Creston

Between the 78.000 views in this thread and the 22.000 views in the petition thread, I'm thinking Obsidian and LA are beginning to feel pretty embarassed that they didn't take the extra two months to keep this stuff in. Then again, the only thing LA is doing is counting those dollars. Scumbags. Creston

I haven't yet, and I'm about as Darkside male as they come in this walkthrough. Then again, I'm not quite at the end. Many many many thanks to all of you who are posting all this info here, are correlating it into a single page, are mixing the sound .wavs and are looking into Modding this back in. Your work is just fantastic. And it makes me hope LA and Obsidian are terribly, TERRIBLY ashamed of themselves for leaving some of their finest material on the editing floor. I seriously hope it makes them sick to even think about it. Creston

In fact, when George Lucas was originally asked about The Empire Strikes Back being very dark and gloomy ( way way back in 1981 or so), he specifically stated that that was his idea of how a trilogy should be. Part 1 - Introduce the characters, build up the conflict. Part 2 - The heroes get their butts kicked. Part 3 - Big comeback by the heroes, the heroes win, live happily ever after. If KOTOR is intended to be a star wars trilogy, there's not a lot of butt kicking going on against the heroes in Part 2... :| Creston

I honestly don't quite understand why people say that the possible dark side ending in which a few party members die would somehow restrict development on KOTOR3. Why do we need all the party members to come back to begin with? There is no Jolee, no Juhani, no Mission and no Zaalbar in KOTOR2. Why? Because they potentially died in KOTOR1. If you talk to Atton and state that Revan was a female, and went to Korriban to reunite the Sith, Carth never shows up in your current game of KOTOR2. What's the big deal with doing something similar for KOTOR3, where you just discard npcs that have potentially died in KOTOR2? They weren't all THAT interesting to begin with. The best NPC of the bunch (Kreia), dies anyways, so I'd shed not a single tear over Atton / Bao-Dur / GO-TO / Handmaiden / Visas / Disciple et al not coming back. Creston

No arguments there, however, I have yet to see a game that does difficulty the right way. In fact, the last game I can think of that did difficulty the way it SHOULD be done was Doom. (Well, and Serious Sam, I guess.) Ever game since then, the difficult part basically means Enemy Damage = Enemy Damage * 2 Player Damage = Player Damage * .5 Enemy HP = Enemy HP * 50 A slider that would actually make your opponents tougher based on their power, feats, equipment etc, would be awesome, but might be very tough to implement. However, a difficulty setting that simply increases the number of opponents you fight should be dirty easy to make, and yet no game ever seems to do it. Oh wait, NWN actually did something like it. Three whole games in the last decade. Wooohooo. :| Creston

While it is terribly offtopic, the whole "all women are treated badly, and men have everything so great, and this is true 100% of the time" scenario that's being brought forth here really makes my teeth itch. Women who wear short skirts and low tops and are raped, and are then told they deserved to be raped, or were asking to be assaulted etc. How is this different from, for example, a black teenager / young adult walking around in a brightly coloured outfit, and automatically is assumed to be a gangbanger? Or any man who wears a leather jacket is automatically assumed to be a Hell's Angel / rough guy, and you need to be careful with him, etc? I'm not in any way implying that I condone rape, or that a woman EVER, under ANY circumstance, should EVER be implied that she was asking for it (because I think rape is the second worst crime that could ever be inflicted), but stereotyping and "discrimination" (and I use the term loosely) based on how someone looks is not limited to women alone. As for other examples, tell me this. How many good looking women have gotten jobs over others, because they ARE good looking? Have gotten promotions because over others, because they ARE good looking? How many female waitresses get far higher tips than their male colleagues? How many men are arrested and put in jail at the single word of a female claiming that she has been raped, and it's a false accusation? How many men, here in the United States, will actually gain custody over their children after a divorce, even if the woman is a terrible mother, and the father would be a far better parent than she would (answer, very, very few). Stereotyping and gender discrimination works both ways. Men get raped too, and if you think it's hard for a woman to come out and report it, imagine what goes through a man's mind at the thought of having to go to a police station and reporting that he was raped (because I can practically guarantee that the man WILL be snickered at). In the same vein, there are quite a few men who are being physically abused by their wives, and who are terrified to report it, because it would make them appear to be a sissy and a wuss, etc. I'm not condoning any kind of female inequality, but at the same time, please don't try to make it seem as if it's ONLY females who are suffering from inequality. And for every example where women are treated worse than men, I can probably point out examples where they are treated better. Now, to get back on topic, I didn't really notice any "female gender discrimination" in the game. The Echani ritual was to fight without armor, but what the Handmaiden did was actually something that went beyond that. (You'll notice none of her five sisters would undress down to their skivvies to fight the Exile) I took it more as a crude flirtation on her part rather than hormone overdriven developers sitting there going "Huh huh, boobies!" As for Visas being the dependant, broken female, well, she was female, yes. I don't think she acted over the top the dependant female at any point. If you imagine that her entire world and her species were destroyed by Nihilus, and that he then enslaved her, and probably forced her to endure terrible torture at the hands of his power, I can see how she's a little mentally inbalanced. What bugged me far more about her character was that five minutes after I put her into the Ebon Hawk's sickbay, she basically states that she is willing to die for me, for who I am, etc. Her entire dialogue was very poorly written, and made no sense whatsoever. Kreia even told me that I should be careful about being her friend, and should at no point mate with her, and this was BEFORE I HAD EVER TALKED TO HER. You could see that as "she's a desperate, stereotypical female", but I saw it more as just broken dialogue. The dancing uniform was a bit over the top, but I kinda liked the nod towards Return of the Jedi. Actually, that whole part was a nice indication that Visas is NOT just your stereotypical "does as she is told" female. Have her in your party, and try to get her to wear the uniform and dance. Defense rests, your Honor. Creston

Actually, the regeneration of vitality is the BIGGEST flaw in the game, imo. While it's true it makes no difference in combat, it does lead to you always having full vitality (hp's) whenever you go into a new combat, which makes it terribly terribly easy. I played the game on difficult on my first walkthrough, and never once died. Ever. The only time I came close to dying was when I was playing with just Atton and Kreia on board of the spaceship in Nar Shaddaa, and all those droids were rocking me pretty badly. Even then I still managed to scrape out a victory. Other than that, it was all terribly easy. And I didn't even wait for my HPs to regenerate, but the regen rate is so fast that within a minute or so, you have full HPs again. I finished the game with over 200 medpacks / advanced medpacks and the red ones combined. I never used a single one of the red ones, and they were always in short supply in KotOR1. The implants vs Con was not a bad idea, although I would have appreciated being aware of it before I started my first game, as I gave my character 10 CON, and was thus never able to use even the smallest implant. As for the answers to the questions, good stuff, thanks for posting that and making us aware of it. It's still sad they had to cut so much stuff, though Creston

Well, Considering that Obsidian seems to be tagged to develop KOTOR3, and that they are also working on NWN2 AND BG3, they either must have grown tremendously, or I'm guessing that KOTOR3 is not going to be a Xmas 2005 release. Besides, KOTOR3 really needs to bring at least a new graphics engine to the genre. Also, more likely, LA will probably want to wait for the Xbox2, to take advantage of more power, and have a "Must Have" title for the new system as well. Xmas 2006 / Winter 2007 would be my guess. Creston

Not hard? I call BS -- unless you've actually got a logical way to delevel R and E that isn't incredibly lame. If so let's hear it. (Used to see ideas for that sort of thing in BG3 threads. They all sucked) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually, the ONLY way that game developers have ever come up with, AFAICR, is the oh so boring "you've lost your memories, and so also all your powers". Come on, playing as Revan and / or the Exile would be fun, but it would also mean that either we get the "Revan and Exile went through a black hole in the force, and lost all their power" crap, or the game simply states that everyone in KOTOR3 is at least level 25, and your characters are level 20. Which, I guess, might even be plausible, depending on just how powerful these True Sith are. (and I'm guessing not that much more powerful than current timeframe Jedi, after all, they did get extinct) Having Revan and the Exile in the game as advisors, teachers, leaders in the Great Big Upcoming War etc, would be far better from a storyline viewpoint. Creston

While I think the third KOTOR should resolve both Revan's and the Exile's story, you should play as a new character. Otherwise, are you going to start the game as level 20+ Jedi? Or are the devs going to pull the uber tired cliche "You lost all your powers and memories" crap again? If KOTOR3 is going to be the last in the series (or at least in this timeframe), and it will reveal what really happened to the true Sith, I would think that the character you will play will eventually become the Sith'ari and lead the Sith to glory come / salvation / ultimate freedom while also destroying them. Heh, good luck trying to write that. Creston

Removing the unused material would not have made people feel any better about the plain shoddy ending, though, although there would not be as big a clamor for restoring it, obviously. Actually, the fact that the unused material is still THERE mitigates matters somewhat for Obsidian, because we can all see that they had far better plans for the game than what eventually was released. Had they not put the stuff in there, we'd have all just said that their ending sucked, and that they were a mediocre developer. (which might explain why they left it in). I'm not looking for an admission of guilt. All I'm looking for is some information, and an acknowledgement of the worries that people are having with regards to a patch / the bugs that are in the game. Personally, I am lucky enough to have no technical bugs (apart from the game always loading in windowed mode, and my gamma going to hell upon exiting). But there are PLENTY of gameplay bugs in the game as well. Dialogue that leads nowhere, or loops. Other dialogue that happens way too quickly, or out of order. An entire section of swoop racing that's so bugged, you can't even win it. Etc. These SHOULD be fixed, but if they are not, at least have the courage to come to your own forum and tell people that. But hey, like I said, shrug, there are plenty of developers out there who will appreciate my 50 dollars for their next game. Creston

Ok, I enjoyed KOTOR2, but the ending is really just very poor. I've seen all the evidence for the much expanded endings, and I can even understand that it's LucasArt's fault that those extras were cut, leading to the ending being as poor as it was. (and don't get me started on all the dialogue bugs / quest bugs etc.) However, the fact that NO obsidian developer even seems to find two minutes of his/her time to post something about this on their OWN forum, while they are talking about KOTOR2 on a different forum, just leads me to believe that they have very little regard for the community and their paying fans. Obsidian is currently working on two more games, NWN2 and Baldur's Gate 3. If rumor is to be believed, they are even working on KOTOR3. All of these games are in the hands of publishers that are well known for releasing unfinished products. (Ie, Atari/Infogrames and LA) Knowing this, how many of you are going to be purchasing future Obsidian games? While the idea of a KOTOR3 fills me with joy, at the same time I don't think I'll be playing it if it's again done with the same engine, and will again be forced into the half finished product that KOTOR2 turned out to be. I understand that a publisher foots the bill, and has final say on what happens, but there actually ARE developers that will refuse to go along with such crap, that will refuse to let their good name be slandered by publishers who want to milk an extra two months of money out of their franchise. I think, Obsidian, that you need to take a good long look at what happened to Troika, and think hard about where you are going to be taking your next games. Great games plus shoddy execution (plus unfinished endings) eventually lead to you being forced to sell your furniture in an auction. I don't mean to be an ass about this, I just find it VERY distressing that ypu, Obsidian, refuse to even post a statement regarding concerns that people are having. A post that states "We're sorry about the ending, we were forced to speed things up by our publisher, and there will not be a patch, since said publisher will not pay for it," while not being what we want to hear, at least shows members of this community that you CARE about what they think of your product. All your silence shows us is that you don't give a crap. My 50 dollars are just 50 dollars, but the way things are now, you aren't getting them anymore. Creston Edit : Having said that, see the thread "petition to restore the ending". I will gladly pay you 20 dollars for fixing what was left out of this game.

You mean like they did by having Obsidian cut 80% of the ending out of the game? LucasArts has turned into a bunch of bleeping morons that are blinded by Star Wars dollars, and don't care how badly they rape the franchise as long as they can keep milking it. Creston

I quite enjoyed my watchman, but really, most of you are saying the watchman is crap because he gets no special feats for combat. And the description of the watchman shows that he is not a combat oriented individual All the skills were quite useful, and the sneak attack is very handy. Many times an opponent would walk away to reposition himself (if a group was attacking me), and would get a neat little list of 58,47,82,91 over him from the sneak attacks :D Creston

I'm glad all of you have taken the time to show what all was cut. The ending of KOTOR2 is VERY disappointing (even though I found the actual gameplay of the Ravager / Malachore 5 to be fine. I don't see why everyone is so upset about the fact that the academy "just throws tons of bad guys at you". So did the Star Forge in KOTOR1?), and made absolutely no sense. 1) Why still show Mira vs Hanharr? If you're cutting out ALL the stuff, then cut that out as well, and let me think everyone is just somehow stuck on the Ebon Hawk or something. The only reason I could think of for leaving it in there is to explain what Kreia did to Hanharr on Nar Shaddaa, but since there are tons of other things they never explain, leaving the Mira part in just seems senseless. (especially since it's just the same thing as the arena fight in Nar Shaddaa.) 2) The remote running around activating the shadow generator seems a bit useless as well, although it does sort of explain what happened to Malachore V to begin with. You can kinda put the pieces together through dialogue, but it's nice to see Bao-Dur explaining what happened to begin with. However, having that remote run around two levels where there are no more monsters is just completely lame and senseless. 3) It never gets explained what happens to your bond with Kreia. I've read the part where it states that one member falling to the dark side breaks the bond, but I find that a lacking explanation. Obviously because it's not IN the actual game to begin with, but even more so because Kreia doesn't FALL to the dark side anywhere, she IS firmly entrenches in the dark side throughout the game, just check all her dialogue. From the moment she begins talking to Atton she's abusing him and taunting him, and it doesn't take long for her to start blackmailing him. Everything I know about Star Wars and the Force makes it very clear that that = Dark Side. So if the bond is there with Kreia already being in the Dark Side, why does it vanish? 4) For that matter, what's Kreia's whole point for doing everything to begin with? Her explanation that she hates the manipulations of the Force, and that the Exile is beautiful to her because he is a wound / void in the Force was quite clever, but it fails to address certain issues : A) From all I can puzzle together, Nihilus is the exact same thing, a Wound in the Force. Why does she let Nihilus be killed when realistically he is a far greater threat to the Force than the Exile? (because Nihilus could have conceivably killed everyone and everything, thereby extinguishing the Force itself) Merely because the Exile once gave up his Force connection, and Nihilus would never do so? What difference does that make to her? B) If she hates the Force so much, why does she go back to using it, after it's been stripped away from her? C) How does her dying at the hands of the Exile at the end rhyme with her stated desire of seeing the Force die? While I understand that it's the Sith way that an apprentice must defeat their Master, Kreia clearly stipulates MANY times throughout the game that she is not a Sith, or at least that that is not what she believes. I fail to see how her death at the hands of the Exile advances her goal in any way, and is of benefit to herself in any way. 5) If Revan has gone beyond the Outer Rim, and only certain individuals, the ones who understand war like Revan and the Exile do, can follow Revan, why is it alluded that T3-M4 knows where Revan is? All in all, it's very disappointing. The thing that bugs me most, however, is the fact that an Obsidian designer is on the NWN2 board talking about KOTOR2, but they are quiet on their OWN KOTOR2 board, when there is a huge clamor for information and a patch. It's sad that such a good RPG gets LA's fist rammed up its... Well, you know what. Creston

Thanks Reveilled Creston

Thanks for the quick answers chaps, that makes me feel a lot better Creston

Bao Dur is supposed to make my lightsaber for me, right? (which is weird anyways, as Star Wars cannon is very adamant about how important it is for a Jedi to make his lightsaber himself, but anyways). He keeps telling me I still need a lens. When I look in my inventory, the lens is RIGHT THERE. I have all three items. Yet he won't make me a lightsaber. Is there any particular lens you need before he makes your saber? I've been to Telos and am now doing Nar Shaddaa, it's the only planet I've visited so far. Any help greatly appreciated! Creston

The dialogue sequencing in the game is very messed up. I have just met the blind sith girl (Nihilus' apprentice, Variss or something?), have just fought her while I was in Nar Shaddaa. I haven't even TALKED TO HER YET. Kreia tells me that I shouldn't mate with her. (Ehmm, yeah, okay, I tend to get freaky with women who just pulled a lightsaber on me and tried to slice me in half. It's more exciting that way...) Half an hour later, after the Red Circle invades your ship, and I've defeated them, Atton berates the Handmaiden for doing some form of mating duel with me, and then the Handmaiden and the blind Sith girl talk, and the Sith girl is talking about how she will follow me into death to protect me. HELLOO?? WE HAVEN'T EVEN TALKED YET... I'm beginning to wonder if we'll ever see this game the way it was intended. :| Creston

I keep asking Bao-Dur to make one for me, and he keeps telling me "No, you still need a Lens." I HAVE A LENS IN MY INVENTORY I completed Telos, and am currently in Nar Shaddaa. I haven't visited any of the other plants. Is there a reason why he's not making my lightsaber? Do you need very specific items for him to make a lightsaber, or will any of the three do? Argh this game is buggy... Creston

Athlon 1900XP, Radeon 9800 Pro. The game runs fine with both the Catalyst 4.11 and the Catalyst 5.2, although I think the 5.2 may be the culprit for causing the game to start in windowed mode all the time. Still, performance is smooth ( I run with 4xFSAA ), except for a few typical areas where the framerates go to hell (Fuel depot, for example) and it's not crashing so far. Now, as for all those bugs in the program... Patch please. Edit " I have the EXACT same issues, I had the gamma issue with both the 4.11 and with the 5.2, I'm not 100% certain if I had the windowed mode issue with the 4.11. The very first time I played the game, I didn't have that windowed mode thing, and that was with the 4.11. Every single time I've played since, I've had it, but I did upgrade to the 5.2 pretty soon after getting the game. Just not sure when I changed. Edit 2 : Just to be sure, I went back to the 4.11 and had the same windowed startup problem, and I got a CTD not five minutes into playing, so have gone back to 5.2. Creston

First off, when I launch the game, it always launches in some sort of semi window mode. It's actually full screen, but there's a window bar at the edges of the screen, which is annoying. You can't actually maximize or minimize this "window", it's just there. The only way to get rid of it is to change the screen resolution in the game itself, this resets the game to realising it's full screen. It's a minor quibble, but annoying that I have to do this every time I start up. (I've tried messing with the shortcut settings to run maximized, it's not helping). This is on an Athlon1900XP with a Radeon 9800 PRO, Catalyst 5.2. I had the same issue with the Catalyst 4.11. More annoying is the fact that swoop racing is so bugged it's not even funny. 1) If you forfeit a single race once, the race master will forever more tell you that you need to finish the race in order for it to count. Even if you finish every race after that, he won't accept them. 2) I beat the best time by about 2 seconds, only to have the racemaster inform me that I ran a "decent race", but not good enough to beat ANY of the track records. HELLO??? The worst time on that record was like twenty seconds slower than mine. " 3) If you then go to talk to him, he calls you track champion. However, there is never a reward for winning. Great. Swoop Racing was always my main source of income in KotOR 1. Now apparently it's all without reward? Bugs like these should NOT get through playtesting. They just shouldn't. PLEASE fix this. The KotOR series deserves better than to languish in such a bugridden state. Creston