Faction's of DEATH, AKA: Why do pirates have the moral high ground?

[Yonjuro]

 

 

 

Huana's caste system my be backward, but with invasion of so many foreign cultures they could have reformed it themselves one day following an example, not a forced whip. And saying any culture is inferior to another is just very condescending and conceited.

 

 

 Why do you say that? Surely you can invent two fictional cultures  one of which is inferior to another in any way you care to measure, yes? 

 

 Given two cultures, we could argue about the measurements and how to weight their combination - that part is subjective - but if we agree on what to measure, then there is an objective truth about how two cultures stack up w.r.t. a measurement.

I wouldn't say that one culture can be inferior to another, but one can definitely be preferable to another. You can't objectively start "ranking" cultures, but I doubt many would prefer living in the Huana culture over the Vailian or Rauataian one.

 

Also, cultures always change, evolve and disappear, though the hard core usually remains the same. Huana culture would probably change immensely if they're unified under Ukaizo and a single queen for the first time in millenia, and the Principi are only Vailian in name anymore, Furrante literally being "the last marcesco". Hell, in our history an argument during the confederate war was that the north was trying to destroy southern culture, and the romans considered slavery a key part of their culture.

 

Considering how deeply the caste system is ingrained in them, however, I don't see them stepping away from it unless an outside force provides opportunity to do so, as seen on Sayuka. It's also virtually impossible to stamp out a culture completely in that day and age, especially when willingly incorporating its people among your own: the Roman empire is an excellent example of how cultures got incorporated into the empire in various ways, often to the chagrin of so-called "Pure Romans". Meanwhile, the british empire never seriously attempted to make the indian "territories" british as they only needed to be profitable, which is arguably worse.

 

 

 

 I think we mostly agree. It sounds you object to the word "inferior," which I can understand.

[Aramintai]

The Huana caste system is certainly terrifyingly regressive and lacks anything even remotely resembling humanity, but that's just me, I guess, being condescending and conceited to a culture that arbitrarily sentences entire populations to exploitation and starvation.

Hey, I don't like them much either, but keep in mind that all cultures evolved by adapting to the environment. It is most likely that this caste system came into place for the Huana to survive after the cataclysm destroyed their old nation. So it is not beyond belief to imagine it can evolve again by being influenced by foreign factors. But I'm for gentle fusing approach, not for forceful militaristic approach.

[Casper]

 

The Huana caste system is certainly terrifyingly regressive and lacks anything even remotely resembling humanity, but that's just me, I guess, being condescending and conceited to a culture that arbitrarily sentences entire populations to exploitation and starvation.

Hey, I don't like them much either, but keep in mind that all cultures evolved by adapting to the environment. It is most likely that this caste system came into place for the Huana to survive after the cataclysm destroyed their old nation. So it is not beyond belief to imagine it can evolve again by being influenced by foreign factors. But I'm for gentle fusing approach, not for forceful militaristic approach.

 

my best guess is that the only internal means of changing the caste system is a revolt from a properly organized underclass... which might actually happen if you left them to starve. ---edit

unless they starve to quickly, and die out, or are put down before they're allowed to organize.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Casper

[Aramintai]

Also, the only way you avoid doing the Vailians' dirty work in the endgame is through an exploit, since you probably weren't considering to actually join forces with the RDC. It's well thought out, but not exactly a good reason to say the Vailians are better. (Though i apologize if my assumption here is incorrect)

None of them are better at that. But, personally, I'm allergic to pro-militaristic, "we'll bring you our democracy whether you want it or not" approach.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Aramintai

[Yonjuro]

 

The Huana caste system is certainly terrifyingly regressive and lacks anything even remotely resembling humanity, but that's just me, I guess, being condescending and conceited to a culture that arbitrarily sentences entire populations to exploitation and starvation.

Hey, I don't like them much either, but keep in mind that all cultures evolved by adapting to the environment. It is most likely that this caste system came into place for the Huana to survive after the cataclysm destroyed their old nation. So it is not beyond belief to imagine it can evolve again by being influenced by foreign factors. But I'm for gentle fusing approach, not for forceful militaristic approach.

 

 

 

 If the Rauitai weren't engaging in political assassination, would that make them the best faction for you?  I ask that question because they don't seem to be an oppressive regime for the most part. Certainly the Roparu will do better under the Rauitai. The ruling class will do better under the Huana in the short term, but might even do better under the Rauitai in the long term (other than the royal family who live like, well, royalty). 

[Taevyr]

 

 

 I think we mostly agree. It sounds you object to the word "inferior," which I can understand.

 

I'm an archaeology student, "inferior culture" is almost a trigger among my people . But i do think we're on the same page.

[Taevyr]

 

Also, the only way you avoid doing the Vailians' dirty work in the endgame is through an exploit, since you probably weren't considering to actually join forces with the RDC. It's well thought out, but not exactly a good reason to say the Vailians are better. (Though i apologize if my assumption here is incorrect)

None of them are better at that. But, personally, I'm allergic to pro-militaristic, "we'll bring you our democracy whether you want it or not" approach.

 

True enough, and if it was just for the animancy I'd probably pick Vailia as well. My main problem is with the company behind them grinding up souls and the reïncarnation system for profit, which I can't imagine myself supporting, no matter the benefits and research opportunities it brings. But I certainly can't fault your viewpoint.

[Aramintai]

 If the Rauitai weren't engaging in political assassination, would that make them the best faction for you?  I ask that question because they don't seem to be an oppressive regime for the most part. Certainly the Roparu will do better under the Rauitai. The ruling class will do better under the Huana in the short term, but might even do better under the Rauitai in the long term (other than the royal family who live like, well, royalty). 

 

My answer will still be no. I've explained why in earlier posts - they're pro-military, have no respect for foreign cultures, assimilate natives whether they want it or not, aggressively conquer lands.

[Yonjuro]

 

 If the Rauitai weren't engaging in political assassination, would that make them the best faction for you?  I ask that question because they don't seem to be an oppressive regime for the most part. Certainly the Roparu will do better under the Rauitai. The ruling class will do better under the Huana in the short term, but might even do better under the Rauitai in the long term (other than the royal family who live like, well, royalty). 

 

My answer will still be no. I've explained why in earlier posts - they're pro-military, have no respect for foreign cultures, assimilate natives whether they want it or not, aggressively conquer lands.

 

 

 Do you agree that the Roparu are better off under the Rauitai than the Huana?

[Aramintai]

True enough, and if it was just for the animancy I'd probably pick Vailia as well. My main problem is with the company behind them grinding up souls and the reïncarnation system for profit, which I can't imagine myself supporting, no matter the benefits and research opportunities it brings. But I certainly can't fault your viewpoint.

 

I'd rather live in an exciting world shaped by animancers innovations than under a boring bootheel of a Rauatai empire.

And all mistakes made by the Vailians concerning adra and animancy seem to stem from ignorance - they still don't understand a lot about them. I'd imagine learning that abusing souls for frivolities will spell potential doom on all the world will certainly reign in the most atrocious researches. But opening their eyes to the danger can only be gained through knowledge, which is why it is better that they have it from Ukaizo and Eothas inspiration.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Aramintai

[Casper]

 

True enough, and if it was just for the animancy I'd probably pick Vailia as well. My main problem is with the company behind them grinding up souls and the reïncarnation system for profit, which I can't imagine myself supporting, no matter the benefits and research opportunities it brings. But I certainly can't fault your viewpoint.

 

I'd rather live in an exciting world shaped by animancers innovations than under a boring bootheel of a Rauatai empire.

And all mistakes made the Vailians concerning adra and animancy seem stem from ignorance - they still don't understand a lot about them. I'd imagine learning that abusing souls for frivolities will spell potential doom on all the world will certainly reign in the most atrocious researches. But opening their eyes to the danger can only be gained through knowledge, which is why it is better that they have it from Ukaizo and Eothas inspiration.

 

unless you had eothas use his remaining strength to create a safe harbor for the displaced souls, until a more permanent solution can be found.

[Aramintai]

 Do you agree that the Roparu are better off under the Rauitai than the Huana?

I'd rather leave them alone and let them reform themselves, it seems inevitable anyway. And, btw, that bad situation in the Gullet can be perfectly solved by Huana themselves, if you convince the prince. Leaving the situation to be resolved by Rauataians only leads to them razing the whole district without solving any actual underlying problems.

[Aramintai]

unless you had eothas use his remaining strength to create a safe harbor for the displaced souls, until a more permanent solution can be found.

 

Kind, but not pragmatic. I think giving people an inspiration that leads to incredible rate of innovations and insight may actually bring that permanent solution way faster. I guess it all comes down to how you roleplay your Watcher. My Watcher is pro-Galawain/Magran/Abydon who believes in strength and strengthening of kith.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Aramintai

[Taevyr]

 

True enough, and if it was just for the animancy I'd probably pick Vailia as well. My main problem is with the company behind them grinding up souls and the reïncarnation system for profit, which I can't imagine myself supporting, no matter the benefits and research opportunities it brings. But I certainly can't fault your viewpoint.

I'd rather live in an exciting world shaped by animancers innovations than under a boring bootheel of a Rauatai empire.

And all mistakes made the Vailians concerning adra and animancy seem stem from ignorance - they still don't understand a lot about them. I'd imagine learning that abusing souls for frivolities will spell potential doom on all the world will certainly reign in the most atrocious researches. But opening their eyes to the danger can only be gained through knowledge, which is why it is better that they have it from Ukaizo and Eothas inspiration.

 

 

That's the thing: according to the wiki (https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Adra#Luminous_adra), several animancy researchers have already warned the Vailian trading company that there are several potential and certain dangers involving the mining and common use of luminous adra, yet it's too profitable to curtail the exploitation. It isn't the scientists being too driven or careless, it's caution being unprofitable.

[Casper]

 

unless you had eothas use his remaining strength to create a safe harbor for the displaced souls, until a more permanent solution can be found.

 

Kind, but not pragmatic. I think giving people an inspiration that leads to incredible rate of innovations and insight may actually bring that permanent solution way faster.

 

i don't really play an rpg as myself, kind of boring no? i play rpgs as my character would, so my benevolent character would likely go for the safe harbor, while a more rational one might go for the inspiration route. not sure how i'd handle that situation personally, but i honestly don't know what option is better, if there's such a thing as better in this context...

 

---edit

is it better to let thousands or hundreds of thousands of souls suffer just for the sake of restoring the cycle more quickly? suffering solely for expedience isn't really a good answer. 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Casper

[Aramintai]

i don't really play an rpg as myself, kind of boring no? i play rpgs as my character would, so my benevolent character would likely go for the safe harbor, while more a rational one might go for the inspiration route. not sure how i'd handle that situation personally, but i honestly don't know what option is better, if there's such a thing as better in this context...

True enough. And without having meta knowledge as to how things gonna work out in potential POE3 there is indeed no way of telling which faction or ending gonna turn out the best.

[Aramintai]

That's the thing: according to the wiki (https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Adra#Luminous_adra), several animancy researchers have already warned the Vailian trading company that there are several potential and certain dangers involving the mining and common use of luminous adra, yet it's too profitable to curtail the exploitation. It isn't the scientists being too driven or careless, it's caution being unprofitable.

Nothing the real world hasn't already experienced. Even the most profitable business can be shut down with enough facts brought by scientific research and political pressure. For example, it was very profitable to insert lead in gasoline, which had serious repercussions for human health and ocean's purity. But with enough scientific researches backed by politicians this type of gasoline is now banned:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead

 

It's not profitable if it kills you and all those around you, anybody can understand that.

[Aramintai]

is it better to let thousands or hundreds of thousands of souls suffer just for the sake of restoring the cycle more quickly? suffering solely for expedience isn't really a good answer. 

 

When all life on the planet depends on how quickly if at all the Wheel is fixed I'd say yeah, it's a small price to pay. But hey, it's just my opinion, I'm sure being kind and benevolent all the time will make your Watcher sleep better at night  My Watcher though is not afraid to make hard choices.

Btw, if you read attentively that inspiration headstart is not only for the kith but against the gods as well. In the dialogue with Eothas it is implied they too won't seat idly by as the broken Wheel threatens their existence as well. So Eothas can give kith a headstart to figure it out faster than the gods and in their favor. I'm not sure how the gods are planning to fix the Wheel, but after their giant ****-up in POE2 and shady selfish nature in general I don't think kith can trust them at all.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Aramintai

[Tarlonniel]

unless you had eothas use his remaining strength to create a safe harbor for the displaced souls, until a more permanent solution can be found.

I didn't understand this option. What displaced souls? I thought the game told us that souls were still going to pass into the Beyond, just like they always did. Is that not actually happening?

[Aramintai]

 

unless you had eothas use his remaining strength to create a safe harbor for the displaced souls, until a more permanent solution can be found.

I didn't understand this option. What displaced souls? I thought the game told us that souls were still going to pass into the Beyond, just like they always did. Is that not actually happening?

Iirc, there are souls stuck in the In-Between after he breaks the Wheel.

[Tarlonniel]

And those souls are somehow sucked out of the In-Between into him? How does that work? Couldn't Berath just do it him/herself?

Edited May 27, 2018 by Tarlonniel

[Aramintai]

And those souls are somehow sucked out of the In-Between into him? How does that work? Couldn't Berath just do it him/herself?

Just listen to it yourself:

https://youtu.be/miRfDt13UyI?t=1610

 

Basically, he doesn't help with fixing the Wheel, but provides temporary comfort for souls who are stuck in the In-Between until the Wheel is fixed. And Watchers won't be as bothered by ghosts floating around.

I'd rather take the "help fixing the Wheel" option, personally.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Aramintai

[Tarlonniel]

That doesn't really answer my question, though. I thought the process went like this: person dies, soul passes though pillar to Beyond, then goes to In-Between, then gets reincarnated. And I thought it was the "going to In-Between" part that got broken. Okay, so actually the In-Between to reincarnation part got broken too. But if Eothas can pull souls from the In-Between to Eora, surely Berath also has that power. And there's never been an indication - until now - that Watchers can see or contact souls in the In-Between, only ones that are Lost, i. e. wandering Eora trying to get back into the cycle.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Tarlonniel

[Aramintai]

That doesn't really answer my question, though. I thought the process went like this: person dies, soul passes though pillar to Beyond, then goes to In-Between, then gets reincarnated. And I thought it was the "going to In-Between" part that got broken. Okay, so actually the In-Between to reincarnation part got broken too. But if Eothas can pull souls from the In-Between to Eora, surely Berath has that power too. And there's never been an indication - until now - that Watchers can see or contact souls in the In-Between, only ones that are Lost, i. e. wandering Eora trying to get back into the cycle.

You got it backwards - the soul first goes to the In-Between, then the Beyond, then reincarnation. With Wheel broken souls get stuck in the In-Between, nothing goes to the Beyond to feed the gods or reincarnate, the world dies. The In-Between is a temporary place for souls before they go to the Beyond and it is there that Watchers peer into to talk to souls.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Aramintai

[Tarlonniel]

Ah, okay. Makes much more sense now.