Balance question/idea: reduce accuracy bonuses from enchantments?

[thelee]

In Deadfire, you get +4/8/12 accuracy for fine/exceptional/superb enchantment.

 

In PoE1, such a scaling made sense because you also got +4/8/12 deflection for fine/exceptional/superb shield enchants. Games like Pillars have always had a relative offense/defense symmetry (recall: a long sword +1 would be somewhat balanced out by someone wearing a leather armor +1).

 

In Deadfire, though, you only get +1/2/3 for fine/exceptional/superb shield enchants. This means offense is heavily favored.

 

Should this be the case, or should accuracy bonuses for enchantments get scaled down?

 

(Lest you think I'm calling for a nerf, keep in mind that enemies also benefit from this; they also get +4/8/12 for fine/exceptional/superb for weapons while your tanks only get +1/2/3 deflection for shields. It would just rebalance things in favor of defense.)

[Myztik]

I believe the shield enchants are being buffed to normal levels in the latest beta patch

[Kohwalter]

In beta 1.1 they changed to +2/+4/+6/+8.

However, it is still half from what you get from a weapon. Maybe they thought shield bonus were too powerful in the first game and decided to "balance" it on the second one.

 

Nevertheless, I think shield bonuses as +3/+6/+9/+12 should be ok when matching the weapons bonuses (+4/+8/+12/+16).

Another side effect would be more "reward" from using a shield instead of dual wielding.

[thelee]

In beta 1.1 they changed to +2/+4/+6/+8.

However, it is still half from what you get from a weapon. Maybe they thought shield bonus were too powerful in the first game and decided to "balance" it on the second one.

 

Nevertheless, I think shield bonuses as +3/+6/+9/+12 should be ok when matching the weapons bonuses (+4/+8/+12/+16).

Another side effect would be more "reward" from using a shield instead of dual wielding.

 

i didn't know that about the beta 1.1 deflection changes. that's good; it actually makes it more meaningful to enchant shields then.

 

i still think it is a bit odd that there's no longer a symmetry between weapon accuracy bonuses and shield deflection bonuses... maybe there are more secondary deflection boosting items than accuracy ones?

[Kohwalter]

From what I can remember:

 

Accuracy:

• at least two items that gives +Ranged Acc (+5 from hat and +8 from ring)
• Perception items
• Gloves of accuracy (+3)
• Weapon Enchantments
• +Acc vs Enemy_Type (Vessels)
• Spells
• Weapon Modals
• Paladin Auras
• Fighter Modals

Deflection:

• Ring that gives +2
• Cloak of Deflection (+4 and +7)
• Shield Enchantment
• Unique Shield that scales from a skill (forgot which one, but I think it was survival?)
• Resolve items
• Defense vs Spells (don't remember if they are for deflection as well or only fort/will/reflex)
• Spells
• Weapon Modals
• Talent (Improved Deflection - Saw on the fighter tree)
• Weapon and Shield Style (+6 using a shield): Maybe this is the reason for low enchantment bonuses since weapon profiencies no longer gives Acc

[thelee]

 

• Weapon and Shield Style (+6 using a shield): Maybe this is the reason for low enchantment bonuses since weapon profiencies no longer gives Acc

 

 

Yeah, that's a good point; weapon and shield style no longer has counterbalancing accuracy. It's still a bit "weird" to me, because this is a one-time bonus that surpasses any weapon enchantment at the time, but then steadily becomes outmatched in the late game.

 

I wonder if this is just intended in deadfire; as you go higher level both you and the enemy are just expected to hit/crit more and survival is weighted less on your deflection and more on your armor rating and health pool.

[Kohwalter]

But now you need to sacrifice a Talent point to get that boost to stay "competitive" while all the other talents for styles (Two-handed, Two-Weapons) actually gives a bonus (%recovery and %damage).

 

There is a mod in the nexus that modifies the shield bonuses, along with many other tweaks:

https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/72

[Braven]

Well, not everyone uses a shield and there are many things that can increase defenses besides the shield quality that you also gain when leveling.

 

I think they are more concerned about balance of shield vs no shield to make sure one or the other is not too powerful relative to each other.

 

One handed gives 12 accuracy and a small shield (legendary) now gives 12 deflection. Of course, one handed gives it at the very start of the game.... but you don’t get other unique enchantments like a shield. I think it is actually really reasonable to stay one handed early game and transition to a shield, or other weapon style, later on.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Braven

[Kohwalter]

Not using a shield either gives:

• +12 Acc (Single weapon)
• +45% Recovery Bonus (Two-Weapons)
• +15% Damage (Two-Handed weapon)

Meanwhile, using a shield gives:

• +8/+10/+12/+14 deflection (enchantment + S&B Style) vs +4/+8/+12/+16 base Acc from weapon enchantments plus the above benefits.

 

Can't see that as balanced as it is. You had to sacrifice a talent to try to stay competitive with the Acc from weapons. But if you don't use a shield, you also gain more bonuses from the other styles.

 

Lets face it, an offhand weapon is always better than a shield in Deadfire. Just use a Dagger and activate its modal for -Damage  and + Deflection

[Braven]

Not using a shield either gives:

• +12 Acc (Single weapon)
• +45% Recovery Bonus (Two-Weapons)
• +15% Damage (Two-Handed weapon)

Meanwhile, using a shield gives:

• +8/+10/+12/+14 deflection (enchantment + S&B Style) vs +4/+8/+12/+16 base Acc from weapon enchantments plus the above benefits.

Can't see that as balanced as it is. You had to sacrifice a talent to try to stay competitive with the Acc from weapons. But if you don't use a shield, you also gain more bonuses from the other styles.

 

Lets face it, an offhand weapon is always better than a shield in Deadfire. Just use a Dagger and activate its modal for -Damage and + Deflection

It is unfair to not include the base shield deflection in the comparison and sword and shield also gets that weapon quality accuracy bonus (you are still holding a weapon too), so that is not an advantage. Also, you are not considering the reflex bonus of shield-style.

 

There is also the bonus that large shield profiency has no real downside and that the medium shield modal power is very powerful; maybe the best of all modals. It is just a shame there is no good unique medium shields so it never sees use from me except in the early game.

 

Small Shield

4 base deflection

0-8 normal to legendary quality

6 shield style

= 10-18 deflection and reflex

 

Large shield

-8 accuracy

12 base deflection

0-8 normal to legandary

6 shield style

= 18-26 deflection and reflex

 

That is potentially 36 points in defenses for a small shield or a whopping 52 points in defenses for a large shield.

 

But comparing numbers alone is not actually that helpful. it really depends on your party role. If you are a slow, low damage tank, deflection is better since you will never do much damage anyway and will take many more hits than other party members. If you are a ranged DPS role, a shield is pretty much useless to you regardless of how much it deflects because nothing is ever in range to hit you.

 

Finally, regarding your comment on the dagger modal. That only increases deflection against -melee weapon- attacks. It doesn’t help against ranged attacks or reflex attacks so it is not really as good as a shield. There are a lot of ranged enemies in this game and it is still considered ranged even if you fight them in melee range.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Braven

[Kohwalter]

Actually, it is only +6 Reflex with the talent. Shield does not give reflex, neither their fine/exception/etc.. enchantments.

Also, I forgot that there is a talent for Single-Weapon that gives 20% Crit conversion.

 

Medium and Large Shields have an Acc penalty, so it is actually a trade and not a bonus/advantage.

The small shields you actually will lose 12 Acc for 4 Deflection (or 10 with the talent).

 

But lets use a small shield and no enchantments:

Shield vs Single: 10 deflection + 6 Reflex vs 12 ACC + 20% Crit

Shield vs Dual: 10 deflection + 6 Reflex vs 45% Recovery (lets not enter in the merit of the second weapon stats/modals)

Shield vs Two-Handed: 10 deflection + 6 Reflex vs 15% Damage

 

Disconsidering Dual-Wielding, it does appear to be balanced and Two-handed takes the shaft.

But the enchantments screw that balance:

 

18 Deflection + 6 Reflex (Small Shield + Talent + Enchantment) vs 16 Acc from enchantment + Style Bonuses.

 

So, you sacrificed a talent and the offhand to get a +2 Deflection and +6 Reflex (small).

 

Sure, if we look from the other side of the glass, you gained 18 Deflection and 6 reflex! However, the enemy gained a free +16 Accuracy and +60% Damage Bonus (Penetration is countered by the armor enchantment).

 

While in the begining it was +10 Deflection and +6 Reflex vs +0 Acc + style bonuses, in the end of the game this advantage was reduced to only +2 Deflection and +6 Reflex vs +0 Acc + style bonuses.

 

So, you "lost" the advantage of 8 deflection points at the end of the game.

[Braven]

Hmm, if shield style no longer gives reflex for the total shield deflection then that has changed from the first game and the tooltip is misleading. I will double check it, but I thought I remember seeing the total deflection of the shield applied to reflex on the character details screen.

 

I updated my earlier post showing that dagger deflection is inferior to shield deflection since it only applies to “melee weapons”. In other words, it is conditional and only helps against around half of enemies.

 

I also countered your argument about the “additional +16 accuracy”. Shield users also get that bonus too. Having more weapons doesn’t make that any better. The only advantage is higher attack speed.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I think duel-wielding is powerful, I just think you are short-changing shields. They certainly serve a purpose in the game.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Braven

[dunehunter]

+1 I also think sword shield style adds reflex based on your shield bonus plus additional 6.

[Kohwalter]

Hmmm...my bad. They did change that on the second game.

It indeed gives the total reflex.

 

So, in the beginning it is +10 Deflection + 10 Reflex.

Endgame: +2 deflection and + 18 Reflex.

[Braven]

Hmmm...my bad. They did change that on the second game.

It indeed gives the total reflex.

 

So, in the beginning it is +10 Deflection + 10 Reflex.

Endgame: +2 deflection and + 18 Reflex.

I think you meant the talent adds +6 deflection and +18 reflex at end game. Correct (for small shield). Large shield is even better if you consider +1 deflection and +1 reflex combined is better than +1 accuracy.

 

It is generally better to just use dagger and hachet in the very early game if you don’t plan to use the shield profiency modal since the base shield deflection alone is pretty pathetic without the talent.

 

However, 50% damage reduction against all ranged and reflex damage is no joke. Particularly since the must stand still condition is no penatly at all. You can just turn off the modal when you need to move. Deactivating a modal is instant and immediate. Weapon modals are usually really situational and more often better kept off than on so this is a big advantage of shields.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Braven

[thelee]

However, 50% damage reduction against all ranged and reflex damage is no joke. Particularly since the must stand still condition is no penatly at all. You can just turn off the modal when you need to move. Deactivating a modal is instant and immediate. Weapon modals are usually really situational and more often better kept off than on so this is a big advantage of shields.

 

you can also use escape [rogue or priest] ability to teleport around with it still on. not sure how serious a min-max strat it is, but when i was playing around with a high-deflection riposte build, it meant i was basically immortal but could still ambush enemies without having to worry about toggling a modal. (And i thought there was some brief delay with modal activation; when i activate a weapon modal it feels like it has to wait until my current recovery finishes)

 

still not totally sure how i feel about the acc vs deflection imbalance, at least based on enchantments. deadfire is in many ways a different beast than pillars, despite sharing a lot of similar mechanics. the shield proficiencies are a huge factor in this, which i had not accounted for in my OP (and i really do like the large shield proficiency; i just wish potd was hard enough that i could get a lot more mileage out of it and medium shield proficiency).

Edited June 7, 2018 by thelee

[Braven]

I have created a build completely immune to deflection based attacks and highly resistant to other types. Considering this, I don’t think accuracy is too high. Though, the true problem is that there are too many misc. ways to boost deflection and other defenses that is far more impactful than quality rating. If those were toned down, then I could see increasing it to match weapon quality.

 

Some of the shields have enchantments offering 10-20 bonus deflection on top of the quality rating. While some weapons might have equilivent unique enchantments boosting them further... the enemies are not actually using those relics locked away in some hidden dungeon vault.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Braven