to. I'm saying whatever you do has no impact on what unfolds. So there is no point to you being there. That's my gripe. My gripe isn't with not being able to kill or stop Eothas, my gripe is that the only way to have impact is to stop him and you don't.

[Guest Blutwurstritter]

 

 

 

In the end Eothas destroys the wheel whether you followed him or not. It doesn't make a hoot of difference.

...which doesn’t matter because the point of the game isn’t to stop him.

 

 

During the game i pretty much was under the impression that the whole point of the ordeal was to stop Eothas from destroying the Wheel. In hindsight i may agree with what you said but during the game it sounded like the destruction of the wheel would lead to a Catastrophe, so the thought of stopping Eothas comes naturally in my opinion. Whatever the point of the game is, it is not unambiguously clear until your finished with the game.

Also, after finishing the game i wondered why the f*ck Eothas couldn't talk it out with me the first time we met. What was the goddamn point of waiting for me a bunch of times; just to drop his lines ? Like others said, the whole ordeal felt quite pointless. 

 

You don't even know what he's up to until Ashen Maw, which is nearly the end of the game.

You *do* start off the game knowing that he has your soul and that you will die unless you retrieve it.

 

"Hunt a god. Save your soul"

 

 

It was a hyperbole to call it the "whole point", but certainly it was a major development and is a central point of the main plot line. While the loss of your soul was the initial motivator, stopping Eothas from destroying the wheel is what kept me going on to the final confrontation. 

"Hunt a god. Save your soul", is quite silly now that i think about it. Did anyone get the impression that the watcher hounded Eothas and actively saved his soul by his own power ? I got the impression that i inconvenienced Eothas at best and was granted my soul due to Eothas capriciousness.

[gkathellar]

 

In the end Eothas destroys the wheel whether you followed him or not. It doesn't make a hoot of difference.

...which doesn’t matter because the point of the game isn’t to stop him.

 

 

You keep saying that, but it seems to me that there's a whole slate of people who felt otherwise. It could be that they're all just unequivocally wrong, or it could be that the point is not as unambiguously, obviously presented as you seem to insist.

 

"Hunt a god. Save your soul", is quite silly now that i think about it. Did anyone get the impression that the watcher hounded Eothas and actively saved his soul by his own power ? I got the impression that i inconvenienced Eothas at best and was granted my soul due to Eothas capriciousness.

 

Indeed. It might be more accurate if the tagline were, "Follow a god around. Politely ask for the return of your soul."

 

And I mean that's not to bash the premise of following a god around and politely asking for the return of your soul - that could be a totally reasonable story. It's just not the story Deadfire advertises, and only inconsistently the actual story it has.

[Guest]

 

 

In the end Eothas destroys the wheel whether you followed him or not. It doesn't make a hoot of difference.

...which doesn’t matter because the point of the game isn’t to stop him.

Yea I get that. I didn't say I wanted to. I'm saying whatever you do has no impact on what unfolds. So there is no point to you being there. That's my gripe. My gripe isn't with not being able to kill or stop Eothas, my gripe is that the only way to have impact is to stop him and you don't.

I guess I’m trying to understand why you think it should. There are lots of things that you have no impact on in the game. In any game. Yet you keep coming back to this one.

[Guest]

 

 

In the end Eothas destroys the wheel whether you followed him or not. It doesn't make a hoot of difference.

...which doesn’t matter because the point of the game isn’t to stop him.

You keep saying that, but it seems to me that there's a whole slate of people who felt otherwise. It could be that they're all just unequivocally wrong, or it could be that the point is not as unambiguously, obviously presented as you seem to insist.

Yeah, there definitely are some people who manufactured expectations not based on what the game said it was, but rather what they think it should have been. They are free to do so (and thus produce their own disappointment). Doesn’t mean the game didn’t do what it did said it was going to do (and arguably, do it well) Edited July 28, 2018 by Achilles

[gkathellar]

 

 

 

In the end Eothas destroys the wheel whether you followed him or not. It doesn't make a hoot of difference.

...which doesn’t matter because the point of the game isn’t to stop him.

You keep saying that, but it seems to me that there's a whole slate of people who felt otherwise. It could be that they're all just unequivocally wrong, or it could be that the point is not as unambiguously, obviously presented as you seem to insist.

 

Yeah, there definitely are some people who manufactured expectations not based on what the game said it was, but rather what they think it should have been. They are free to do so (and thus produce their own disappointment). Doesn’t mean the game didn’t do what it did said it was going to do (and arguably, do it well)

 

Mm, so people who disagree with you are either incorrect in their analysis or intellectually dishonest? Okay then, have fun being right about things. I'm out.

[house2fly]

I guess a good question would be, after Ashen Maw why did you think the goal was to stop Eothas? That's the point at which Sawyer expected players to realise Eothas was unstoppable because a) he's a god, b) he's the size of a skyscraper, c) he walks away from a volcanic eruption without a scratch. If you came away from that wanting/expecting to fight Eothas still then Sawyer's story presumably has failed there. Figuring out what gave you that impression might be useful for future projects

Edited July 28, 2018 by house2fly

[AeonsLegend]

 

 

 

In the end Eothas destroys the wheel whether you followed him or not. It doesn't make a hoot of difference.

...which doesn’t matter because the point of the game isn’t to stop him.

 

Yea I get that. I didn't say I wanted to. I'm saying whatever you do has no impact on what unfolds. So there is no point to you being there. That's my gripe. My gripe isn't with not being able to kill or stop Eothas, my gripe is that the only way to have impact is to stop him and you don't.

 

I guess I’m trying to understand why you think it should. There are lots of things that you have no impact on in the game. In any game. Yet you keep coming back to this one.

 

You're trying to think why it should matter that you were there? That whether you were there or not has no significance?

 

So you're basically saying it's ok to be the main character in the story and have no relevance? Like not even trying to be relevant? Because that's basically what this game forces you to do. They don't even allow you to fail, you fail by default.

[Guest]

 

 

 

 

In the end Eothas destroys the wheel whether you followed him or not. It doesn't make a hoot of difference.

...which doesn’t matter because the point of the game isn’t to stop him.

Yea I get that. I didn't say I wanted to. I'm saying whatever you do has no impact on what unfolds. So there is no point to you being there. That's my gripe. My gripe isn't with not being able to kill or stop Eothas, my gripe is that the only way to have impact is to stop him and you don't.

I guess I’m trying to understand why you think it should. There are lots of things that you have no impact on in the game. In any game. Yet you keep coming back to this one.

You're trying to think why it should matter that you were there? That whether you were there or not has no significance?

 

So you're basically saying it's ok to be the main character in the story and have no relevance? Like not even trying to be relevant? Because that's basically what this game forces you to do. They don't even allow you to fail, you fail by default.

As others have pointed out, the Watcher does have a great deal of relevance...just not when it comes to stopping a god. Which is fine with me because the objective of the game was never to stop a god. “Fail” assumes that there was an objective. There wasn’t. *You* seem to think there was and I can’t figure out where that comes from other than expectations you created.

[Guest Blutwurstritter]

I guess a good question would be, after Ashen Maw why did you think the goal was to stop Eothas? That's the point at which Sawyer expected players to realise Eothas was unstoppable because a) he's a god, b) he's the size of a skyscraper, c) he walks away from a volcanic eruption without a scratch. If you came away from that wanting/expecting to fight Eothas still then Sawyer's story presumably has failed there. Figuring out what gave you that impression might be useful for future projects

 

I did not expect that the player would fight the statue directly, that was obviously not intended by the game and conveyed properly.

But a dialogue choice or an indirect way to stop Eothas is not that much of an stretch of an idea, afterall he listens to you words at times.

Furthermore he was defeated by the Godhammer prior to PoE1, showing that there are means to stop a god. For example, the animancy experiments with the glowing Adra could have been used to faciliate an option of diverting Eothas. It is a fantasy RPG after all, so doing something seemingly impossible is not unheard of.

I was rather taken aback that eventually not a single option was provided. To make it clear, these options do not require a fight with Eothas or his destruction or conflict at all, and i am sure the writers could have devised a thought-provoking alternative. The lack of such an alternative and therefor your inability to influence the outcome regarding the destruction of the wheel is the source of my criticism of the main quest line. 

For me it was not clear that this was never supposed to be an option at all.

[Guest]

 

I guess a good question would be, after Ashen Maw why did you think the goal was to stop Eothas? That's the point at which Sawyer expected players to realise Eothas was unstoppable because a) he's a god, b) he's the size of a skyscraper, c) he walks away from a volcanic eruption without a scratch. If you came away from that wanting/expecting to fight Eothas still then Sawyer's story presumably has failed there. Figuring out what gave you that impression might be useful for future projects

I did not expect that the player would fight the statue directly, that was obviously not intended by the game and conveyed properly.

But a dialogue choice or an indirect way to stop Eothas is not that much of an stretch of an idea, afterall he listens to you words at times.

Furthermore he was defeated by the Godhammer prior to PoE1, showing that there are means to stop a god. For example, the animancy experiments with the glowing Adra could have been used to faciliate an option of diverting Eothas. It is a fantasy RPG after all, so doing something seemingly impossible is not unheard of.

I was rather taken aback that eventually not a single option was provided. To make it clear, these options do not require a fight with Eothas or his destruction or conflict at all, and i am sure the writers could have devised a thought-provoking alternative. The lack of such an alternative and therefor your inability to influence the outcome regarding the destruction of the wheel is the source of my criticism of the main quest line.

For me it was not clear that this was never supposed to be an option at all.

And what if the Wheel needs to be destroyed for the Pillars 3 plot? Is it better to give you a choice now that will be retconned at the beginning of the next game or make the plot about something else and never have it come up in the first place?

[house2fly]

Worth reiterating that you're not just a passive observer when the Wheel is broken, and you can make a difference. You just can't stop the Wheel being broken, just like you can't stop the Battle Of Hoover Dam in New Vegas

[aksrasjel]

I guess a good question would be, after Ashen Maw why did you think the goal was to stop Eothas? That's the point at which Sawyer expected players to realise Eothas was unstoppable because a) he's a god, b) he's the size of a skyscraper, c) he walks away from a volcanic eruption without a scratch. If you came away from that wanting/expecting to fight Eothas still then Sawyer's story presumably has failed there. Figuring out what gave you that impression might be useful for future projects

 

Speaking from my personal experience - it's beacuse the game continues after Ashen Maw.

I was told that Eothas wants to destroy the Wheel, he cannot be stopped and there is nothing to be done about it. Yet the game insists on going forward and to continue my "hunt" for Eothas.

 

Usually after hearing that, players assume that the game is lying to them and there must be the way to counter that. We've heard that spiel before. And doing the impossible and fighting against all odds is what protagonists have been doing since the dawn of time - starting probably from Greek myth. Plus, you have other gods on your side and there was this smelly hobo called Durance in PoE 1 who *did* manage to stop a god - temporality, but it counts IMO. So taken at face value - the possibility of stopping Eothas exists. And credit where it's due - this is one of those of very rare times that the story does not lie to the player. The writer managed to pull a brilliant subversion of an old trope. It's just while you can subvert any trope you wish, it doesn't mean you always should - tropes exist for a reason.

Telling player straight up that they won't stop a big threat that was set up for them leaves them with nothing to do - so the story either has to stop on a tragic realisation of the futility of their actions or keep going and negate that or waste the players/readers/viewers time confirming that. And nobody likes their time being wasted. I still remember people being pissed off about Dragon Age 2 story.

 

So, seen in this light, yes, players expectations were wrong. In my case, I never actually expected to fight Eothas in physical combat (beacuse, honestly, it's probably impossible even from technical standpoint - the Unity engine would probably explode). I expected to stop his plans in some other creative way - beacuse doing the impossible is what fantasy stories - and stories in general - in videogames taught me. So, I guess it's on me and the story was telling the truth. I guess it's clever on writers part - but does it make good storytelling?

Imagine Frodo Baggins being told that he won't succeed in destroying One Ring. And after all his struggles to get to Mount Doom he actually fails to do that, the Ring takes over, he becomes a Ringwraith and the story ends on a nihilistic note. Fun times. I guess the monomyth would be to blame for audience's dissapointment.

 

And I understand that PoE 2 exists beacuse writers have a great idea for a PoE 3 story. But why aren't they telling the PoE 3 story instead then? Seriously, you can start Deadfire with the Wheel being already broken by Eothas while you were "dead" and not much would be lost. I would argue it would make for a much cooler story.

Edited July 28, 2018 by aksrasjel

[house2fly]

I don't believe POE2 exists to set up POE3, at the very least not just to do that. I believe the point was to take the earth-shattering revelation from the end of POE1 and make it actually earth-shattering. P1's reveal that the gods are fake pretty much just affected the player character and friends; P2's affects the entire world. Stopping Eothas from breaking the Wheel would mean you're preserving the status quo, and if you like the status quo that's a fair goal, but it really only serves the gods

[topologista]

Anybody can sail into Ondra's Mortar. But without a way to navigate through the storms they're doomed. Even after you get your soul back in Ashen Maw there's still something "connecting" you to him. (I don't remember how the game describes it. Something about gaps in your own soul.) So you can basically use him as a big ol' lighthouse to sail right to Ukaizo. 

Edited July 28, 2018 by topologista

[Guest Blutwurstritter]

 

 

I guess a good question would be, after Ashen Maw why did you think the goal was to stop Eothas? That's the point at which Sawyer expected players to realise Eothas was unstoppable because a) he's a god, b) he's the size of a skyscraper, c) he walks away from a volcanic eruption without a scratch. If you came away from that wanting/expecting to fight Eothas still then Sawyer's story presumably has failed there. Figuring out what gave you that impression might be useful for future projects

I did not expect that the player would fight the statue directly, that was obviously not intended by the game and conveyed properly.

But a dialogue choice or an indirect way to stop Eothas is not that much of an stretch of an idea, afterall he listens to you words at times.

Furthermore he was defeated by the Godhammer prior to PoE1, showing that there are means to stop a god. For example, the animancy experiments with the glowing Adra could have been used to faciliate an option of diverting Eothas. It is a fantasy RPG after all, so doing something seemingly impossible is not unheard of.

I was rather taken aback that eventually not a single option was provided. To make it clear, these options do not require a fight with Eothas or his destruction or conflict at all, and i am sure the writers could have devised a thought-provoking alternative. The lack of such an alternative and therefor your inability to influence the outcome regarding the destruction of the wheel is the source of my criticism of the main quest line.

For me it was not clear that this was never supposed to be an option at all.

And what if the Wheel needs to be destroyed for the Pillars 3 plot? Is it better to give you a choice now that will be retconned at the beginning of the next game or make the plot about something else and never have it come up in the first place?

 

Generally, i would hope that they are smart enough and have good enough writers to avoid retconning anything but if i had to choose i would prefer a retcon at the beginning of the third game, since the success of the second game will setup the third. So the quality of the second game should preferably high to ensure that a third game will come at all and is funded properly.

 

If the destruction of the wheel is required for the story of the third part, they should have moved the whole topic to the third part. Making the second part about getting your soul back and shifting the wheel business to the third part would have avoided the problem entirely.

But generally, all of this is based on speculations about the contents of the third part, which is a bit too presumptuous for my tastes.

[handsomenat]

Ok, if we're bringing up our expectations we had for the main quest, then maybe I could share mine. I pursued Eothas to learn more of his plan. From the first conversation with him and the later at Hasongo I got a feeling of impending doom. I thought he is either bringing end of the world or he knows something's up and tries to stop it. I chased him because I wanted to learn. I expected that the game will then tell me that actually, despite the destruction he leaves in his wake, Eothas is doing the right thing. And this will be the point where Berath's chime comes in to play and Watcher is forced to either obey Berath or join Eothas at a risk of getting killed. Well, it's not quite what happened and I was left confused about the implications of breaking the Wheel and there's was no chime drama. My biggest gripe is not enough lore and making Ukaizo so short. But I didn't really think my job was to stop him. I don't know, I was still kinda disappointed in this plotline but for different reasons it seems.

[house2fly]

Regarding the Lord Of The Rings example, LOTR is a story about good triumphing against evil- the Ring is destroyed by a team effort of self-sacrifice, love, faith and mercy, because the author wanted to show that those things are good. The characters are heroes we should aspire to, not just Aragorn and Gandalf but Frodo and Sam.

 

Deadfire isn't about the same thing; you're not on a heroic quest to destroy evil. The game's authors don't really talk about themes, but based on the material and trying to relate the main quest to the factions, I'd say:

 

Deadfire is a story about the march of history and the ever-evolving state of the world. The Deadfire is in flux, pulled between the factions; it's not the same now as it was, and in the future it won't be as it is today. Eothas is history itself made manifest, and you can't stop him any more than you can stop time passing. You can't hold onto the past, but you're a part of history as well and you can influence the future. The new world won't be as the old was, but you (we) have a voice in the shape of the future

[Guest]

The game's authors don't really talk about themes

Unintended consequences.

 

The people of Ukaizo trying to enrich their culture but ultimately causing its destruction instead. Eothas adopting drastic measures to reveal the nature of the gods because his first attempt didn’t go as planned. It’s all over the companion quests, the conversations they start with you, etc

[Vitalis]

 

I guess a good question would be, after Ashen Maw why did you think the goal was to stop Eothas? That's the point at which Sawyer expected players to realise Eothas was unstoppable because a) he's a god, b) he's the size of a skyscraper, c) he walks away from a volcanic eruption without a scratch. If you came away from that wanting/expecting to fight Eothas still then Sawyer's story presumably has failed there. Figuring out what gave you that impression might be useful for future projects

I did not expect that the player would fight the statue directly, that was obviously not intended by the game and conveyed properly.

But a dialogue choice or an indirect way to stop Eothas is not that much of an stretch of an idea, afterall he listens to you words at times.

Furthermore he was defeated by the Godhammer prior to PoE1, showing that there are means to stop a god. For example, the animancy experiments with the glowing Adra could have been used to faciliate an option of diverting Eothas. It is a fantasy RPG after all, so doing something seemingly impossible is not unheard of.

I was rather taken aback that eventually not a single option was provided. To make it clear, these options do not require a fight with Eothas or his destruction or conflict at all, and i am sure the writers could have devised a thought-provoking alternative. The lack of such an alternative and therefor your inability to influence the outcome regarding the destruction of the wheel is the source of my criticism of the main quest line.

For me it was not clear that this was never supposed to be an option at all.

When Eothas was blown up by the Godhammer he was inhabiting a mortal body. Now hes in an ancient statue with the power of who knows how many souls fueling him. After Ashen Maw, it should be apparent that there is no way to destroy Eothas.

[Heijoushin]

The game has plenty of themes, even if they don't mention them outright.

 

It's true, as some people have said, that you do change the history of the Deadfire. Choosing which faction comes out on top is pretty significant. However, after you come back from Ashen Maw, fresh with the revelation that Eothas is going to potentially destroy all life on the planet, the squabbles of Deadfire's factions seem so... petty and irrelevant. Okay, so I've backed the queen. Doesn't matter if all life on the planet is extinguished in a generation or two.

 

I think this is because they don't explain Eothas' motives properly, but the final two conversations with him are such downers. He's breaking the cycle of life and death to prove some great philosophical point about the nature of people and the gods, and screw the consequences. That's like two kings starting a war for some noble cause. Sure, to them it sounds noble, but it's the little people who are going to get hurt. Some god of goodness. 

 

Achilles?

Edited July 28, 2018 by Heijoushin

[AeonsLegend]

 

You're trying to think why it should matter that you were there? That whether you were there or not has no significance?

 

So you're basically saying it's ok to be the main character in the story and have no relevance? Like not even trying to be relevant? Because that's basically what this game forces you to do. They don't even allow you to fail, you fail by default.

As others have pointed out, the Watcher does have a great deal of relevance...just not when it comes to stopping a god. Which is fine with me because the objective of the game was never to stop a god. “Fail” assumes that there was an objective. There wasn’t. *You* seem to think there was and I can’t figure out where that comes from other than expectations you created.

 

Let's just agree that you disagree with most people then. What you and a few others have mentioned as being relevant many others including myself have discarded as actually being relevant. Well, at least you felt important doing things that would have also happened without you there. I rather be doing something that was actually important. But hey, we all have different things we enjoy.

 

The game has plenty of themes, even if they don't mention them outright.

 

It's true, as some people have said, that you do change the history of the Deadfire. Choosing which faction comes out on top is pretty significant. However, after you come back from Ashen Maw, fresh with the revelation that Eothas is going to potentially destroy all life on the planet, the squabbles of Deadfire's factions seem so... petty and irrelevant. Okay, so I've backed the queen. Doesn't matter if all life on the planet is extinguished in a generation or two.

 

I think this is because they don't explain Eothas' motives properly, but the final two conversations with him are such downers. He's breaking the cycle of life and death to prove some great philosophical point about the nature of people and the gods, and screw the consequences. That's like two kings starting a war for some noble cause. Sure, to them it sounds noble, but it's the little people who are going to get hurt. Some god of goodness. 

 

Achilles?

I felt that Eothas was one of the biggest morons I've ever had to endure in video games. This is why I also really started to hate Xoti. But then again she appears to have around 80 IQ as well.

 

Whoever controls Ukaizo is kinda meh. I don't see how this affects the Deadfire in the end. But most importantly I don't see how any of this game affects my PC. I don't care that I change some political strife to sway a tad more to a single faction. I care how my character is linked to what is going on. Now if my character was the one taking control of Ukaizo then it kay have had some sort of relevance, but giving it to some pirates, some warmongerers, or money grabbers or the Queen. Well I don't really care either way.

 

People say there you do significant things. I disagree, but whatever. And Even if you do impact some things, I don't see how any of that has to do with my character. My character has no personal stake in those things.

Edited July 29, 2018 by AeonsLegend