Gromnir

people will complain. ferris bueller broke the fourth wall? *gasp* HA! Good Fun!

am still getting this in 480. HA! Good Fun!

I know that's why I also said Im sure there will be a few situations like that. So inititate combat and don't step on the trap. Disarm after. No one promised a pacifist playthrough. The first line was just me being jocular. I wasn't misrepresenting. I thought it was incredibly ridiculous to compare max stealth/mechanics to the usefulness of a tank. There would have to be a hell of a lot of such situations to compare to the ability to use a tank in every fight in the game. So I responded in an equal amount of jest. You need not respond. but we will respond, 'cause it is equal stupid to suggest that we want a stealthy guy who can disarm traps because o' a single situation in the beta. don't be so hypocritical. and no, initiate combat with a trap that limits our movement is unnecessary if we can apply skills rationally... and we didn't take your advice serious 'cause you suggested disarming after we initiated combat. hell, ain't no real reason to disarm after except for the degenerative gameplay josh criticizes. ridiculous indeed. the stealthy guy who can disarm traps is not an unknown quality in crpgs. poe is a crpg that boasts 'o customization options. the stealthy guy who can disarm traps clearly will have uses in poe. with the joinable npcs, we will be unlikely to be able to create a stealthy guy who can disarm traps. this should not be confusing. you don't need to respond... if is more o' the same. HA! Good Fun!

... you do realize that you are misrepresenting us. we noted that we expect considerable more such situations, particularly as much o' poe bb were wilderness. *shrug* such stuff makes difficult to respond. HA! Good Fun!

am not seeing paladins as underpowered in support, not by any stretch o' the imagination. yes, they is less flexible than the other support characters, but am not seeing lack o' relative power as a fair claim. the aura modals is excellent, and the per encounter/rest abilities you are able to choose are situationally useful. however, we will concede that if you plan on making a paladin your only support party member, you will likely find its lack o' flexibility annoying. we suspect that one reason folks try so hard to make a paladin a tank is 'cause in a support role, the paladin is mostly just kinda... there. the paladin stands near front-lines, and then waits for the situation where one o' his/her abilities could become useful. is not that paladins is weak, but they is largely passive. at least as a tank, the paladin is active. HA! Good Fun!

even in the beta, there were at least 1 trap that were well-nigh impossible to disarm without initiating combat unless you were stealthy and had high mechanics. needed extreme high mechanics and stealth. am gonna bet that there is gonna be more than a couple similar situations in the remainder o' the game. "must have" have a tank is not "must have" neither. nevertheless, we wouldn't wanna play poe without such. have stealth and mechanics separate may be necessary, but (big picture) we got no idea why level one skills were made class-specific anymore than we understand the starting skill distributions (little picture). story/character rationale? HA! Good Fun!

It's knee-jerk gamergate nonsense, mostly. Best to disregard. you should know better than to invoke gamergate. it is the godwin's law for a new generation, yes? whatever complaints we got o' kotaku is most assured not gamergate related, but we shouldn't need make that claim. HA! Good Fun!

it's so gauche linking to our own posts, but... http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70208-who-fills-the-rogue-shoes/?p=1564919 HA! Good Fun!

in a vain attempt to keep kinda on-topic... http://kotaku.com/south-park-the-stick-of-truth-the-kotaku-review-1535203089# had never read the review. we typed "bugs south park kotaku" into google. HA! Good Fun!

never played it, but we did see frequent complaints about south park bugginess at release. it were one o' the only things we do recall from reviews o' a game we had no intention o' playing. we like south park (most o' the time) but a sp game didn't grab us. regardless, we do recall bugs being mentioned. HA! Good Fun!

They hate America. doesn't kotaku have an asian slant? is americans who is fans o' japanese games and entertainment who created the site, yes? at least that is what we assume from the name o' the site and our brief and indifferent perusal o' their content. articles is as likely to be about japanese tv commercials and the latest bizarre japanese pizza hut menu items as they is 'bout games. the thing is, we believe they do a better job with the culture stuff than they does with games. after all, their game reviews is having same draw as their culture drops. kotaku, rather than saying anything that would interest Gromnir, tends to focus on surface appeals to quirkiness or what the anime-watching crowd might think is kewl. there is definite worse sites for game previews and reviews, but even so, we would prefer to french kiss an electrical outlet than spend 10 minutes at the kotaku site reading their game content. am not their target audience. HA! Good Fun!

but I know you have troubles understanding simple points. going for irony? *shrug* then again we did mention only a post ago that people is easily distracted and we knew that convincing folks that a tank skill were useful for a tank character would be difficult at this point. HA! Good Fun! ps complete aside, but we were playing with chanters in anticipation o' utilizing kana, and it seems that "thick grew their tongues" is working opposite o' what we expected. 'course interrupt related talents and abilities all seem a bit weird at this point. That's.. I think that's the first time I see a reverse strawman. Is that a thing these days? Is there a term for it? until folks take a test on their reading o' copi, there should be a prohibition on their use o', or references to, logic fallacies. say, "strawman" is not like abracadabra or hocus pocus, chum. HA! Good Fun!

but I know you have troubles understanding simple points. going for irony? *shrug* then again we did mention only a post ago that people is easily distracted and we knew that convincing folks that a tank skill were useful for a tank character would be difficult at this point. HA! Good Fun! ps complete aside, but we were playing with chanters in anticipation o' utilizing kana, and it seems that "thick grew their tongues" is working opposite o' what we expected. 'course interrupt related talents and abilities all seem a bit weird at this point.

is weird. in multiple threads we got folks complaining how the engagement system hinders combat movement. at the same time, when a fighter can actual engage three foes, some o' the same folks is trying to tell us that engagement is pointless. is weird. engagement for the tank is more significant than many s'pose, particularly in synergy with other abilities and other classes, but there is no way we is gonna be able to convince anybody at this point. ability to hold 3 opponents is just one tanky ability fighters have that paladins do not. perhaps paladins make up for the lack o' pure tanky abilities with their impressive selection o' buffs and cleanses? is worthy debate material and we have no doubt that a defense focused paladin will be a viable tank regardless o' whether or not it is optimal. folks is so easily distracted, but am thinking it helps prove a point-- you not need optimal to be successful in poe. the starting attributes in poe is ultimately less important than the abilities and talents a character will acquire. start attributes are having impact, but they is only one aspect 'mongst many factors that will determine character efficacy. the game were designed to be more balanced than the typical crpg, and so it is. sure, there will be exploits that will need obsidian attention, but non-optimal attributes or a couple bad talents won't cripple or even hinder a joinable. on the other hand if obsidian combines bad attributes, plus bad abilities, plus bad talent selections, plus recruiting at post level 2, then we has the potential for a few teeth gnashing moments. for now, am cautiously optimistic. HA! Good Fun!

paladin tanks are a bit misleading. sure, they got great potential defenses, but tanking is as much about getting and holding aggro as it is about being a damage sink. fighters got superior engagement when in defender mode. fighter abilities is also more tank focused than is paladin abilities. am of the opinion that the deeper you get into the game, the paladin-as-tank builds will be decreasing in efficacy. that being said, particular on normal mode, we expect that the paladin will suffice in the tank role, even if it ultimately is not as impressive as a fighter tank.. or a monk tank. 'course, everybody has an opinion. HA! Good Fun!

just for the heck o' it, we made an elder tank in the bb and level'd to 8... same attributes as in the genesis post. we armed our elder with a fine hatchet and the fine large shield-- no ring o' deflection or any other goodies. is wearing plate. took vanilla talents and abilities-- constant recovery, defender, fighting spirit, knockdown, unbending and vigorous defense for abilities bonus knockdown, weapon and shield style, wary defender and rapid recovery. coulda' optimized talents and abilities a bit better, but we figure we ain't gonna get elder at level 1. with defender modal active, we got following stats: health- 827 endurance- 166 accuracy- 45 def- 102 fort 75 ref 83 wil 61 vigorous defense gets us a +20 to ALL defenses for 17.3 seconds, and the tank elder will effective have much greater endurance than we see listed. am having difficulty finding a way to complain about elder. *shrug* the other joinables will be similar in that how they is level'd is gonna have as much/more impact than starting attributes. durance will never be tanky, regardless o' his resolve, but he will be a very reliable support/heals. like it or not, aloth's effectiveness will be determined more by how you got your grimoire(s) filled than the attribute spreads-- use spells even remotely coherent, and he will be almost indispensable. etc. am not worried about the joinables based on initial attribute allocations. that being said, am far more concerned with talents and abilities. these joinables can be well and fully buggar'd if they gots horrible talent and ability selections and they is already level'd to 3 or 4 or whatever. HA! Good Fun!

people always reference their attributes in their build comparisons, but talents and abilities are likely more important than the attributes. say you got same attributes for two classes is less meaningful than you might expect. HA! Good Fun!

well, you weren't compelled to go to the inn as your first stop, but we get your meaning. the biowarians sure did learn their lesson for bg2. starting poe attributes is about as important as starting d&d 3.5 attributes. the starting point spreads is not inconsequential, but unlike d&d, there ain't the same opportunities to ridiculous inflate the staring attributes. poe attributes, while meaningful, is ultimately less important than talents and abilities, simply 'cause you is gonna get more abilities and talents. poe attributes won't get the d&d treatment whereby you effective need boost your prime attribute through the ceiling or you will be a constant fail. find ways to boost and stack an attribute will not supercede talents and abilities. we played the beta for many hours... too many hours. as often as not, we used the bb fighter as a tank with tank abilities and tank talents. our bb fighter ended up with very impressive deflection and were a fireplug tank that ruled engagement. the bb fighter gots crap resolve and perception. the attributes is having similar long-range impact as the starting point-buy abilities o' a 3e d&d pnp character. that isn't a bad thing, but am believing people is again looking at poe with their crpg experience as a filtre. compared to most crpgs with starting attributes, the initial poe numbers is gonna have far less meaning-- far less long-term meaning. *shrug* khalid were potential a fantastic archer, but he did stink up the joint early in the game. when we look at the starting attributes for the poe companions, we is hardly discouraged. with talents and abilities, we has no doubt we can make any o' the poe joinables effective. after all, the difference between effective and optimal, when looking only at starting attributes, is not particular large in poe. HA! Good Fun!

Honestly from the sound of it, you're still using the pet incorrectly. You talk about how much micro-managing it needs, but if you have a ranged ranger then it would probably need LESS management than it would for a melee ranger. You also refer to it as a seventh party member. To me, it sounds like you have the pet on the front lines with your tanks. That's not where the pet belongs, even if it's a bear or antelope. The pet should never be initially targeted by anything for engagement, it should single out a roamer or something presently engaged, and then the ranger follows the target of the pet. Pets tank just like rogues do, which is to say that they are not suited for it at all. Hang back with the pet, wait until the field is settled. If you find yourself missing a tank because the pet isn't grabbing aggro, then your party is imbalanced. The only time the pet can rush in is when the ranger is also melee. The ranger has higher defenses, access to higher DR, and has more endurance than the pet. The ranger will tank while the pet deals damage. The pet is not a meat shield, it is the method by which rangers deal damage. this is not our first rodeo. we never send the animal companion out front first. given how many times we has played the beta, we know how and when and what direction beetles and spiders and cultists will attack. if we didn't, we would be kinda screwed with the animal companion. however, the animal companion must be sent in to attack enemies at some point or it is worthless. hard-mode battles happen fast and frequent involve large-sized mobs that, gosh, sometimes make their saves v. slicken or get past a tank or whatever. try and fight more than one average or weak enemy = animal companion death. try to have animal comp run away from multiple foes = animal death. etc. and yeah, it is equivalent o' an extra party member as far as balancing is concerned. count the number o' party member icons... then add 1. the animal companion is a fragile extra party member with increasingly terrible accuracy, but the obsidians gotta treat the animal companion as extra beyond party member numbers... that is why poe has so few summons. persistent summons is effectively an extra party member, albeit a weak, taciturn and frequent annoying party member. HA! Good Fun!

after another +8 hours o' ranger play... meh. it isn't a hopeless class as it were in previous builds, but there is no way we would play a ranger our first time through poe on hard mode. the animal companion continues to require constant attention and care during the beta combats we have now completed literal dozens (hundreds?) of times. for Gromnir, meta-knowledge o' battles is almost a prerequisite for keeping the critter alive. also, the class still don't work particularly well as designed-- it is not a ranged-heavy hitter on par with the rogue. the class is not exactly great, but it ain't guaranteed to frustrate neither, save for our previous observation that we cannot possibly recommend playing a ranger for a first run o' poe on hard mode. as complete impossible as the suggestion is to be accepted by obsidian or boardies, we once again will put forth the notion that the single best way to improve the ranger is to comple discard the animal companion. the synergy between ranger and companion still needs tuning, the companions themselves are more nuisance than anything else, and we suspect that obsidian has more than a little difficulty balancing what amounts to a 7th party member. get rid o' the ranger's parasite and rebuild without all the attendant headaches and hurdles. HA! Good Fun!

yeah, it can be a boring class, but that is a selling point for some folks. boring to Gromnir is blessed low-maintenance to another player. even so, we woulda' liked more options for abilities that required player involvement, but we woulda' wanted stuff such as sock suggested earlier in the thread. improve paladin by including more abilities, optional abilities, that would still be defensive and support in nature, but would require more player monitoring, for those o' us micro-managers who have control issues... or whatever. HA! Good Fun!

Not class is "intended as [role]". Even assuming so goes against the design goals. Yes, Paladins are good at Support, and can make great tanks, but that is no excuse whatsoever to argue against being able to build them like anything else. It is needlessly and meaninglessly restrictive. This is not an MMO. Ultimately, each class should have any number of different roles or approaches as determined by their builds or the playstyle of the player, without any intended pigeonholing. This is really what it comes down to. There is no inherent reason why Paladins need to be a support class, nor any reason why paladins should be less engaging and interesting than any other class. Using "it's intended as [x]" is merely an excuse and symptomatic of shallow Rock-Paper-Scissor gameplay favoured by MMO:s and new-era FPS:s everywhere. Especially in an RPG, every class should have a wide range of viable builds able to perform admirably if built in those directions, and potentially always be just as interesting, engaging, and reactive as any other class. Anyone excusing bad mechanics with "it's intended" is really just mouthing off cop-outs. obsidian disagreed. when they announced the paladin class, they specific identified its role. obsidian did not hide the fact that the paladin were s'posed to be a support role class that were excellent in defense. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66195-update-78-the-leaders-of-the-band-chanters-and-priests/ http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63968-update-56-paladins-and-wild-orlans/?p=1342013 the poe paladin is s'posed to play like 4e warlord or 3.5 marshal. the poe paladin had an intended role, just as all the other poe classes had roles. 11 classes. if you got 11 classes, it makes sense to have them be distinct. why have classes at all if you can let players customize complete out o' the class role? actually, Gromnir would be perfectly ok with no classes-- let the player make their own class from a wide variety o' abilities and talents. get rid o' classes and have free customization is a wonderful idea and it would get you and dune what you want. 'course that ain't what we got in poe. we got classes in poe. the more classes you got, the more narrow defined they must needs be. it were never hidden by the obsidians that the classes were designed to fulfill roles and that each role would be distinct, which is perfect rational and reasonable. folks who want a bunch o' classes and wanna freely customize outta the roles attached to the classes is what don't make sense to us... and apparently not to the developers either. HA! Good Fun!

hard mode is particular hard on the ranger's animal companions. hard mode increases the size o' mobs, and it is difficult to protect the animal companion from the flood o' beetles or spiders or whatever the developers throw at us right before we get hit with the kitchen sink. frequent enough, protecting the animal companion is converse either impossible or simple not worth the effort as keeping the critter safe also negates the animal companion's usefulness to the ranger. am admitting we haven't played more than about 2 hours o' ranger since 480 were released. we will play a bit more and see if it has genuine changed enough to warrant a reappraisal. HA! Good Fun!

these are excellent suggestions and more than more smite fixes, we would rather see such stuff added to a paladin's catalog o' abilities. dunehunter, the paladin is intended as a support class. if you wanna do serious melee damage, the rogue is an ideal alternative. *shrug* HA! Good Fun!

am admitting that we prefer more micro-management, but not everybody does. we like pressing buttons and controlling details o' combat. based on boardie feedback, other folks is less enthusiastic 'bout the minutiae. heck, am recalling that when the beta were first released, one o' the most oft-heard complaints were that combat were far too frenetic, particularly in hard mode. a class that didn't require constant handholding were a bit o' a boon. yeah, obsidian has worked a bit to make combat less overwhelming, but even so, for folks who don't have tens o' hours invested in poe combat, we suspect that the pace o' combat will be unexpected. perhaps some o' those folks will see usefulness in a poe paladin, yes? create 11 balanced and genuine unique classes for a crpg is no mean feat. paladins are low management support characters with excellent defensive qualities, so they is kinda meant to be boring to folks such as Gromnir who enjoy pressing buttons. that being said, we recognize the niche the paladin fills, and that niche don't need smite. HA! Good Fun!