Fascism and the Sith

[Adria Teksuni]

This has turned into a very interesting read.

 

Agreed on how confusing it is when discussing "The Sith".

 

Is that the race, the combined Jedi/racial culture, or the Dark Jedi religion? Meh.

 

The Sith are all about survival of the fittest, and doing what you think is best to first ensure your own survival, and second to forward your own goals, by any means necessary. (Which is Social Darwinism with a twist, IMHO.)

 

There are a lot of comparisons between the Sith/Galactic Empire and the Third Reich, the utter destruction of those different from they being the most obvious. While the methods may differ, the desired end results were the same; the complete subjugation of everyone and everything that was not them.

 

This is one of the reasons why I respect the Palpatine character so much. It would take someone made of tungsten carbide to be able to keep a political organization based on those creeds from self destructing (as the Third Reich was about to do when they were defeated by the Allies.) He managed to keep such a crushing grip on those beneath him that not only did he actually accomplish what he set out to do, he managed to make it stick for decades.

[Ivan the Terrible]

"How interesting.

 

If you listen closely to the tenets of the Sith, it seems quite reasonable on the surface. Who doesn't want to be free? They also, however, espouse freedom from the restrictions of morality... they are a superior people, gifted with the Force as few others are and therefore handed a genetic right to dominate the less-gifted.

 

Sound a little familiar to anything else you've ever heard of?

 

Maybe it should. I based the Sith teachings as I wrote them in Korriban on Nazi philosophy. Think about THAT for a moment. "

With all due respect to Herr Gaider, I'm a World War II buff....and the Sith on Korriban are not preaching much that resembles Nazism.

 

There's a lot of Nietzsche in what they're saying, but Uthar and Yuthura are too big on the 'every man for himself' doctrine; 'National Socialism' preached the sublimation of the individual towards the state, whereas the Sith teachings seem to teach 'look out for number one and screw everyone else.'

 

In practice, of course, the Nazi higher-ups were corrupt and often looked out for themselves to the detriment of the state....but that certainly wasn't part of their doctrine.

[Lohengrin]

"How interesting.

 

If you listen closely to the tenets of the Sith, it seems quite reasonable on the surface. Who doesn't want to be free? They also, however, espouse freedom from the restrictions of morality... they are a superior people, gifted with the Force as few others are and therefore handed a genetic right to dominate the less-gifted.

 

Sound a little familiar to anything else you've ever heard of?

 

Maybe it should. I based the Sith teachings as I wrote them in Korriban on Nazi philosophy. Think about THAT for a moment. "

With all due respect to Herr Gaider, I'm a World War II buff....and the Sith on Korriban are not preaching much that resembles Nazism.

 

There's a lot of Nietzsche in what they're saying, but Uthar and Yuthura are too big on the 'every man for himself' doctrine; 'National Socialism' preached the sublimation of the individual towards the state, whereas the Sith teachings seem to teach 'look out for number one and screw everyone else.'

 

In practice, of course, the Nazi higher-ups were corrupt and often looked out for themselves to the detriment of the state....but that certainly wasn't part of their doctrine.

I dont think there is a lot of actual Nietzche in their ideology.Only the populist understanding of Nietzche, wich the Nazis also incorporated into their ideology/propaganda.The sith ideology isnt a perfect match with nazism, but its close enough for it to be an apperant inspiration.

[Gorth]

Look how Hitler tortured and killed those Jews.Although,palpatine and Malak killed many innocent people,but doesn't really torture all of them.They gave them a quick death.

Perhaps we should leave the jews out of the equation, first off they were not the largest sufferers (that was either the russians or the chinese/koreans, depending on the what is the true number for the latter) and second, it would turn it into a real life political discussion.

 

Lets just say that guys like Hitler, Hideki and Stalin, between them, got a lot of people killed to further their own personal ambitions.

 

The destruction of Taris, which probably killed more people than all of WWII and later in Star Wars history, the destruction of Princess Leias homeplanet (whatsitsname?) by the Death Star, simply to intimidate and rule through fear.

 

Although used as a mean to an end, fear is not a goal in itself for Fascism. It's about the state controlling people for the greater good of the state, whereas with the Sith it "seems" to be more about the individual and the means used to advance within the Sith hierarchy and then advancing the Sith cause secondary.

 

Casual cruelty is more a trait, that they seem to share.

[JediMasterRevan]

Leia's homeworld is alderaan.

[Ivan the Terrible]

I dont think there is a lot of actual Nietzche in their ideology.Only the populist understanding of Nietzche, wich the Nazis also incorporated into their ideology/propaganda.The sith ideology isnt a perfect match with nazism, but its close enough for it to be an apperant inspiration.

Really, you don't think there is a lot of Nietzsche in the Sith teachings? I know that the Nazis distorted a lot of his ideas....but isn't the 'Will to Power', the triumph of the new man over conventional morality, still a part of those beliefs?

 

The Sith ideology, btw, is like taking Nazism to the point of absurdity. Instead of having a 'Master Race', the Sith ideology promotes each individual as his or her own 'Master Race' without acknowledging any real need for loyalty to the whole. Judging by what you learn at the Academy, a proper Sith should lie to his superiors, steal credit for things he didn't do, advance his own power to the detriment of the Sith as a whole, and generally and at all times undermine the group in favor of himself.

 

Even the Nazis, wacky Social Darwinists that they were, weren't so enslaved to those ideas that they let them override common sense.

[Adria Teksuni]

Unless they were insane, of course.

[Lohengrin]

I dont think there is a lot of actual Nietzche in their ideology.Only the populist understanding of Nietzche, wich the Nazis also incorporated into their ideology/propaganda.The sith ideology isnt a perfect match with nazism, but its close enough for it to be an apperant inspiration.

Really, you don't think there is a lot of Nietzsche in the Sith teachings? I know that the Nazis distorted a lot of his ideas....but isn't the 'Will to Power', the triumph of the new man over conventional morality, still a part of those beliefs?

 

The Sith ideology, btw, is like taking Nazism to the point of absurdity. Instead of having a 'Master Race', the Sith ideology promotes each individual as his or her own 'Master Race' without acknowledging any real need for loyalty to the whole. Judging by what you learn at the Academy, a proper Sith should lie to his superiors, steal credit for things he didn't do, advance his own power to the detriment of the Sith as a whole, and generally and at all times undermine the group in favor of himself.

 

Even the Nazis, wacky Social Darwinists that they were, weren't so enslaved to those ideas that they let them override common sense.

Nietzches philosophy is to complex to be in any way accuratly portrayed by simple slogans such as "will to power" For me, he is one of the most difficult philosophers to understand , but reducing his social theories to soundbites is certainly doing him grave injustice.

 

The Star Wars version does take nazism to absurd lenghts (Not that it isnt absurd to begin with), but this is Star Wars and it holds up as an analogy even if it is sillier than its real life counterpart.

[Draxle]

George Lucas made EVERYTHING.

No he didn't.

 

He made about 10% and took credit for the rest...

Opus, you do realize I was being sarcastic when I said that, right?

[Child of Flame]

How about Facist Darwinism with a side of Nazi? That would to me describe it best....don't know though, as I'm not much of a philosophy buff (yet).

[Yoda Tokare]

In the game why did Malak say Taris is pathetic?Offering no resistance does not mean pathetic at all.

 

 

 

The ideal of the Sith is very simple,"the weak ones must die,"and they think this makes them very strong.So I think it is their idea is kindda like Charles Darwin's

Theory,"the strongest and the fittest must survive."

[Lohengrin]

In the game why did Malak say Taris is pathetic?Offering no resistance does not mean pathetic at all.

 

 

 

The ideal of the Sith is very simple,"the weak ones must die,"and they think this makes them very strong.So I think it is their idea is kindda like Charles Darwin's

Theory,"the strongest and the fittest must survive."

That is social darwinism not darwinism. Social darwinism is a pervertion of Darwins theorys. Darwin never mention anything about the strongest, and even the term "survival of the fittest" is one he sort of reluctantly borrowed from the populist philosopher Herbert Spenser. When Darwin uses the term "fittest" he simply means the ones who are the most able to adapt to their enviroment, be it cokroaches or worms. Nothing about strenght or superiority.

 

Social darwinism twists the theory of evolution into the idea of it being a competition between species and races, where the strongest and best will defeat the weaker and inferior, and that this somehow represents some kind of natural morality that is needed to ensure the continued survival and well being of ones race/species.

 

Social darwinists will even seek to impose their misguided brand of darwinism on economic policys, claiming that it is moraly right for the poor to remain poor, and the suppressed to remain suppressed, because it is supposed to reflect the natural order of things.

[Strict31]

Too bad Lucas made the Galatic Empire and not the Sith ...

 

Getting your facts confused XBoxer?

That's an odd comment since Darth Vader was Dark Lord of the Sith long before EU was spawned. Of course, EU developed the non-canon Sith, following, as much as possible what has subsequently been shown in the new movies. And admittedly, they have developed their non canon Sith far more than Lucas has developed his Sith. But Lucas did create the Sith, even if it was only a cool sounding name or a barely fleshed out concept.

 

Before EU was even a twinkle in their daddy's eye.

 

 

Strictly Speaking

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

I dont think there is a lot of actual Nietzche in their ideology.Only the populist understanding of Nietzche, wich the Nazis also incorporated into their ideology/propaganda.The sith ideology isnt a perfect match with nazism, but its close enough for it to be an apperant inspiration.

Really, you don't think there is a lot of Nietzsche in the Sith teachings? I know that the Nazis distorted a lot of his ideas....but isn't the 'Will to Power', the triumph of the new man over conventional morality, still a part of those beliefs?

 

The Sith ideology, btw, is like taking Nazism to the point of absurdity. Instead of having a 'Master Race', the Sith ideology promotes each individual as his or her own 'Master Race' without acknowledging any real need for loyalty to the whole. Judging by what you learn at the Academy, a proper Sith should lie to his superiors, steal credit for things he didn't do, advance his own power to the detriment of the Sith as a whole, and generally and at all times undermine the group in favor of himself.

 

Even the Nazis, wacky Social Darwinists that they were, weren't so enslaved to those ideas that they let them override common sense.

Actualy you find that NAZI leaders in general hated each other and had all kinds of little things going off to try and gain more and more power, Hitler basically controlled the power and played them all against each other, using the competition of such power struggles to advance his own needs.

 

I think the Sith are linked.

[Zane0]

I think you could call the Sith a little anarchistic too.

 

Main Entry: an

[Vanidar Skywalker]

I think the sith are more like Nazis than anything.

[Gorth]

I think the Sith have borrowed a few doctrines here and there from systems that are generally labelled as evil by the winning sides

 

What I wouldn't give to be able to read a history book in 500 years time...

[Nartwak]

What I wouldn't give to be able to read a history book in 500 years time...

You're not the only one.

[Drakron]

That's an odd comment since Darth Vader was Dark Lord of the Sith long before EU was spawned. Of course, EU developed the non-canon Sith, following, as much as possible what has subsequently been shown in the new movies. And admittedly, they have developed their non canon Sith far more than Lucas has developed his Sith. But Lucas did create the Sith, even if it was only a cool sounding name or a barely fleshed out concept.

 

Before EU was even a twinkle in their daddy's eye.

 

 

Strictly Speaking

Not odd, Vader title is Dark Lord of the Sith but as many things on Star Wars it mean nothing, it was just Darth Vader title.

 

Did Lucas did anything to Alderan besides the lines that Leia speaks on Ep. IV? or the Bothan in Ep. VI? the Correlian ships that Han mention on Ep IV?

 

Sith was a word, the connection to the Sith as we taken is from the EU, Lucas did nothing except giving that word to Vader title as "Dark Lord of the".

 

The Sith as descrived on the EU predates the prequels, in fact EU simply adapted to the prequels and used Palpatine actor slight error and created a huge battle 1000 years before Ep I to explain the rule-of-two, they even adapted Jedi Knight series Valley of the Jedi as the place were such battle taken place.

 

EU is aproved by Lucas companies so George Lucas knew of the Sith as proposed in the "Tales of the Jedi" series and that was allowed, Lucas also used many things on EU, such as Corruscant that is a complete EU creation (he did not even named the planet).

[Strict31]

Not odd, Vader title is Dark Lord of the Sith but as many things on Star Wars it mean nothing, it was just Darth Vader title.

 

Did Lucas did anything to Alderan besides the lines that Leia speaks on Ep. IV? or the Bothan in Ep. VI? the Correlian ships that Han mention on Ep IV?

 

Sith was a word, the connection to the Sith as we taken is from the EU, Lucas did nothing except giving that word to Vader title as "Dark Lord of the".

 

The Sith as descrived on the EU predates the prequels, in fact EU simply adapted to the prequels and used Palpatine actor slight error and created a huge battle 1000 years before Ep I to explain the rule-of-two, they even adapted Jedi Knight series Valley of the Jedi as the place were such battle taken place.

 

EU is aproved by Lucas companies so George Lucas knew of the Sith as proposed in the "Tales of the Jedi" series and that was allowed, Lucas also used many things on EU, such as Corruscant that is a complete EU creation (he did not even named the planet).

Even if the term is only a word, as you say, Lucas still made that word. True or false? EU is approved by Lucas' people mainly so that it does not improperly use any of his material and so that it remains as consistent as possible with his so-called "vision." EU predates the prequels, and current EU material tries to follow the prequels as closely as possible, yes. But Lucas's planning for the prequels predates the EU. Obvious from both the numbering of the initial movies and from his original statement in the 80s that he had envisioned nine movies.

 

I would submit that there is no way for either of us to know what Lucas planned for the term "Sith" when he wrote the characters and story for Star Wars ANH. Maybe to him it really was just a cool sounding word. Maybe he had a plan in mind. We're not likely to know either way. But the simple truth of the matter is, while EU may have significantly developed their vision of the Sith, Lucas still made the Sith, in addition to making the Galactic Empire. He simply developed one more than the other. Anything beyond that is mere speculation.

 

 

Strictly Speaking

[EUIX]

The Sith are Social Darwinists.

[Dead Skin Mask]

Too bad Lucas made the Galatic Empire and not the Sith ...

 

Getting your facts confused XBoxer?

Looks like somebody believes in PC facism. He plays games on the PC wow! <_<

 

 

Cheers!

[Drakron]

Wrong, I am a PS2 supremesist.

 

[EnderAndrew]

Too bad Lucas made the Galatic Empire and not the Sith ...

 

Getting your facts confused XBoxer?

In the screenplay and novel for ANH, Vader is called the Dark Lord of the Sith, so yes, Lucas created the Sith.

 

The "Tales of" comics greatly expanded on the mythos of the Sith, but their cannon is very questionable. George Lucas then came up with the Master/Apprentice Sith concept that made it's way into the Episode 1 Novel, story by George Lucas. The characters of Darth Vader, Darth Bane, Darth Maul, Darth Tyranus, Darth Sidious, etc, were all created by George Lucas.

 

To say that Lucas didn't invent the Sith is pretty ridiculous. Your elitist, arrogant comments are both uncalled for, and incorrect. You have repeatedly made it clear that your vast "knowledge" of Star Wars comes from forums. Perhaps you should pick up a "book". They're much better sources of information.

 

And for the record, I've read over 100 Star Wars novels, various comics, played all the games, and roleplayed in the Star Wars universe for 12 years. So I know quite a bit about Star Wars cannon, and Star Wars EU. At the same time, I own an X-Box, and played KOTOR on the X-Box. I'm not anti-PC, and I plan to buy KOTOR:2 on the PC. I just found it used, and got it much cheaper on the X-Box. Playing a game on a console does not mean that a person lacks intelligence, or the right to an opinion. I could make an argument that many PC titles are making the shift to Diablo clones of click-and-kill, while many console titles like Xenosaga, Star Ocean, and Final Fantasy appeal to a more cerebral audience.

 

The truth is, I don't really believe the console or PC market corners intelligent gaming. Both offer a choice of games, to a variety of audiences. Personally, the only think I find foolish, is dismissing a large number of games out of hand, because they are on a console.

 

That's why I own six differnt consoles and multiple computing platforms. I'll give them all a try, and let the game speak for itself.

 

Oh, and back on topic...

 

The comments of basing off the Third Reich come from a Newsweek article shortly before Episode 2 came out. Lucas said he studied the way Empires rose and fell in history, and applied those lessons to Episode 2. Palpatine's siezing of the Senate is very much akin to Hitler's rise to "emergency" power.

[EnderAndrew]

Wrong, I am a PS2 supremesist.

 

Generally, I prefer the PS2 as well. They have many PS2-specific titles that I enjoy. The difference in graphics between the two consoles isn't vast. I just wish the PS2 shipped with a HDD, four controller support, and networking capabilities instead of charging to add these things on.

 

However, it is worth noting that KOTOR didn't come out on the PS2, it came out on the X-Box. Instead of being surpremist, or elitist, I invested in multiple consoles and play whatever game I want.