213374U

Beat both of you n00bs to it. :owned:

Unfortunately that would mean that OE endorse Aurora's work. And I don't think they can afford it, LA being what they are with regards to fans modding their games.

It's always fun when people totally make up the stuff of their first post.

It sure seems a short fix list for the amount of time it took them to release it.

Where did I say it was out of kindness or ideology? But can you assure that without the US intervention WWII would have been won? The Germans were close to completely overrunning the Soviet Union, and even after they were driven back at Kursk no European country was in any shape to take the fighting back to them without further support. Whether the USSR would have been able to lead a successful counterstrike without US support against German forces is highly debatable. We don't know either if they would have kept pressing foward after they had driven the Germans out of Soviet soil, considering the huge losses they had already suffered. So, yeah. We really didn't need the US.

Nah, I wasn't complaining about the personal attacks, I couldn't care less about those. I was just pointing out that he resorted to those when he found himself unable to refute me. That's the difference. Want me to refute his arguments? I can do that, too. Wrong. That's just one of the aspects of patriotism. Well, sorry about that. I hear it's pretty comfortable as far as POW camps go. Well, considering that NATO forces are made up mostly of US equipment and personnel, I'd say we depend somewhat on their military. And let's not forget it was the US that came to the rescue in WWII. So... yeah. For the nth time, fascism and national socialism are not other words for patriotism. You tell your friends that. Is that better, Ros?

And that's what happens when proud illiteracy meets raw stupidity.

I wouldn't know. I am the result of the circumstances I've grown in. Would my views be different? Possibly. But that doesn't necessarily mean they would be any more right. Still, I try to have an objective, detached opinion about all this. Why aren't Julius Caesar's or Alexander the Great's campaigns considered "great human tragedies", but today's wars are? The goals aren't any different, only the means. Why are the great military leaders of old called "conquerors" and those who start wars today are called murderers? It seems that we would like to see ourselves as "enlightened" when compared to the people of the old times. Sure, we have TFT displays and sliced bread, but as far as politics are concerned, things haven't changed significantly. I really wish I could think of a world that could work without war, but that's just wishful thinking. History puts everyone in their rightful place. For a civilian that is correct. But it's not a soldier's place to question orders. If they did, the chain of command would crumble, and the army would stop working as a cohesive fighting force. That is what military Justice is for. You might argue that then the whole idea of an organization that turns men into automatons is absurd, but that's beside the point. If you can think of something better, feel free to share it with us. Obviously all of that doesn't apply in totalitarian regimes, but that's a whole different story.

So it's not your fault when you kill innocent people. You just did what they told you to. SUBJECTIVE MORALITY GO Yep. That's how it works. Nobody said it had to be pretty or leave a nice aftertaste.

Those aren't really classes. For instance, the Dathomir Nightsisters are just Force Adepts, from a class standpoint. It would be like considering "stormtrooper" and "rebel trooper" two different classes.

That's what I think.

(w00t)

What a surprise. Another poster that, with his arguments destroyed, and his trollish demeanor uncovered, takes full advantage of the ignore function. As I said before, it's nice to see that bigotry runs rampant. Well, I really hope you keep your word and stop derailing this thread that was perfectly on topic until you made it personal about me. Yep. And best of all is that I do that only after I have presented valid arguments to counter the childish rem... er, comments.

I am not advocating extreme patriotism, as I have already explained. Your inability to understand my position is only proof of how narrow sighted you are. Oh, and I don't have any goals. Not here at least. I don't try to convince others that my opinions are right, neither do I try to have others feel patriotic. The funny thing is, I have never stated I'm the paradigm of patriotism myself. You have done nothing but generalize and pull stuff out of your ass for your conclusions. You are quite the master conversationalist, indeed. Here we go again with a barrage of lame ad hominem attacks. Keep trying to ridiculize me, but you have failed to defuse any of my arguments. That is what makes you a troll. To someone as narrow minded as yourself, perhaps. I have to deal on a daily basis with extremists of patriotism which in some cases border fascism, and I can't tell you how much they sicken me. But why am I telling you all of this? Your prejudices will overrule your logic and common sense everytime. I feel somewhat sorry for you.

An extremist? Yeah, I'm an extremist at bashing moronic trolls like you. It's always fun to see people resort to cheap flames and trolling when their particular brand of logic fails. Oh well, it's good to see that there are still plenty of examples of bigotry and stupidity for people not to follow. Hey, everyone's got to be useful for something. Looks like we found what you are useful for. Thanks for that.

No. Steve has only made a second-hand assessment of what patriotism is about in some cases and only in the US. Obviously you have a knack for generalizations, since you consider that to be the case in the rest of the world. I will turn my brains on, but you sure as hell should grow some. There you go again with another inane generalization. Your obtuse neighbors associating patriotism with nazism means nothing, because no amount of people supporting a wrong idea will make it right. And no, I'm no neonazi. I seem to be even less right-leaning than you (even though for some reason I believe you would say anything to get yourself out of the mess you have gotten into) since even though I love my country, I will give my support to whatever party I think will do it better, whatever may be their colour. You still fail to understand that patriotism has nothing to do with political regimes, or politics at all for that matter. Mission failed, troll.

What you consider is of no consequence. What you can prove or at least back up is what counts. So far you have done none of these things. And let me remind you it's you who has brought sides to this. I never "coloured" patriotism, but you have. And in doing so you have apparently revealed yourself as a "lefty". Well, my dear lefty. As far as right-haters go, there wasn't anyone more so than the Soviet Union. And guess what, patriotism was as promoted there as in the US or nazi Germany. Translation: "I'm moderately patriotic, but I fear that if I claim that I "love" my country, I might be labeled a "righty"". That's why I asked you the question about muslims. Since you appear to be having difficulties grasping what's behind it, let me clear it up for you. Not every muslim is a suicide bomber, just like not every patriot is a neonazi. Extremes are always bad, that's for sure. But the same way that people who take patriotism to the extreme might assume fascist stances, extremely unpatriotic people tend to be anarchists. I honestly don't see how one is better than the other. No. You are describing fascism, nazism, and their exaltation, corruption and exploitation of the patriotic feeling. It's sad to see people confuse those so far after the fall of those ideologies. Why, WHY? :'(

And I cringe when you guys compare the feeling of love for your History, your culture, your customs and the people that are part of it, to neonazism. Do you consider all muslims suicide bombers, too? Fine by me. Only I wash my hands if she decides to have it. It was her choice. And no, I don't value my sperm quite so much. I sell it, after all.

Again, you fail to explain why one should serve their country if they don't want to. Not that I am a very strong supporter of personal freedom above anything else, but I have the impression you are. And if patriotism was indeed to fade away as you point (not that's bloody likely), it would just increase the discomfort caused by drafting since it would remove the only reason to willingly join the army. And sorry, but you also seem to fail to grasp the concept of "class". Since the army is an open place and anybody can join, anyone can reach that "upper class", which means it's not a class anymore. Therefore, it's a much easier way of gaining social prestige than making a fortune, as things are. Riskier, but easier nonetheless. The idea that everyone should get the same "rights" and advantages just because they exist is not only unfair, it's idiotic. Equality is a fallacy. Trying to enforce it artificially is a wasted effort, and a dangerous thing to try for society since it kills the possibility of selfish personal advancement. And that has ultimately been the reason for human advancement since the dawn of time. Thus making military action only acceptable in terms of self-defense. That would indeed be ideal, but it just doesn't work that way. No empire has ever maintained itself just by exercising "self-defense", and no one ever will. I am discussing the real world here, not ideals. That's a contradiction, I think. One should try and strive for perfection despite knowing that one will never achieve it? Where do you stop? Or do you stop at nothing and perfection becomes an obsession? Setting an impossible goal kinda defeats the whole purpose of trying. And since perfection is such an undefined thing, how do you temper that idea with pragmatism? How much is one supposed to be willing to sacrifice for that idea? No, I don't think I agree with that (not your interpretation, the paragraph itself). I believe in dealing with the problems you have today. That's what (supposedly!) politicians do. Let them philosophers try to define and achieve perfection. A rather short-sighted thing to say. If the child was yours, it's of no consequence who bears it, since it's 50% your responsibility in case it's born. I think you should have a say in the matter.

LOL

I know. In fact most of the regimes in South America now are the result of decades of manipulation and scheming on the US' part. Therefore, their status now is the direct handiwork of the US. But in time, it's just another empire that will decline. The signs are showing already. And in time, those countries will mature and develop as a society and grow strong enough to stop being mere pawns. Or perhaps they won't. But then, it will be because of their own complacency. It will be their fault, without excuses. I am just glad that they aren't philosophers running the world. *edited for quotes.

For starters, there are no "second-grade" citizens. And you know well that a measure that causes social discomfort doesn't strengthen society, more like the opposite. Patriotism isn't something you can or should force on people, it's a character trait. You are ultimately proposing that everyone is forced to risk their life for something they might not believe in. It would be no different if the Church was allowed to draft people to conduct holy wars. Sorry, that's just too utopic. Military actions are an essential part of any power's policy. Without them, said country would eventually crumble, as a power at least. And if you don't know what the consequences of that are, there are plenty of History books which illustrate it quite nicely.

The US policy for them wouldn't be worth jack if their own leaders didn't allow it. But unfortunately for those countries their leaders are the first who are willing to sell the country. We had our share of corrupt tyrants over here, too. We overthrew them over time. I don't see why they should have for free and instantly what we had to pay in blood and took centuries. Now that would be unfair. Yep. That's an excellent formula to promote mass defection from the army, as well as inefficiency and complacency within the ranks. I don't know about you, but I'm not paid in advance.

US citizenship has a price that is only set by the democratically elected government of the US. It's your choice to buy it or not.