Lore questions that confuse me (SPOILERS)

[Vaneglorious]

Hello.

 

I'm kind of confused by this, to be honest. Could somebody who knows the lore better shed some light on this matter? Just throwing out random thoughts that come to mind.

 

Thaos mentioned the Wheel in his final dialogue with you like it's a natural part of the world however, in Deadfire this was changed to being another Engwithan creation to sustain the gods. And if it's an artificial construct, how did souls work before its construction?

 

The other one is that isn't Rymrgand a bit of a hypocrite? He's eager to let everything erode away, strongly confirmed at the end of Deadfire if you told Eothas to do just that, while he himself is above his own end? Not to mention he told you in Teir Evron that after entropy, there is new life...yet his ending just resulted in the end of all life.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Vaneglorious

[Tick]

Is this....spoilery?  I think this is kind of spoilery.

 

I don't think the Wheel was retconned. 

 

Explanation in spoilers to be safe:

 

 

We already know from Josh Sawyer that content was cut explaining the whole deal, so we don't really know what happened to the Wheel, but from the knowledge we do have, I believe that there was a natural "wheel" (maybe not literally) that reincarnated souls.  The Engwithins just modified it or replaced it in the process of creating their gods.  That modification/replacement may have just been for the new gods to work, or it may have been to improve or "improve" it in some other way, too.  But now, the only Wheel we have is the one the Engwithins changed or made.

 

 

[Vaneglorious]

Is this....spoilery?  I think this is kind of spoilery.

 

I don't think the Wheel was retconned. 

 

Explanation in spoilers to be safe:

 

 

We already know from Josh Sawyer that content was cut explaining the whole deal, so we don't really know what happened to the Wheel, but from the knowledge we do have, I believe that there was a natural "wheel" (maybe not literally) that reincarnated souls.  The Engwithins just modified it or replaced it in the process of creating their gods.  That modification/replacement may have just been for the new gods to work, or it may have been to improve or "improve" it in some other way, too.  But now, the only Wheel we have is the one the Engwithins changed or made.

 

 

I did put (SPOILERS) in the title.

 

I see. Well that makes sense. The problem with these games is that I've like a hundred questions, but I didn't bother to make a list of my own to ask in one big go. But if somebody else notices something particular, they can post it here. Maybe it isn't a retcon, just appears as such.

[anathanielh]

Should be placed in the Deadfire spoilers forum. Amentep may move it.

[Tick]

Oh! So you did.  It still may need to get moved to the Spoilers board.

 

You could change it to a "This bugs me/what's going on here?" thread or a "Lore questions thread" or something?  If that's more the vibe you're going for.  (Obviously, you can keep it the same too)  There has definitely been a little confusion about the story/lore.

 

Edit: Ninja'd.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Tick

[handsomenat]

It's my understanding that The Engwithans build over the Wheel or reworked it in order to sustain their newly created gods by soul plankton that sheds from souls each time they re-enter the cycle. Maybe the gods were created so that the cycle of reincarnation could be manipulated in favorable way to Engwithans? Though this claim isn't that well supported; we have Thaos who was Woedica's favorite and we have those poor Pale Elves who were trapped into reincarnating in the same place over and over and after Awakening decided to commit final suicide via Frost-Hewn Breach. So it looks like to some extent the re-incarnation process can be manipulated by gods. That's how I understand it. I don't think it's a retcon. (Though I still don't understand how breaking the Wheel differs from destroying the Wheel, i.e. how Eothas manages to break it just a little? so it still works... but doesn't. Basically I'm still not sure what the ending means).

[Vaneglorious]

Oh! So you did.  It still may need to get moved to the Spoilers board.

 

You could change it to a "This bugs me/what's going on here?" thread or a "Lore questions thread" or something?  If that's more the vibe you're going for.  (Obviously, you can keep it the same too)  There has definitely been a little confusion about the story/lore.

 

Edit: Ninja'd.

You're right, of course, I'm just uncertain where to post this, because the spoilers section is called "stories" . But if it's posted in the wrong place, a mod will move it anyhow.

 

edit: I changed the title and the original post, now it's different.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Vaneglorious

[Rheios]

Its worth noting that Thaos in POE mentions that without the gods the wheel would grind souls to dust - so it would appear that while Rymyrgand is in charge of that entropy process now, he's not really the originator of it. And from the way that POE's Endless Paths talked about the Nua child statue, and Old Nua's goal to forcibly pull his son back from the beyond, it seems to me like the former process of reincarnation was spotty, inconsistent, or troublesome even for the Engwithans, like a river that periodically backs up between 'soul floods' or something, and the Engwithans sortof damned it up and kept things at an even and consistent circular flow. Just feeding off the resulting Entropy to empower their stewardship over creation.

But I tend to have a fairly positive view over the concept of the Gods, even if I find that, in practice, some of them bicker or panic a bit to fast. Thankfully Berath's there to keep things tempered.

[Vaneglorious]

Its worth noting that Thaos in POE mentions that without the gods the wheel would grind souls to dust - so it would appear that while Rymyrgand is in charge of that entropy process now, he's not really the originator of it. And from the way that POE's Endless Paths talked about the Nua child statue, and Old Nua's goal to forcibly pull his son back from the beyond, it seems to me like the former process of reincarnation was spotty, inconsistent, or troublesome even for the Engwithans, like a river that periodically backs up between 'soul floods' or something, and the Engwithans sortof damned it up and kept things at an even and consistent circular flow. Just feeding off the resulting Entropy to empower their stewardship over creation.

 

But I tend to have a fairly positive view over the concept of the Gods, even if I find that, in practice, some of them bicker or panic a bit to fast. Thankfully Berath's there to keep things tempered.

So why's it being mentioned that Eothas breaking the artificial Wheel is actually breaking the natural counterpart, as well? I remember when I first completed the game it was mentioned several times how souls wouldn't be part of the reincarnation cycle anymore at all.

 

That's why I'm confused about this Wheel business. If there's a default natural Wheel outside of the Engwithan machine, breaking it would simply revert it back to its natural function, wouldn't it? So reincarnation would still be a thing, no?

[Tick]

Alex S. answered this question recently in the dev stream thread, actually!

 

 

 

Reincarnation existed prior to the gods. It was a natural process. The Engwithans made a device to manage that process. Eothas smashed it.

 

 

 

The smashing of the device does NOT however, necessarily result in the natural process resuming as it did previously.

 

 

 

For example (and it's only an example - not a direct allegory for how the Wheel functions), let's say someone dams a river, creating a lake, but regulates that lake by allowing some of the water through the dam (for, say, hydroelectric power). Someone breaking the machinery that allows that regulation would not undam the river.

 

 

 

[handsomenat]

Ok with an example like this I guess I now understand the difference between breaking the Wheel and destroying it completely.

[Vaneglorious]

Alex S. answered this question recently in the dev stream thread, actually!

 

 

 

Reincarnation existed prior to the gods. It was a natural process. The Engwithans made a device to manage that process. Eothas smashed it.

 

 

 

The smashing of the device does NOT however, necessarily result in the natural process resuming as it did previously.

 

 

 

For example (and it's only an example - not a direct allegory for how the Wheel functions), let's say someone dams a river, creating a lake, but regulates that lake by allowing some of the water through the dam (for, say, hydroelectric power). Someone breaking the machinery that allows that regulation would not undam the river.

 

 

 

I see. I get to enjoy the game's lore more if I understand the whys and hows.

 

I wonder what happens without the reincarnation cycle, though. Kind of sounds like sentient life is doomed, and so are the gods.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Vaneglorious

[Rheios]

Alex S. answered this question recently in the dev stream thread, actually!

 

 

 

Reincarnation existed prior to the gods. It was a natural process. The Engwithans made a device to manage that process. Eothas smashed it.

 

 

 

The smashing of the device does NOT however, necessarily result in the natural process resuming as it did previously.

 

 

 

For example (and it's only an example - not a direct allegory for how the Wheel functions), let's say someone dams a river, creating a lake, but regulates that lake by allowing some of the water through the dam (for, say, hydroelectric power). Someone breaking the machinery that allows that regulation would not undam the river.

 

 

 

I'm actually a little proud that my analogy about the damn and the inconsistently overflowing river was so close.

[anathanielh]

 

Alex S. answered this question recently in the dev stream thread, actually!

 

 

 

Reincarnation existed prior to the gods. It was a natural process. The Engwithans made a device to manage that process. Eothas smashed it.

 

 

 

The smashing of the device does NOT however, necessarily result in the natural process resuming as it did previously.

 

 

 

For example (and it's only an example - not a direct allegory for how the Wheel functions), let's say someone dams a river, creating a lake, but regulates that lake by allowing some of the water through the dam (for, say, hydroelectric power). Someone breaking the machinery that allows that regulation would not undam the river.

 

 

 

I see. I get to enjoy the game's lore more if I understand the whys and hows.

 

I wonder what happens without the reincarnation cycle, though. Kind of sounds like sentient life is doomed, and so are the gods.

 

Basically, yeah. 

I have 2 takes on this (Because I'm not the biggest lore freak and don't understand all of it myself).

 

1) If the pool of souls is finite, (Meaning population on Eora can only reach a set maximum due to running out of souls in the wheel) then life is screwed and it's basically like Waidwen's legacy in the first game, but for the whole planet (Waidwen's Legacy EX).

 

2) If every new birth has a chance of adding a new soul to the world (inside of the baby, of course), then population will decrease dramatically with a very small chance of survival. Essentially it's Waidwen's Legacy Lite.

 

 

If I'm wrong about any of this, then I'd appreciate any correction.

Edited July 18, 2018 by anathanielh

[Vaneglorious]

I wonder how many new souls are being created from nothing, though. I mean, souls were originally created by nature from nothing, even Thaos said that.

[house2fly]

 

Alex S. answered this question recently in the dev stream thread, actually!

 

 

 

Reincarnation existed prior to the gods. It was a natural process. The Engwithans made a device to manage that process. Eothas smashed it.

 

 

 

The smashing of the device does NOT however, necessarily result in the natural process resuming as it did previously.

 

 

 

For example (and it's only an example - not a direct allegory for how the Wheel functions), let's say someone dams a river, creating a lake, but regulates that lake by allowing some of the water through the dam (for, say, hydroelectric power). Someone breaking the machinery that allows that regulation would not undam the river.

 

 

 

I see. I get to enjoy the game's lore more if I understand the whys and hows.

 

I wonder what happens without the reincarnation cycle, though. Kind of sounds like sentient life is doomed, and so are the gods.

From what Eothas says, the idea is that

the gods and kith will work together to fix the Wheel. The kith need the gods to understand the technology, and the gods need the Wheel to survive because part of its purpose is to sustain them by sending souls their way. So to keep that function of the Wheel the gods will have to prove to kith that they're worthy of it, ultimately leading to a future where gods and kith work together

 

Edited July 19, 2018 by house2fly

[Vaneglorious]

 

 

Alex S. answered this question recently in the dev stream thread, actually!

 

 

 

Reincarnation existed prior to the gods. It was a natural process. The Engwithans made a device to manage that process. Eothas smashed it.

 

 

 

The smashing of the device does NOT however, necessarily result in the natural process resuming as it did previously.

 

 

 

For example (and it's only an example - not a direct allegory for how the Wheel functions), let's say someone dams a river, creating a lake, but regulates that lake by allowing some of the water through the dam (for, say, hydroelectric power). Someone breaking the machinery that allows that regulation would not undam the river.

 

 

 

I see. I get to enjoy the game's lore more if I understand the whys and hows.

 

I wonder what happens without the reincarnation cycle, though. Kind of sounds like sentient life is doomed, and so are the gods.

From what Eothas says, the idea is that

the gods and kith will work together to fix the Wheel. The kith need the gods to understand the technology, and the gods need the Wheel to survive because part of its purpose is to sustain them by sending souls their way. So to keep that function of the Wheel the gods will have to prove to kith that they're worthy of it, ultimately leading to a future where gods and kith work together

 

Makes sense. Although Eothas is taking a big risk then. He's pretty much forwarding the notion that "you either make peace and work as a team, or you all perish" .

[AndreaColombo]

Makes sense. Although Eothas is taking a big risk then. He's pretty much forwarding the notion that "you either make peace and work as a team, or you all perish" .

 

And in order to issue his unsolicited ultimatum, he first provokes a war that takes countless lives across Raedceras and the Dyrwood, then turns himself into a giant walking biawac that kills countless kith just passing by.

 

He's a fracking psychopath is what he is.