213374U

What a surprise. Another poster that, with his arguments destroyed, and his trollish demeanor uncovered, takes full advantage of the ignore function. As I said before, it's nice to see that bigotry runs rampant. Well, I really hope you keep your word and stop derailing this thread that was perfectly on topic until you made it personal about me. Yep. And best of all is that I do that only after I have presented valid arguments to counter the childish rem... er, comments.

I am not advocating extreme patriotism, as I have already explained. Your inability to understand my position is only proof of how narrow sighted you are. Oh, and I don't have any goals. Not here at least. I don't try to convince others that my opinions are right, neither do I try to have others feel patriotic. The funny thing is, I have never stated I'm the paradigm of patriotism myself. You have done nothing but generalize and pull stuff out of your ass for your conclusions. You are quite the master conversationalist, indeed. Here we go again with a barrage of lame ad hominem attacks. Keep trying to ridiculize me, but you have failed to defuse any of my arguments. That is what makes you a troll. To someone as narrow minded as yourself, perhaps. I have to deal on a daily basis with extremists of patriotism which in some cases border fascism, and I can't tell you how much they sicken me. But why am I telling you all of this? Your prejudices will overrule your logic and common sense everytime. I feel somewhat sorry for you.

An extremist? Yeah, I'm an extremist at bashing moronic trolls like you. It's always fun to see people resort to cheap flames and trolling when their particular brand of logic fails. Oh well, it's good to see that there are still plenty of examples of bigotry and stupidity for people not to follow. Hey, everyone's got to be useful for something. Looks like we found what you are useful for. Thanks for that.

No. Steve has only made a second-hand assessment of what patriotism is about in some cases and only in the US. Obviously you have a knack for generalizations, since you consider that to be the case in the rest of the world. I will turn my brains on, but you sure as hell should grow some. There you go again with another inane generalization. Your obtuse neighbors associating patriotism with nazism means nothing, because no amount of people supporting a wrong idea will make it right. And no, I'm no neonazi. I seem to be even less right-leaning than you (even though for some reason I believe you would say anything to get yourself out of the mess you have gotten into) since even though I love my country, I will give my support to whatever party I think will do it better, whatever may be their colour. You still fail to understand that patriotism has nothing to do with political regimes, or politics at all for that matter. Mission failed, troll.

What you consider is of no consequence. What you can prove or at least back up is what counts. So far you have done none of these things. And let me remind you it's you who has brought sides to this. I never "coloured" patriotism, but you have. And in doing so you have apparently revealed yourself as a "lefty". Well, my dear lefty. As far as right-haters go, there wasn't anyone more so than the Soviet Union. And guess what, patriotism was as promoted there as in the US or nazi Germany. Translation: "I'm moderately patriotic, but I fear that if I claim that I "love" my country, I might be labeled a "righty"". That's why I asked you the question about muslims. Since you appear to be having difficulties grasping what's behind it, let me clear it up for you. Not every muslim is a suicide bomber, just like not every patriot is a neonazi. Extremes are always bad, that's for sure. But the same way that people who take patriotism to the extreme might assume fascist stances, extremely unpatriotic people tend to be anarchists. I honestly don't see how one is better than the other. No. You are describing fascism, nazism, and their exaltation, corruption and exploitation of the patriotic feeling. It's sad to see people confuse those so far after the fall of those ideologies. Why, WHY? :'(

And I cringe when you guys compare the feeling of love for your History, your culture, your customs and the people that are part of it, to neonazism. Do you consider all muslims suicide bombers, too? Fine by me. Only I wash my hands if she decides to have it. It was her choice. And no, I don't value my sperm quite so much. I sell it, after all.

Again, you fail to explain why one should serve their country if they don't want to. Not that I am a very strong supporter of personal freedom above anything else, but I have the impression you are. And if patriotism was indeed to fade away as you point (not that's bloody likely), it would just increase the discomfort caused by drafting since it would remove the only reason to willingly join the army. And sorry, but you also seem to fail to grasp the concept of "class". Since the army is an open place and anybody can join, anyone can reach that "upper class", which means it's not a class anymore. Therefore, it's a much easier way of gaining social prestige than making a fortune, as things are. Riskier, but easier nonetheless. The idea that everyone should get the same "rights" and advantages just because they exist is not only unfair, it's idiotic. Equality is a fallacy. Trying to enforce it artificially is a wasted effort, and a dangerous thing to try for society since it kills the possibility of selfish personal advancement. And that has ultimately been the reason for human advancement since the dawn of time. Thus making military action only acceptable in terms of self-defense. That would indeed be ideal, but it just doesn't work that way. No empire has ever maintained itself just by exercising "self-defense", and no one ever will. I am discussing the real world here, not ideals. That's a contradiction, I think. One should try and strive for perfection despite knowing that one will never achieve it? Where do you stop? Or do you stop at nothing and perfection becomes an obsession? Setting an impossible goal kinda defeats the whole purpose of trying. And since perfection is such an undefined thing, how do you temper that idea with pragmatism? How much is one supposed to be willing to sacrifice for that idea? No, I don't think I agree with that (not your interpretation, the paragraph itself). I believe in dealing with the problems you have today. That's what (supposedly!) politicians do. Let them philosophers try to define and achieve perfection. A rather short-sighted thing to say. If the child was yours, it's of no consequence who bears it, since it's 50% your responsibility in case it's born. I think you should have a say in the matter.

LOL

I know. In fact most of the regimes in South America now are the result of decades of manipulation and scheming on the US' part. Therefore, their status now is the direct handiwork of the US. But in time, it's just another empire that will decline. The signs are showing already. And in time, those countries will mature and develop as a society and grow strong enough to stop being mere pawns. Or perhaps they won't. But then, it will be because of their own complacency. It will be their fault, without excuses. I am just glad that they aren't philosophers running the world. *edited for quotes.

For starters, there are no "second-grade" citizens. And you know well that a measure that causes social discomfort doesn't strengthen society, more like the opposite. Patriotism isn't something you can or should force on people, it's a character trait. You are ultimately proposing that everyone is forced to risk their life for something they might not believe in. It would be no different if the Church was allowed to draft people to conduct holy wars. Sorry, that's just too utopic. Military actions are an essential part of any power's policy. Without them, said country would eventually crumble, as a power at least. And if you don't know what the consequences of that are, there are plenty of History books which illustrate it quite nicely.

The US policy for them wouldn't be worth jack if their own leaders didn't allow it. But unfortunately for those countries their leaders are the first who are willing to sell the country. We had our share of corrupt tyrants over here, too. We overthrew them over time. I don't see why they should have for free and instantly what we had to pay in blood and took centuries. Now that would be unfair. Yep. That's an excellent formula to promote mass defection from the army, as well as inefficiency and complacency within the ranks. I don't know about you, but I'm not paid in advance.

US citizenship has a price that is only set by the democratically elected government of the US. It's your choice to buy it or not.

That's the kind of demagogy that I love to hear. Again, nobody forces you to join the military. If you do it, you must keep in mind the possible consequences of that decision. Let's not mistake things. Being a soldier is potentially the most dangerous job there is. It's not something to be taken lightly or merely as a shortcut to other things. It means you become cannon fodder at the government's disposal. What you can't do is have the interests of the country be subject to some cowardly hedonist notion of what being a soldier is.

It works both ways. If instead of out of patriotism you do it for the benefits, you have to pay the price. You might be sent to Iraq or some other unpleasant place, and ultimately you might get killed. It's a fair tradeoff if you ask me. The last sentence of that paragraph is the key. It's their choice, as adults. Nothing is free. Um, so? Why should he be granted US citizenship in the first place?

Beautiful... but false. He didn't give his life for freedom. He gave his life for the US. It's not the same thing.

Um, no. Drafting is a source of social discomfort. And making it mandatory would cheapen that duty as well. If you don't believe in what your country stands for, you shouldn't be forced to serve it, if we are to believe in individual freedom. But on the other hand, being a patriot is for many a badge of honor. Serving in the army is the ultimate proof of patriotism, I think, since it means you are willing to give your life for your country. Not as much for the State or the government, but for the people. In my opinion it's fair to reward such a selfless attitude.

No. Costa Rica doesn't have an army and is surviving because nobody would really want to attack them, and in the event of natural catastrophes they rely on international aid. And powers using military action to protect their interests is nothing new. In fact, that's how powers maintain their status. They didn't need an excuse in the old times, though. Sorry folks, that's how the world works.

I no longer want to be a Blood Angel.

So what. Joining the army is as good a way as any to serve your country. Despite what some european countries (and asshat pacifists) think, armies are necessary. And since your hopes of making a fortune in the army are nonexistant, it's only fair you have some kind of compensation afterwards. Be it social advantages, better formation and experience, or whatever.

Huh? I didn't deny that in the case of your family things had gone well. That doesn't prove that hard work is a guarantee of success. In fact, wealth distribution in the US disproves that. Or are you saying that everyone except the wealthy are lazy bastards?

That pretty much sums it up. If you can't put your brains before your groin, you don't have an excuse for abortion. That is a common mistake. They are beliefs because they can't be rationalized. If they could, they would be philosophical postulates. What religious people claim is that Faith is a gift of their God (whatever that might be). Since I don't have that Faith, I can't really say what it's like, but I don't try to "rationalize" it. Thinking that you should be able to "rationalize" God with our little logic is, at the very least, arrogant. The big lie of capitalism. If you are born poor, chances are you will die poor. It doesn't have to be that way per se, but the odds are against you.

Not any sooner than the author of those comics.

Well, they removed the "Storyline Discussion" board that was actually the only K2 board that was not chock full of spam and bitching. They could have kept that one.

Shiver me timbers! Two out o' three, matey!

Only loosely. If it's not SW d20, you can't quite compare.