Cantousent

The folks who, from what I've heard of their backgrounds and history, live in relative comfort want a civil war? Fools. I normally don't get very angry with folks concerning politics, but I lose all patience when people talk about the need for a civil war. Go ahead. You think you lost the election?? I tell you what, you'll lose a lot more if your prophesy of sedition comes to pass. ...And the United States will still exist. I don't want to have to take up arms in defense of my country. I don't want to fight folks who, in a misguided frenzy, decide that a democracy is only a democracy when the people vote their way. I've heard this prayer of rebellion from quite a few people. Say all you want. Pray to whomever you wish. Plot all you can, out in the open, with the knowledge that you can talk all sorts of foolishness without any real risk to yourself. ...But know this, if I have to return to military service and kill folks who threaten my democracy and liberty, I will. I won't be alone. You know, I remember Ms. Kerry talking about four more years of "hell." Hell? Is that what you people think the last four years have been for us here in the United States? You sit at a computer preaching sedition without even a notion of what Hell is. You talk about the latest computer game and music and television... it's not a question that you're a fool, only how much of a fool you are. I have no doubt you won't take up arms against our country. I hope not. As angry as this ridiculous rebellion talk makes me, I wouldn't want any of you to come to harm.

I see what you're saying, Vincent, but if you DID pay taxes, it wouldn't be taxes anyhow. It would be charity. I mean, would you pay taxes if Kerry had won?

It is an internet forum and it probably doesn't do any good to get all worked up. On the other hand, it is a simple fact of life in this or any democracy that you are bound to the common will of the people. This talk is almost exactly word for word what I used to hear about President Clinton. Nuts! ...But, at the end of the day, it's the pleasure of the loser to complain about the fortunes of the winner. I'll have plenty of opportunity to complain in the years to come, I'm sure. If you can get out of paying taxes, Vincent, I wish you all of the best. It's not so bad, you know. It's only four more years and then anything is possible. As much as folks talk about Armageddon, I'm betting the country will still be here in four more years. I'm just not betting on who will win the Presidential election.

If the world and the Democrats keep insulting the intelligence of folks living in the "red" states, then we'll undoubtedly see another Republican victory during the mid-term elections. *shrug* I live in California and I tend to think that there are a variety of factors that skew this particular state by state assessment of IQ. Actually, what I find genuinely light-hearted is that many of the progressives I know attack the very idea of IQ tests and how they're adminstered.

That's okay, Product, I read it anyhow. :D I waited for it with relish. Anyhow, late night. Talking politics is an exhausting business.

You know, what good does it do to rail on against religion? Folks who revile religion and make rather strong claims against religious people don't help progressives or Democrats win elections. It's simply true that Americans are generally religious. *shrug* That might be more important than policy, but I fail to see how. You want a progressive agenda? Fine. I'm a Catholic. I practice my religion. I express my faith when the discussion warrants such disclosure, but I don't tend to bring up the topic of religion nor do I respond with anger to an expression of disbelief or, even more dangerous to religion, a complete lack of interest. Now, of course, we have what I see as a dogged attack on religion by folks who are angry with Bush's victory. The evil, they say, is the all powerful religious right. Mostly, I've not responded to this discussion because I think folks who've followed their candidate throughout the campaign only to see him lose deserve a chance to vent their frustration. Still, while the religious right might have tipped the balance, the issue is a little more complex. First of all, you don't have to appreciate* religion to understand that the population in the United States is religious. If you make this issue atheism versus religion, you will lose. If that's the main (or only) issue for you, then I applaud your determination, but get used to defeat. Second of all, if you want to win on the policy decisions, then you must not alienate religious folks. As a general rule, I'm leery of calling folks uneducated. The accusation flies around this board like a flock of birds. It's not a matter of wondering if the charge will be leveled. It's a matter of when. Hell, it's a matter of how soon. I am an educated adult. This is a simple reality. I am well read. I have contemplated the issues. I believe in God. If that offends you, there is nothing I can do. ...But the fact that I'm religious need not be an obstacle to our cooperation on issues of policy. If you like losing elections, then I suggest you keep insulting my intelligence and education. That leads me to my third point... I attend church more regularly than many folks who would probably be termed "religious right." If that makes me "religious right," then consider this: I voted against the measure banning same sex marriages in California when it came up for vote a few years back. What does that mean? It means that general statements are useful to describe a general condition. Conversely, believing in a generality when faced with a complex problem will not help your position. If the Democrats answer their loss by bashing religion and religious people, they will have plenty of opportunity to lose even more elections in the future. Now, I'm going to address the general idea of conspiracies... let it go. Unless you have some real, substantial, and substantiated proof, you don't have a point. Some of the charges of conspiracy are no less a matter of blind faith than the hateful faith of the religious right. Real conspiracies are undoubtedly hidden in the midst of theories that only serve to muddy the waters. I don't mind wild conspiracy theories. I think of them as a little wacky. I think they're funny. I think the folks who propose these conspiracies are generally decent but misguided. Overall, I think these theories are harmless. ...But they aren't. These conspiracy theories kill Democrats. Democrats have left mainstream America to join in the orgiastic glut of fringe movements. ...And consider this as your angry fingers dance over the keyboard: my words aren't particularly harsh. You don't have to agree with what I say, but you can't preach tolerance while attacking even the most respectfully worded voice of dissent. On the other hand, I appreciate a particularly funny or clever attack, even if I'm the target. *You should appreciate it in terms of understanding it and looking at it critically without engaging in dismissive or angry comments. I don

*shrug* The pleasant sight of mob rule. Sure, after all, our democracy isn't nearly so important as seeing "Bush go down," right? Our democracy can survive a bad president much better than it can survive the lawyers. Anyhow, from my perspective, this thread has achieved car crash status. From your perspective... well, you guys deserve a chance to vent and I should be nice enough to let you do so.

In every election, whether my personal candidate pulled through or not, I always accepted the vote. I understand it's late. I know what it's like to stay up into the early morning hoping for your candidate to win only to see that he loses. So, while this is an undoubtedly rough statement, I am not without empathy... If this isn't your country, leave. I mean that. We live in a democracy. You don't win every vote. You might spend years in the minority. You might have your intelligence, education, or motives challenged at every step. I have endured such treatment. I was, and shall remain unto my death, an American. So you lost an election... so what? Did you vote? Did you voice your will? Did you perform your patriotic duty? I don't mean flying a ridiculous flag that you let the weather and sun destroy. I mean standing up for that which you believe. You will undoubtedly have your day. I hope we all have our day. ...But your characterizations are the exact misstatement and hyperbole I cited in my earlier post. Finally, does anyone here believe that President Bush would be in a position where he apparently won the election if his opponent were competent?

I'll trust my vote before I'll trust either of yours... although I refuse to hate folks with whom I otherwise enjoy a friendly relationship. I mean, I remember someone trying to convince me that Bush would lead us to World War 3 before the end of his first term. Same person is voting for Kerry. This is the enlightened person to whom I should concede my vote? nuts!

haha taks. I like it. This new electronic thing is cool, but it's odd not having to use my sample ballot to make my votes.

I voted this morning. They say my vote doesn't count in California, but I rather disagree. First of all, my vote is my voice and I am not only entitled to use it but obliged as well. Second of all, there are state, county, and local issues to resolve. As important as the commander-in-chief is, we can't forget other measures and positions to decide. As for everyone in the United States voting... why should I want everyone to vote any more than I'd like everyone to understand the issues? Voting is good only when it's an educated vote based on a reasonable understanding of the choices at hand. Too much emphasis is placed on voting. I'd rather folks who haven't taken the time to contemplate the issues didn't vote at all. For folks who have studied the issues, there is ample room for disagreement. It's not that a reasonable deliberation will lead every American to the same vote. Vote for Kerry or Bush (or any other candidate), but don't vote based on the hyperbole of the opposing party or unsubstantiated claims made by any person or group of people.

I went to see my wife's family. I saw my little niece (my wife's niece, really, but the baby loves me as if I were her real uncle) and went trick or treating with her for a bit. I had some Latin work to do, which I managed to get done while folks were visiting. It was quite a pleasant evening.

Frankly, if we're to be frank, I don't like approaching anti-religious arguments from a didactic position. I find it odd when someone takes it upon himself to do so. Religion as a set of moral guidelines, or to provide an overarching worldview, is not a bad thing. I fail to see why a few internet geeks should dissuade me from my particular beliefs. In fact, I don't see one person's moral intrusiveness any different than another. One religious person says that you're going to hell if you don't hold to his belief (something that I didn't say... and I assure you I am, indeed, religious) and suddenly it's okay to make a broad and sweeping statement about my intolerance. What nonsense. I'm willing to take your lack of belief at face value. I don't think it says anything about you other than you don't hold to a set of religious beliefs. I don't believe it makes you evil or that you are bound for hell as a result. Whatever else the bible says, I take to heart one simple lesson... that the Lord is my judge, not that I am yours. As far as the whole soap thing *shrug* It's not my sort of argument, but I appreciate Craftman's enthusiasm. At any rate, for folks who hate religion, you might as well get used to having it around. It's going to be around for a long, long time. Probably forever.

Wow. That is impressive. The most I've done for Halloween is take a chain mace into work. I'd probably be arrested for doing that these days.

It's a cap, no doubt.

good luck killing it.

Less than a week left to argue about whom we should vote into office. Then it will be an argument about which chads didn't fall properly.

Every view should not be tolerated. If a religion advocates human sacrifice or encourages sexual acts with children, then it deserves scorn. It is important, nevertheless, to accept the fact that folks have a right to a belief, even if you look down on them for the belief. Personally, I draw the line at the destructiveness of the religion. Clearly, Wicca has views I find strange, but I tolerate (hell, even accept) it. Why not? The Wiccans I've known have really been decent sorts. They wear a pentagram and I wear a cross. *shrug* (actually, I don't wear any jewelry, but I guess I would wear a cross if I did.) Now, I'm a Catholic. Really... a churchgoing, God fearing Catholic. Still, that doesn't mean I cannot tolerate, say, a Wiccan or anyone from another religion. Will I tolerate someone whose religion dictates murder, theft, or mayhem? Of course not. I should not and, indeed, cannot tolerate these beliefs. Of equal course, murder, theft, or mayhem are intolerable on grounds other than religious.

I'm Christian and I don't argue that you're bound for eternal torture. I merely believe that your presence can sometimes be torturous. That's okay, as a Christian, I'm bound to forgive you... repeatedly... until I finally snap and run you over with a bulldozer or some such. Then we'll both be happy! You can tell me you always knew my Christianity was bunk. I'll be happy because those will be your last words before you go to the great beyond. The real beneficiary, however, will be the message board, which will celebrate the mass of Eldar every year on the occassion of your demise. Of course, in contrary fashion that is common to all humanity, there will be some who celebrate Hades One day as the death of a martyr. In the meantime, one year hence, President Bush will have to answer the question, "should the United States apologize for the tragic bulldozing of Hades One?" I, for one, hope he answers, "NO!" *** I would never even think of bulldozing or otherwise physically harming my friend Hades One in real life.

We only know what we can perceive. Since our perception tells us all things are fleeting, then it is inevitible that humanity will some day perish. Does that matter? The nihilists will say that it doesn't make any difference anyhow... that we're only individuals and that anything we leave behind has nothing to do with us after we're dead. This is undoubtedly true in the strictest sense. I have a different belief, however. There are two possibilities after we die: either we simply cease to exist or we exist in some other fashion. To those who argue most strenuously that death is the end and that it's foolish to suggest otherwise, I will simply smile and nod. I don't begrudge them their belief. I tire of the notion that belief is somehow equivalent to ignorance, but I'm not going to pick that fight. I look far less ignorant in being willing to accept that there is an opposing view anyhow. On the other hand, acting and living within the confines of my personal code, which carries with it the conviction of eternal life, does no harm to others around me. I cannot answer for what others are willing to do under the pretext of religion. I can only answer for myself and what I argue are the genuine tenets of my faith. With all that stated up front, I seem to be a pretty popular fellow. Indeed, if I'm to judge by my friends (a truly eclectic bunch of folks comprised of a wide array from staunch atheists to devout fundamentalist Christians) then I can only assume that my religion hasn't hurt my interpersonal skills in the least. In that case, I suggest that our belief or lack thereof doesn't make us incompatible. In other words, if we simply die or if we transcend, we can still live honorably and well on Earth. So, to the original question... I'm sure humanity will die, but it doesn't matter. Humanity is not likely to perish during our lifetimes and, atheist or Christian, its ultimate demise is far less important than the here and now. *** I'd like to note that I don't speak as anything other than a Christian and a Catholic. There are a variety of religious (or at least spiritualist) beliefs concerning an afterlife. I merely use the term transcend as a convenient way to wrap disparate beliefs into one package. Since we're a bunch of geeks talking on a message board, I figure I can be forgiven trying to keep the argument simple.

I shake my head in wonder... Gromnir must be right. There's no arguing against this. In fact, the irony isn't that Servant calls out for divine aid... rather that he uses one of the hated mainstream media to support his position. Actually, I'm rather unsure about his position. Okay, well, it's tempting to stare at the car crash, but it slows down the traffic. I'm sure you guys can continue to convince folks that we'll end up in a civil war if Bush is re-elected. Please, make a movie about it and torture half-truths into outright untruths. It should give Bush another batch of votes. *shrug*

You're all right! The government, particularly under George Bush, has oppressed me! I have no rights. I can't even complain about the government or speak out against it in any way without being abducted in the middle of the night! I've been abducted, tortured, and summarily executed several times! OMG, how am I even here? Remember, big brother is watching you! Down with the gnomes of Zurich! ...Wait... I hear someone coming... please hel.....

Accounts such as these don't hurt President Bush. In fact, my gut instinct is that most folks find them so outrageous that the very accusation helps the President. If you're counting on these "sources" to carry the day, then you're already lost. Come on, Product, you know the election has already been decided by the gnomes of Zurich! Why waste your breath? Just go out and buy some Nikes and a six pack of Coke and maybe some American cigarettes and join those whom you cannot beat.

I'm voting for Bush.