Gromnir

*sigh* ok, we didn't think this were necessary, but following the release o' bg2, EVERY game bio has released has been described as "epic" by bio and publishers and game magazines. and some groups o' fans has complained 'bout the use o' "epic" each and every time it has shown up on websites or in print. tedium. epic refers to a specific kinda long, narrative poem. it may also refer to any work, fiction or otherwise, that elicits comparison to epic poems. additionally, epic may refer to size... really big = epic. *shrug* finally, epic may refer to scope... heroic. grandeur o' scope. heroic characters, acting heroically on a heroic scale. now, say what you will 'bout the quality, length or included poetry o' bio games, but there ain't no viable argument that biowarian games is other than steeped and stinkin' with heroism-- heroic characters, with heroic qualities, acting heroic as they saves the nation/world/galaxy. is it silly how frequent the biowarians and publishers utilize epic? yeah, but is clear accurate. be warned, for beyond this place, there be heroes. HA! Good Fun!

It's not only BioWare. The word 'epic' is overused in the game industry as a whole. By companies and media. Everything is epic nowadays. "epic" is soooooo early 2000's. didn't we move on to "awesome"? course, Gromnir is hardly conversant in contemporary kewl--saw a group o' kids wearing rosaries the other day, and we had to have it explained to us that catholic prayer beads is now a popular fashion accessory. regardless, am not sure that any rational person takes puffery serious. is just meaningless salesman spiel. HA! Good Fun!

am not certain if we agree or disagree. is nothing wrong with understanding and accommodating player trends. what is wrong with attempting to makes a game that people will actually play and enjoy? the problem we see is the manner in which bio interprets their data. 1) data mine reveals that many players quit after 1 hour . 2) the biowarians sees data and comes to conclusion that players is daunted by the crpg learning curve. 3) biowarians solve perceived problem by making a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a a successful combat tactic. is nothing wrong in 1... is 2 and 3 that is wacky. getting accurate feedback is useful and legit, but the feedback bio gets is mindless data that they has chosen to interpret a certain way... and the manner in which they choose to fix perceived problems is direct, but crude. is not the data mine. is the biowarians. HA! Good Fun! ps am gonna once again note that bio is partial correct in their guess that peoples is daunted by the crpg learning curve, but the a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a fix is not direct linked to data mine. data mine does not prevent original and absorbing, but Bioware interpretation of data mine may kill hope o' original.

Gromnir, old pal, I'm kind of surprised to see this from you. At your worst (best?) you resemble a chapter of Ulysses. *chuckle* fair enough. nevertheless, we do appreciate simple and elegant pleasures. as noted already, complexity got no inherent value. there is goals that one may not be able to achieve w/o complexity. even so, it is the goal that is admirable and not the ineffable solution. which is the superior character: a multi-dimensional characters with depth and breadth developed through dense literary allusion and rhetorical device such that only folks with a masters degree in literature will comprehend more than a fraction, or a similar multi-dimensional character with with Equal depth and breadth developed so that the bottom feeders frequenting game development boards may enjoy? is not the complexity that makes superior, but is hardest for the moderate educated to recognize that fact. HA! Good Fun!

no. complexity has no inherent value. there is, sadly, a level o' education and experience that blinds an individual to the appreciation o' simplicity. as we has grown older and more experienced, we has gained greater appreciation for the elegance that accompanies enlightened simplicity. chess and go, as examples, is not terribly complex games. mastery o' such simple games can takes a lifetime o' dedication. produce endless wonder and challenge. is perhaps ironic that the genuine educated man and the child may takes joy from simplicity that eludes the apprentice or journeyman scholar. *shrug* is a matter o' opinion and taste, but am gonna suggest that derision o' simplicity is the result o' hubris born o' ignorance... lack o' experience and education. HA! Good Fun!

2) the defined, voiced PC and the "general tone"-based dialogue choices allow the player to just react rather than read and reflect on choices am hopeful that the demo is misleading. the early reviews almost unanimous speak o' stellar writing, but the demo evidenced dreck. ... am somewhat suspecting that biowarian reputation for writing is camouflaging and that the reviewers is just assuming that 'cause this is a biowarian game the writing must be compelling, 'cause what we saw were as campy-bad and trite as anything we has ever seen from bio. not even have to read bio dialogue choices no more as we choose either halo & wings, angry hammer, or comic response. MEE (mass effect effect) rears its ugly head... but actual goes a step further than commander shep dialogue options in making over-the-top and obvious. *shudder* even so, the demo writing is the one aspect we is willing to give the biowarians a free pass. the writing sample from the da2 demo is far too small to make a legit judgment, and so we hold out hope. HA! Good Fun!

eh? why? oh, 'cause o' the old saw 'bout ignorance o' the law is no defense, right? HA! sorry, but we didn't vote for the biowarians, and the box check a'int analogous to a law... and nobody would try to makes the analogy save all but the most deluded and ignorant o' fanbois. yutz. in any event, am thinking that the problem with bio and their datamining is that the biowarians can be just as stoopid as vol. for instance, one can look at the fact that people stopped after a single hour and justifiably come to a different conclusion 'bout why players quit. example of a possible alternative explanation: folks stopped after an hour 'cause the rinse-and-repeat endless cycle o' combats became soul-numbing boring...fast. see. however, we does think that the biowarians is right that the learning curve for traditional crpgs can be daunting, but how they end up with da2 as a result is baffling. the skills trees still looks complex to a crpg neophyte, no? so, we call bs. is not that bio has made the crpg introduction less complex... they has made meaningless. mashing a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a is apparent enough to successfully overcome combats. biowarian claimed solution does not match their espoused goal. 'stead o' genuine simplifying da complex rules, bio has gone ahead and made the rules pointless. and with the expected MEE (mass effect effect) player development choices will become increasingly meaningless as one progresses in the game. am betting that by the end o' the game, our dw rogue is gonna look near identical to bob's or phil's, or peete's dw rogue... and even if our stats and abilities is slight different, it won't matter 'cause the gameplay will be identical. if making the learning curve less daunting is the goal, then we cringe at biowarian solution. datamining don't mean squat if the biowarians misinterpret the data, or if their solutions to perceived problems is bassackwards. HA! Good Fun!

actually, "to be fair," is a small box to be checked (not a shiny button) on the online tab o' the options menu if you wish to share data... and the box is checked as a default. naughty-naughty. lord knows we never knew the box were there until it were pointed out to us some number o' months after playing. am guessing that Gromnir were not the only person who failed to read all the options menu boxes. we looks for specific video, audio, and gameplay options rather than double-checking all such. HA! Good Fun!

I'd think that the people with a "different" taste would make double sure that their data gets to Bioware. Certainly, if you keep your data away from Bioware, what right do you have to complain about them no longer designing the kind of game you'd like to play? am agreeing with nep... but at the same time we can very much understand a different perspective. datamining, particularly w/o informing us that we is gonna have our data mined, feels more than a little intrusive. if bio were to ask us if they coulds monitor our da:o or da2 gameplay so as to get a better notion o' actual player behavior, am betting we would volunteer. find out after the fact that bio had been digging through our digital dirty laundry is... different. 'course, knowing you is being observed changes behavior and taints results. regardless, Gromnir can see reasons for being reluctant to share with bio, particularly in light o' the fact that they didn't do us the courtesy o' asking for permissions. is... rude. HA! Good Fun!

I'd say that a story-driven game benefits from clear obstacles to overcome and a strong personification of those obstacles. This doesn't have to be in the form of a villain. *sigh* as da2 is a crpg, the protagonist need necessarily be ill-defined. 'cause the protagonist gotta be functionally playable for potentially millions o' different people, the writers cannot develop the main character with the kinda detail one would expect from a novel's protagonist... or even the protagonist from a short story, movie, comic book or whatever. additionally, a crpg story is built 'round some sorta gameplay, which is 'posed to be visceral and engaging, but chopping up darkspawn into little darkspawn chunks is not gonna be creating particularly compelling story elements, is it? yeah, gameplay does, and should add to story development, but is always gonna be tough to create the necessary emotion outta squad-based tactical combat encounters. so, since the traditional main character is gonna be relative vague, from whence does the writer build his story? should be obvious that you gotta create emotional investment and if our vague hero is overcoming an ill-defined conflict, you has little chance to make the necessary emotional link for a compelling story to develop. am genuine surprised that the biowarians made same mistake in yet another game. HA! Good Fun!

Really? Guess I never spec'd Leliana right. I always found Zev as a duelist more useful then Leliana as an archer. Will have to roll an Archer next time I play DA:O. Archers in DA:O are rather badly designed. Most of their talent are completely useless, but Scattershot is rather overpowered. In Awakening, the same trend continues, expect the talent Accuracy now gets archers God Mode. Attack and DPS 1.5 to 2 times that of a melee DPS Warrior, with >75% crit chance? Right-o. There's a good article on how to build effective archers using their passive abilities on the DA wiki: http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Archery:_A...icient_Approach archery is poorly designed and balanced in da:o. at low and mid levels, a dedicated archer is a liability to your party offering little in the way o' offensive or defensive support. at high levels a da archer is boss-killer that doles out ridiculous 'mounts o' damage. what? was hoping that bio would take the opportunity to fix the archery skills in da2. based on what we has seen from the demo, the biowarians fixed archery so that it is no longer overpowered only at high levels... archery is now wacky powered at ALL levels. congrats to bio. HA! Good Fun!

two quick observations... 1) we didn't see any examples o' writing duplicity in the da2 demo. 2) the developers has made such claims in the past, and been wrong. whether they were intentional fibbing or not is up to you to decide. *shrug* bio has simplified and streamlined many aspects o' their games. self-identified hardcore fans has been less than welcoming o' such changes as they see such simplification as dumbing-down a medium that ain't all that complex in the first place. is bioware writers so clumsy that they need the dialogue wheel to make intent apparent? is the Average Gamer so unlettered as to require dialogue wheel guidance to navigate successfully through dialogues? however, we will note where bioware writing becomes less engaging, the dialogue wheel makes easier for us to skip through sections o' the game w/o actually missing anything. two word emote, then skip through the vo. oddly, maria contrasted with paragon v. renegade, but the demo so far were more polarized than any previous game we has seen so far. no need to even read the dialog choices as they is all coded with halo, anvil or comedy tags. yippie. bio: simplifying and streamlining crpgs since 2003. HA! Good Fun!

Definitely. OTOH I don't think there was a command queue in BG1-2 either, but I could be misremembering. It's been a couple of years... Also, the PS3 version of the DA2 demo downloaded while I was typing this message. Love Sony servers, speediest 1,7 gigs of my life. ;D why bring up bg? we specific compared the console controls o' the da2 demo to kotor, so it weren't Gromnir that tried to bring bg into the discussion. the reasons we initially gave for comparing kotor and da2 were that combat felt similar 'cause camera were so tight and 'cause the player weren't really necessary to succeed in combat. mindless button mashing in the da2 demo did not slow down Gromnir one bit. in our ps we observed that with the combat queue, kotor actually had Console Controls that were more intuitive than functional than da2. bg? not really relevant. however, since you did raise the decade old spectre o' bg, we will confess that we is happy to see that bio did not regress to old infinity engine options for their warrior class. once combat started in the ie games, tactical considerations for fighter-type combatants was limited to proper positioning. attack. attack. attack. attack. attack. maybe switch between range and melee were the big tactical consideration? *shrug* peoples scoff at d&d 4e (and Gromnir is one such person) but the addition o' powhaz that is usable during every combat encounter is a welcome change from the old ie games. HA! Good Fun!

Bioware, if they so choose, can hide responses in circles. You might have 3 different symbols, but only one answer. If texts were in lines, Bioware could still do that but players would most certainly notice the lack of optionsd. Personally I think it's cost cutting move and the fact that modern players don't finish the game at all or finish it only once, so why should Bioware care if all 3 symbols have same answer (maybe just slight variation in VO). Just becaue the lines use the same VO doesn't mean that they'll have the same in-game results. no, it not mean that there will always be same in-game results... but that is frequent the case. regardless, is lazy and cheap, and it is a shortcut that tends to lead to more uninspired lines o' dialogue from the protagonist. the writer has already identified to the player what is the protagonist's intent, so convey meaning becomes less complex but also more crude. takes the art out o' the writing for sake o' simplicity. is a trend in bio games to simplify. simple ain't bad, but to craft simple requires much skill if one is to avoid dumbing-down. da2 can still be a good game, but it does appear to be what many o' us feared it would be: a moderate rushed frankenstein monster amalgam o' da:o and me. maybe the unholy melding o' the two franchises actually works and we all cheer biowarian vision, but... HA! Good Fun! ps we did a disservice to kotor when we compared da2 demo combat to kotor. kotor had the combat queue that were far more intuitive and functional than is the console controls for da2.

am traveling, so we gotta make quick... 1) initial impression were that me2 looked better. we got no particular reason, just feelings. disappointed. 2) the cut-scene full vo dialogues, complete with dialogue wheel , were not a high point. is too little story being developed in the combat heavy demo we played to give a fair assessment o' story and dialogue writing, but the stuff we saw were almost campy... and am not thinking that were intended. 3) for a combat focused demo, we were enjoying the pc combat... good sign. we played all three classes, but not all approaches--played as a dw rogue, but not as an archer. gut reaction were that rogues is very effective combatants. sword and board makes for great tanks, but 2h were kinda underwhelming as we didn't see some marked damage increase to balance out the increased vulnerability. and mages... well, once the difficulty is turned up allowing for friendly fire, we suspect that mages is gonna be far less effective, particular 'cause o' the craptacular camera. 4) the camera sucks. absence o' tactical view makes this game feels more like a kotor wannabe than a da:o sequel. heck, we played xbox and pc version o' the demo and as we were not familiar with xbox controls (which seemed kinda awkward) all we did with the rogue were a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,x,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,b,a,a,a,a,a,a,a... had no idea what we were targeting half the time, but it didn't seems to matter. were better on the pc, but camera still made us feels like we were playing kotor rather than da. 5) played on a marginal pc, and performance were only noticeable bad during dialogues. go figure. oh, and while balance is clear not as important in a sp game as is multi, it sure as hell ain't something to be dismissed. make all classes fun, not balanced. fine. but who wants to be playing the obvious gimped class? same goes for spells and weapons. includes dozens o' spells and abilities, but makes some clear more efficacious than others? results become obvious, and the ability to choose powers and abilities becomes a bit o' a joke. the developer goal should be to make equal fun, but not necessarily equal powered. 'course it should also be obvious that obvious overpowered or underpowered features or classes is making game less fun rather than more enjoyable. duh. more thoughts later, but we gotta catch a flight. HA! Good Fun!

am gonna guess that the problem were more to do with the board monkeys inability to define "legitimate." no doubt priestly and co. were prepared to delete any thread related to a pirated demo, but what to do when a few members o' the master race goes ahead with an early release demo so as to be matching their magazine distribution? is not pirated, but it don't correspond to the release schedule neither. so, is it legitimate? *shrug* perhaps priestly chose to ere on the side o' caution and delete. is admitted silly, but is easy to see how a knee-jerk deletion policy could take hold, particularly in the absence o' anybody with genuine authority. HA! Good Fun!

it is doubtful that bio has much say in the matter. ea will be releasing the demo. it may benefit ea to release sooner than planned if they genuine has some reasoning for wanting to reach X number o' demo downloads, but am not having any idea what logistical obstacles is involved. is the demo multi-platform? if it is, am guessing that microsoft and sony gots input as well. regardless, am doubting the decision process is as simple as we might wish. HA! Good Fun!

try and convince bioware that so many things they did in kotor to enhance cinematic storytelling didn't actual work. is a particular difficult task given the fact that kotor were such an undeniable success. overcoming the mistakes we made in victory is a far different challenge than identifying the errors that led to our defeat. HA! Good Fun!

you should be happy. most of the da2 "improvements" is directed at making their sequel play more like kotor... going "cinematic," whatever that means. bring in camera. has a single identifiable protagonist. simplify combat. etc. HA! Good Fun!

I do think that ME2 missed an opportunity to require some sacrifice by the player, making the ending more of a qualified success. But, really, are there any single-player games outside the various "strategy" genres where the player "failing" yeilds anything other than a death screen and a reload? the biowarians insist that the Average Gamer cannot handle failure. more than once has it been pointed out to the crpg developers north o' the 49th parallel that heroic stories often include heroic failure. what a story protagonist learns in defeat is often vital to character growth and such missteps is typical more compelling dramatic fodder than the heroic success. nevertheless, biowarian experience tells 'em that you, the gamer, will refuse to accept failure and that you will reload obsessively no matter how clear the developers present their no-win scenario. *shrug* sounds like hokum. me1 were achieving an incremental step in the right direction with the player having to choose between death o' kaiden (sp?) and ashley. were not a significant failure, but the Gamer experienced some loss... a literal sacrifice. there were no mass hysteria resulting from the virmire choice, were there? nevertheless, the "suicide mission" in me2 could be completed without a single fallen comrade. am not suggesting that game failure need necessarily include a body count, but the player (not the character) needs to feel some loss for there to be a meaningful failure. multiple aspects o' me2 were showing developmental regression. sad. HA! Good Fun!

alas, we never did get around to playing ap. we were both intrigued and concerned 'bout the development, so we decided to wait for release and reviews. the reviews were less than stellar, and the reports o' bugginess were enough to discourage us from an initial purchase. eventual we will get around to playing ap. back to da2, 'cause this thread will be censored if we does not return to the titular topic... so the rules is gonna remain nebulous so that we not have an idea 'bout what abilities modify which powers and to what degree. we also know that bioware decided to make da rogues more special by taking talents away from the warrior class. in addition, it has been revealed that Gaider thinks very little of the female fans o' da as he has made fenris(sp?) a romancable character. ... am forgetting what our question were. ... oh yeah, how long do you thinks it will be before da2 hits the bargain bin? on a more serious note, am expecting that many questions will be answered with the release o' the demo. HA! Good Fun!

then perhaps all credit should instead go to Gromnir. the boards we do not frequent is "elss tyoelrant." no? HA! Good Fun!

am not gonna pile-on save to note that we stopped regular posting at bioware sometime after the dragon age development began to drag. pretty much every known game issue had been discussed to death, and bio couldn't (or wouldn't) give more info. the site got stale. then something strange happened. with the lack o' new game issues to be discussing, the stuff that became popular bio-board fodder were increasingly foreign to Gromnir: how would sex be implemented in da:o, gay romance, customizable footwear, etc. time passed, but after mass effect 1 were released we made a brief reappearance to discuss some game development aspects... stuff we hoped bio would use/avoid in da:o. made some negative comments 'bout the dialogue wheel as implemented in me. we were promptly banned. were kinda surprised at how little we were bothered by the banning, but given how little we were posting there anyways... *shrug* also, most message boards communities develop an inexplicable esprit de corps mentality. "if you are not with us, then you are against us." is not just bio. regular posters can be critical o' (insert board sponsor here) but n00bs gets slammed pretty hard whenever a criticism is directed at (insert board sponsor here). obsidian boards community is perhaps small enough to avoid such nonsense... or maybe the posters and developers is simply more tolerant o' criticism. regardless, 'tween the ubiquitous romance threads and the We Are Bioware's Army nonsense, Gromnir holds no desire to post at the bio boards. is simply exhausting. okay, it looks as if we went ahead and piled-on. oh well. HA! Good Fun!

sadly, Gromnie would enjoy that. in fact, compared to a cloth map o' fereldan or plastic dice we would much prefer the graphs as part o' a collector's edition package. is a sickness. even so, nobody from bio ever explained to us how the various ability scores actual modified various skills, abilities and powhaz... which is just plain weird given that da:o were a rpg. gots points, but don't know relative worth o' points. so, give us the formulae, and Gromnir will makes our own charts. HA! Good Fun! ps if in a ce we could get an action figure o' sten, complete with attachable/detachable horns, we might be willing to pass on the graphs.