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[spoiler][rant] Communing with the gods after the Ashen Maw.

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that was not the best time for history research

and gods definetly not giving much history lesson

what is the point of asking?

not giving answer are far from not making sense

The problem is that this fact is completely ignored. Had the gods brushed it off or acted enigmatic, that's one thing, but for EVERY to act like there was never a time before the Engwithen's Wheel is ridiculous.

 

it is a question only lead to more question

why build the new wheel

is the old one broke

So the gods could eat the essence from it.

 

gods used to have body

possiblity of them unable to draw soul from adra pillar or living thing like eothas does are low

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Unfortunately Josh only writes that they cut the dialogues where Eothas describes how the stuff worked before. But doesn't write how... in the post itself.

Lol

 

I don't think they're tying to scare or confuse the Watcher. I think their writing just assumes you understand what's going on.

Edited by Tick

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I don't think they're tying to scare or confuse the Watcher. I think their writing just assumes you understand what's going on.

 

I'm not sure. There is that bit of dialogue with the factions representatives after the Ashen Maw when somebody (Aeldys I think?) asks what will happen when there is no Wheel anymore. You then get three or four reply options ranging from "We are all dooooomed" to "To be honest, I have no idea, it's not like this ever happened before". It left me with impression that the Watcher is supposed to be somewhat ignorant about how things really work.

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There was a wheel before and I thought that reincarnated peeps. I'm gonna have to read the Sawyer post again.

Both Iovara and Thaos do mention that there was a Wheel before Engwithans.
"the wheel" was probably the name for the Engwithan belief in how reincarnation worked, so when they made their own machine to control reincarnation they called it the Wheel(note that it doesn't actually look like a wheel)
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Unfortunately Josh only writes that they cut the dialogues where Eothas describes how the stuff worked before. But doesn't write how... in the post itself.

He believes that if something isn't in the story the author's perspective is no more valid than anyone else's. Note this post: https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/173973262826/pillars-of-eternity-2-spoilers-as-i-understand

He's careful to specifically only refer to published material. This means they can theoretically patch in extra dialogue where Eothas or someone explains more, but he as the author can't just declare something that isn't in the story. Or rather he can, but so can you

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I don't think they're tying to scare or confuse the Watcher. I think their writing just assumes you understand what's going on.

I'm not sure. There is that bit of dialogue with the factions representatives after the Ashen Maw when somebody (Aeldys I think?) asks what will happen when there is no Wheel anymore. You then get three or four reply options ranging from "We are all dooooomed" to "To be honest, I have no idea, it's not like this ever happened before". It left me with impression that the Watcher is supposed to be somewhat ignorant about how things really work.

Good point! There are responses where you can partially explain it, but you're right, I forgot about that.

Edited by Tick

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Unfortunately Josh only writes that they cut the dialogues where Eothas describes how the stuff worked before. But doesn't write how... in the post itself.

Lol

 

I don't think they're tying to scare or confuse the Watcher. I think their writing just assumes you understand what's going on.

 

more likely they assume it doesn't matter

rebuild the engwithan wheel are almost impossible for kith today

rebuild older wheel will unlikely be any easier

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As far as I remember from the first game, the Engwithans did believe there was a cycle, but that there were plentiful other cultures that had other interpretations and beliefs and gods. Then the Engwithans got deep into metaphysical research and ended up disproving existing religions, and realized that they had *no idea* what happened after death. And in their frustration and fear of the unknown they *built* a wheel and created the Gods to define things like birth and death, tribulations, passion, evolution, law, and rebellion. Others too of course, but the main point being that the Engwithans realized, or thought they realized, everyone was wrong and that everybody *could* be doomed but they didn't know for sure.  

So, honestly? I don't think the Gods know what happens afterwards either. What happens after the wheel they created is destroyed. Maybe all their conglomerated selves, sustained by the souls in the In-between that will slowly bleed out to who knows where, will evaporate. They may fear the world will end too, but I think they fear more that *their* world will end.

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Thaos’s reference to the Wheel:

Skip to 41:43

Uh-huh. The wheel existed before the Engwithens. This definitely needs to be retconned.

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Uh-huh. The wheel existed before the Engwithens. This definitely needs to be retconned.

It's possible the original wheel was formed through some kind of metaphysical evolution, but once the Engwithans inserted themselves in it, it became a new wheel, as the changes were not reversible. 

Edited by Suen

I've come to burn your kingdom down

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Uh-huh. The wheel existed before the Engwithens. This definitely needs to be retconned.

It's possible the original wheel was formed through some kind of metaphysical evolution, but once the Engwithans inserted themselves in it, it became a new wheel, as the changes were not reversible. 

 

That is the general consensus, however this isn't a question of how life existed before the Engwithan's wheel. Rather its about how everyone is losing their **** over this without anyone bothering to point out that life existed before the Engwithan's wheel. And, as pointed out, the watcher (and gods) know that the wheel had existed before the Engwithans.

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Only because something existed in the past it doesn't mean it can be recreated easely, or by itself, or at all. 


I've come to burn your kingdom down

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Only because something existed in the past it doesn't mean it can be recreated easely, or by itself, or at all. 

Yes. But again, that isn't the point. The point is that this isn't addressed at all.

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Rewatching that video, it seems I remembered incorrectly. I thought that, after the absence of gods form Egwithan mythology that the wheel was a belief they just created to be true along with the deities, but after a little rereading, it seems it was more about the gods and consistency of reincarnation. Maybe souls getting stuck in Hel was a common problem previously? Its where Maros Nua was supposed to be drawn from, but that without Gods individuals like Od Nua went to great lengths to try and preserve or enforce the flow in some way. Ironically Thaos's comment about grinding souls is exactly what Rymrgand's whole shtick is, so it seems the options are 'inconsistent reincarnation that eventually breaks souls down' or 'consistent reincarnation with someone who controls how the souls break down'. So Eothis seems to be breaking the consistency of the cycle in that case, but I can agree that they probably need to put in some stuff to clarify more of Eoathis's position.

I still think most of the Gods are ignorant about the full scope of how things work without their intervention, simply because they've never existed without it. Although maybe they are more knowledgeable and its just that Eothas, in some absurd quest to see if humanity has 'improved', plans to destroy the ability to reincarnate *at all*, every variation of the wheel, by blocking it up through destroying the parts the gods were previously controlling. Like the path existed but the Gods put in spirit flow controls and insulation and a pump back to birth and by Eothas destroying the pump he's not just not just reverting to the old cycle but actually *blocking* the old with pieces of the new and consistent cycle. It'd explain why they talk about the In-between actually emptying. 

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