Barbarian research thread

[Dr <3]

I'm going to test this things soon, uless someone else doesn't already know:

 

- wizard slayer spell disruprion chance staks? I mean, when i hit someone for the second time what happen?

1) duration refresh and that's all

2) full stack --> now 50% spell failure --> after 4 hits you have 100% failure chance

3) partial stack : 25% of spell failure, if non failure : new check with 25 failure ecc

 

- the carnage dmg (33% of dmg) gets calculated before or after the lashes? Or simpler: can i ise lash dmg to boost carnage dmg?

[KDubya]

When I tavern fight club two party members the Wizard Slayer's spell deisruption shows as 25% per hit and it stacks, so I hit my guy three times and it has -75% spell disruption. You can't tell on enemies as you can't mouseover their stats. After four hits its 100% spell disruption.

 

I don't recall ever seeing a lash on carnage. I do remember using the pet that adds +15% AoE damage and hoping it'd add to the 33% of Carnage but it multiplies instead so a 27 damage hit gets 9 carnage and the pet makes it 10.5 damage not the 13 i was hoping for.

[kmbogd]

Do we know how the carnage formula works? I've got some really weird numbers and I don't know how to derive them.

Edited June 10, 2018 by kmbogd

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

From what I can tell carnage only inflicts a third of base weapon damage as raw damage, no special effects from weapons or abilities seems to affect it barring barbaric Blow and maybe Heart of Fury(the latter which I haven't tested). This means it's a lot less valuable than the PoE carnage(in addition to being unable to see the radius like you could in PoE), and I think they should change carnage to be 50% of weapon attacks using the attack role and any modifiers so it takes into account lashes, ability use, etc. Especially considering the new armor/penetration system is theoretically a lot friendlier to lower damage attacks like Carnage than PoE's Damage Reduction.

Edited June 11, 2018 by KaineParker

[Dr <3]

Ok up to now:

- as kdubya already noted spell disruption stacks perfectly. So after 4 hits you got 100% failure chance (capped). But the timing of every single hit is different, so they also fade in order, not all togheter. So Dual wielding and full attacks are very good for wizard slayer, instead using a 2 hander is not advisabe, at least if you want to maximize the spell disruption.

 

- carnage dmg DO NOT take in account the lashes. Actually in the tooltip it says " 33% of weapon base dmg", but for "base dmg" i think is intended the dmg that you see in your inventory screen ( base dmg of weapon + might modifier + weapon quality + other passives es. +20% dmg from stand alone).

 

Extras:

- carnage dmg don't have a reduction if carnage "grazes". So graze and hits does same dmg. I've not checked crits.

- all attacks trigger carnage : a full attack trigger carnage 2 times

[dunehunter]

Ok up to now:

- as kdubya already noted spell disruption stacks perfectly. So after 4 hits you got 100% failure chance (capped). But the timing of every single hit is different, so they also fade in order, not all togheter. So Dual wielding and full attacks are very good for wizard slayer, instead using a 2 hander is not advisabe, at least if you want to maximize the spell disruption.

 

- carnage dmg DO NOT take in account the lashes. Actually in the tooltip it says " 33% of weapon base dmg", but for "base dmg" i think is intended the dmg that you see in your inventory screen ( base dmg of weapon + might modifier + weapon quality + other passives es. +20% dmg from stand alone).

 

Extras:

- carnage dmg don't have a reduction if carnage "grazes". So graze and hits does same dmg. I've not checked crits.

- all attacks trigger carnage : a full attack trigger carnage 2 times

 

Another example where 2h weapons are inferior.

[UltimaLuminaire]

Thank you, Dr <3. I also suspect from the way the visual effect flares out from the target that Carnage has been changed into some kind of cone or limited projection like AoE, which is why it's hard to hit enemies a certain distance to the sides or at an angle towards your MC's sides. It's pretty easy to hit enemies extending a pike out forward from your MC.

Love the observation on grazes. I've seen carnage crit since I've used Barbaric Blow a lot over my 7+ playthroughs of the first 20 hours, each using different configurations of Boeroer's old PoE tank Barbarian build, translated for Deadfire (so max might, perception, int, and resolve). The penetration doesn't matter and the extra 25% damage does apply. So 9 carnage damage would end up at 11.25, more if you're using Killer Gloves and the pet mentioned by KDubya.

@dunehunter That's self evident. Luckily there are niche things you can do with 2h. Sanguine Great Sword is consistently good for sudden healing in big fights, Whispers of the Endless Paths procs carnage on anything caught in the cone, and there's funny stuff like the Eager Blade acc + action speed buff that relies only on getting a crit (doesn't matter if with carnage or not, and Bounding Strike will proc carnage lol). The damage doesn't fall far behind despite using 2h for self-buff because attack speed has diminishing returns and you reset your primary weapon often mid-game. Barbaric Blow costs 2 Rage, which is expensive but reasonable. Always best to multi-class for more Full Attacks if you need more damage, because pure Barbarian is terrible at renewable nova.

Edited June 11, 2018 by UltimaLuminaire

[bigwillystyle]

This appears to be the thread where the cool kids are.  Dr. <3, always a pleasure.  I did eventually get around to getting my only Triple Crown Solo with my Anvil a few months ago - never did try for Frozen Crown - had a blast, thanks again.

 

So, I'm playing a Warlock at the moment, Berserker / Wizard.  I just picked up the Whispers Greatsword to test out a retaliation build.  Remember the good old days of POE 1 when Retaliation generated Carnage?  Goal of testing this week is to see how good it can be in this build.  Whispers 100% Ripostes and adds +5 Deflection.  Maxed out Resolve.  Wizard's Double, Mirror Image and (nerfed) Llengrath's are incoming.  +7 Defl Cloak.  Working on the questline for the Casita armor.  I took Berserker, but starting to regret that - probably won't want Frenzy active in a Riposte build.  

 

Separately, does using a Blunderbuss, each hit proc Spell Disruption?  Because with 4 pellets that's 100% disruption if all 4.  That would rock.  Disrupt the mage in one full attack with dual wielded blunderbusses and proceed to wreck faces.

[UltimaLuminaire]

Frenzy in a Riposte build seems fine unless you are also casting Spirit Shield, which does not stack with the active armor bonus from your improved Frenzy. The extra pen and Might, though, is still great and should function with your Riposte build without issue. If it's the raw damage, you can use whiteleaf or eat food for some passive regen. If it safely takes you to bloodied, you'll be able to take advantage of Bloodied without relying on enemies hitting you.

[bigwillystyle]

Frenzy in a Riposte build seems fine unless you are also casting Spirit Shield, which does not stack with the active armor bonus from your improved Frenzy. The extra pen and Might, though, is still great and should function with your Riposte build without issue. If it's the raw damage, you can use whiteleaf or eat food for some passive regen. If it safely takes you to bloodied, you'll be able to take advantage of Bloodied without relying on enemies hitting you.

 

The bigger concern in a Riposte build is the deflection malus that comes with Frenzy.  I'll play around with it a little.  

[kmbogd]

I don't have access to my computer at the moment but the damage I've seen from carnage on a 20th lvl character was way above the 33%  that is mentioned in the tooltip. I will post some examples later, maybe we can understand them together.

 

Also one thing that I noted was that even though there is a roll for attack resolution, crits don't exist. I've had a case with way above 100 hit resolution but it was considered just a hit. Based on what Dr <3 said about grazes, it looks like carnage attacks don't take into account grazes or crits.

[UltimaLuminaire]

I don't have access to my computer at the moment but the damage I've seen from carnage on a 20th lvl character was way above the 33%  that is mentioned in the tooltip. I will post some examples later, maybe we can understand them together.

 

Also one thing that I noted was that even though there is a roll for attack resolution, crits don't exist. I've had a case with way above 100 hit resolution but it was considered just a hit. Based on what Dr <3 said about grazes, it looks like carnage attacks don't take into account grazes or crits.

I'll need to investigate my game. There has been damage variation on my end that combat log attributed to crit and now it's bothering me because your explanation is definitely in line with how it should work given interactions with graze.

Edited June 11, 2018 by UltimaLuminaire

[ErlKing]

Few notes about Corpse-Eater:

Special food that boost Power Level affect only Barbarian, so if you multiclass it with caster you won;t get additional Power Level. I'm sad, it was last redeemable potential feature of Corpse-eater. He doesn't actually have any barbarian powers that would benefit much from boosted Power Level.

Heal on eating corpse is nice, but +1 cost of abilities makes it really hard to use any.

 

Another thing is that crits and some spells often destroy bodies, preventing Corpse eater from actually eating.

 

Overall I would say it is worse than default barbarian in almost everything. I had hopes that he might be good for multiclass with casters, but no, it doesn't work.

[KDubya]

My Wizard Slayer/ Shattered Pillar is like level nine now.

 

Observations:

• magic disruption is nice against casters but wish it stopped all special abilities if it did then the subclass would be worth the malus.
• I went two hander but dual wield is just so much better for damage, speed, recovery and fists. It'd help getting multiple magic disruptions up as well.
• No scrolls is no big deal
• No potions is a problem with healing as you only have Second Wind.
• The 25% chance to resist friendly spells is a real pain in the ass. When you resist a heal or sanctuary you end up dead
• Normal Monk might be better as the deflection is low, much lower when raged and PotD enemies have really high accuracy so you get hit often and their defenses are high enough that reliably hitting is difficult. Factor in all your monk wound burners target Fortitude and there is a lot of whiffing.

Conclusions

• Once I get level 16 and get Brute Force (targets Fortitude with all attacks) and an upgraded Morningstar Willbreaker with the modal for -25 Fortitude body blows it should consistently have good accuracy and good crits which will cause weaken from Enervating Blows to further get more fortitude crits. Its a long time to get to level 16.
• Mage Slayer seems to be an awful lot of effort to try and get around its malus with little payoff. 
• Does make for a much harder game.

 

Will have to see if a few more levels and better gear makes the concept of body blow modal plus spamming fortitude based Torment's Reach or Skyward kick works out.

[kmbogd]

Ok, so as I was saying today, here are some examples of some weird numbers I was seeing in my tests:

 

1. First Example

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As can be seen from the base attack I have the following dmg bonuses: 0.36 from Might, 0.45 from Superb, 0.03 from Cruelty and Curious, 0.2 from One Stands Alone. There are other bonuses associated with the crit resolution that sum up to another 0.45 but I will not take that into account as both of my carnage attacks are hits (in fact only hit is possible as you will see in the second example). The weapon is a sword so its base dmg is [13-19].

 

There two ways I can think of the carnage formula in this case:

 

a) Carnage percentage is applied multiplicatively and we have: CarnageDmg= RolledDmg*0.333*(1+Sum_StepsExcludingCarnage)

 

This potentially generates a spectrum of values for carnage of [13-19]*0.333*(1+0.36+0.45+0.03+0.2)=[13-19]*0.333*2.04=[8.83-12.91]

 

While the first carnage attack (12.2) falls in this range, the second carnage attack (14.6) doesn't. Hence this is not the formula

 

b) Carnage percentage is applied additively like the other modifiers

 

In this case the step of carnage is 1-1/0.333=-2. The Step_SUM=-2+0.36+0.45+0.03+0.2=-0.96

Since the Step_SUM is negative, the range for carnage damage is [13-19]/(1-Step_SUM)=[13-19]/1.96=[6.63-9.69]

 

This is obviously even worse than the first formula as neither of my carnage attacks fall in this range.

 

2 Second Example

 

 

 

 

As can be seen from the base attack I have the following dmg bonuses: 0.36 from Might, 0.45 from Superb, 0.03 from Cruelty and Curious, 0.2 from One Stands Alone. The weapon is again a sword so its base dmg is [13-19]. Btw ignore the bug where Watcher's Blade has inherited the fire lash dmg from Modwyr (already reported). Also please note that the first carnage attack has an attack value of 144 but the hit resolution is just a hit, not a crit.

 

Again I'm passing through the calculation from before

 

a) Carnage percentage is applied multiplicatively

 

Calculation is identical, so the spectrum is the same: [8.83-12.91]

 

Again the first carnage attack (12.5) falls in this range, the second carnage attack (13.2) doesn't. Hence this is not the formula

 

b) Carnage percentage is applied additively like the other modifiers

 

Calculation is identical, so the spectrum is the same: [6.63-9.69]

 

Again neither of my carnage attacks fall in this range.

 

 

So, do you guys have an explanation to the above? I'm thinking of trying a weapon without lash to see if it changes anything.

Edited June 11, 2018 by kmbogd

[Climhazzard]

Does the mageslayer disruption only apply from weapon hits?  Or can stuff like carnage and rooting pain apply it?

[bigwillystyle]

So ... yeah.  Frenzy wrecks WIzard's Double immediately - the Frenzy raw damage kills the Double.  Welp, back to the drawing board with this one.  

[Lokithecat]

I recall someone talking about AI scripting, targeting Mages, will aim at basically anyone... 

 

Anyone try different classes in tavern fight club, to see what counts as 'spells'... 

I'd assume (pvp wise) that anything that follows the 'caster' logic of 2 Level 1 Spells, 2 Level 2 Spells, etc... instead of Resource pools (Guile / Zeal) would be suceptible to it. 

If it affects Resource style powers, then Corpsey might be worth using despite its clunkiness.

[Dr <3]

@lokithecat: spell disruption affect "spells" from wizards, druid, priest, chanter, chiper. Warrior, barb, pala & ranger are "immune" to this. Or at least so is stated in the description, i actually have not tested this properly.

 

@climhazzard/bigwillstyle: you need to hit with a melee weapon. Carnage doesn not apply spell disruption. Blunderbuss ( ranged attack) neither. The only way to apply it in an AOE is with things like hearth of fury/clear out or weapon like whispers of endless paths or the Wahai Pōraga.

 

@bigwillistyle: yo, nice to read you again too. I'm glad you liked my build. Still trying to "convert" the Anvil in poe2, but unless they let scale the battle forged dmg there is no way to do it atm.

 

When i started this thread i was wandering about how optimize a wizard slayer for a solo run.

You can't use potion nor scroll, so the biggest problem, in particular in early lvls are the healings. ( Also in a party this could be a problem, since you have at least 25% to resist them). I also wanted to use morning star modal + brute force, bit i'm reconsidering it since it is badically anti sinergic with spell disruption ( and also morning stars are not particularry powerful)

 

So the version i tried up to now are:

- pure wiz slayer: your only healing came from athletics and stalwart defence. Not enough. On the other sice on later lvls you have heart of fury.

- wiz slayer + fighter: good auto heals/ great dmg reduction with def stance + lot of engagements (barb howls + stand alone + ev helbard modal + other things) / great mobility thanks to eraly access to charge

- wiz slayer + kind wyfarer : actually the one i liking the most: + accuracy from sworn enemy, lot of full atracks with flames of devotion, wich heal you in the process, a very good healing on demand, zeal back on kills, higher defences overall. Only thing that i really hate is that commands can't target self, but you can't have everything.

[dunehunter]

Accuracy from Sworn enemy? And for a solo run what’s the meaning of engagement slot?

[grasida]

Ok, so as I was saying today, here are some examples of some weird numbers I was seeing in my tests:

 

1. First Example

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As can be seen from the base attack I have the following dmg bonuses: 0.36 from Might, 0.45 from Superb, 0.03 from Cruelty and Curious, 0.2 from One Stands Alone. There are other bonuses associated with the crit resolution that sum up to another 0.45 but I will not take that into account as both of my carnage attacks are hits (in fact only hit is possible as you will see in the second example). The weapon is a sword so its base dmg is [13-19].

 

There two ways I can think of the carnage formula in this case:

 

a) Carnage percentage is applied multiplicatively and we have: CarnageDmg= RolledDmg*0.333*(1+Sum_StepsExcludingCarnage)

 

This potentially generates a spectrum of values for carnage of [13-19]*0.333*(1+0.36+0.45+0.03+0.2)=[13-19]*0.333*2.04=[8.83-12.91]

 

While the first carnage attack (12.2) falls in this range, the second carnage attack (14.6) doesn't. Hence this is not the formula

 

b) Carnage percentage is applied additively like the other modifiers

 

In this case the step of carnage is 1-1/0.333=-2. The Step_SUM=-2+0.36+0.45+0.03+0.2=-0.96

Since the Step_SUM is negative, the range for carnage damage is [13-19]/(1-Step_SUM)=[13-19]/1.96=[6.63-9.69]

 

This is obviously even worse than the first formula as neither of my carnage attacks fall in this range.

 

2 Second Example

 

 

 

 

As can be seen from the base attack I have the following dmg bonuses: 0.36 from Might, 0.45 from Superb, 0.03 from Cruelty and Curious, 0.2 from One Stands Alone. The weapon is again a sword so its base dmg is [13-19]. Btw ignore the bug where Watcher's Blade has inherited the fire lash dmg from Modwyr (already reported). Also please note that the first carnage attack has an attack value of 144 but the hit resolution is just a hit, not a crit.

 

Again I'm passing through the calculation from before

 

a) Carnage percentage is applied multiplicatively

 

Calculation is identical, so the spectrum is the same: [8.83-12.91]

 

Again the first carnage attack (12.5) falls in this range, the second carnage attack (13.2) doesn't. Hence this is not the formula

 

b) Carnage percentage is applied additively like the other modifiers

 

Calculation is identical, so the spectrum is the same: [6.63-9.69]

 

Again neither of my carnage attacks fall in this range.

 

 

So, do you guys have an explanation to the above? I'm thinking of trying a weapon without lash to see if it changes anything.

 

I am not particularly among the mathematically inclined, but I wonder if carnage benefits from power level, and that's why you're seeing damage above what you should? There are a lot of ways to increase all power levels (nature godlike, the unique pike, stone of power, potions, etc). It might be worth while to jack up power level and see if carnage noticeably does more damage.

[Dr <3]

Accuracy from Sworn enemy? And for a solo run what’s the meaning of engagement slot?

5% of dmg reduction for every enemy engaged. With a long reach weapon you can even engage enemies in the "second row" around you ( very useflu if you are in a corner/door). Easy to rech 40% dg reduction. On top you can heave death runes from helm (15%), 10% from an amulet, 20% melee from a pollaxe after an attack and something more.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Dr <3

[kmbogd]

I am not particularly among the mathematically inclined, but I wonder if carnage benefits from power level, and that's why you're seeing damage above what you should? There are a lot of ways to increase all power levels (nature godlike, the unique pike, stone of power, potions, etc). It might be worth while to jack up power level and see if carnage noticeably does more damage.

 

 

Yes, seems like it, I've made a lvl 1 character with the same dmg modifiers as my lvl 20. The result is that carnage dmg with the same weapon is definitely different. I wonder how exactly does power lvl affect this ability, maybe the developers could provide more information in the description (like they do for sneak attack for instance).

Edited June 12, 2018 by kmbogd

[Porcelyn]

Can Barbarians fill the tank role? I'd like to use Konstaanten on my dwarf run but I am not sure if he will work as main tank.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

I am not particularly among the mathematically inclined, but I wonder if carnage benefits from power level, and that's why you're seeing damage above what you should? There are a lot of ways to increase all power levels (nature godlike, the unique pike, stone of power, potions, etc). It might be worth while to jack up power level and see if carnage noticeably does more damage.

 

Yes, seems like it, I've made a lvl 1 character with the same dmg modifiers as my lvl 20. The result is that carnage dmg with the same weapon is definitely different. I wonder how exactly does power lvl affect this ability, maybe the developers could provide more information in the description (like they do for sneak attack for instance).

 

They should, but atm it's not clear that Carnage does Raw damage instead of a weapon attack. Ideally almost every active and passive martial ability would benefit from higher PL and show the degree in the description, but right now that isn't the case.