Silent Winter

That's a statement but not backed up by any reasoning. Quest XP makes all solutions equally viable and therefore different solutions can be used in different playthroughs without worrying about XP gain. If my characters are more stealthy this time, I'm not going to miss crushing those beetles. Not sure how you can conclude that the game is designed around Quest XP I can conclude it because the game is being designed around quest XP - that's what the designers have said. Yes but they've only been showing off the combat - they didn't try talking the ogre down or avoiding the beetles - and nobody's saying combat won't be great and fun to engage in - I'm looking forward to fighting those beetles, ogre, and all the rest. This isn't about not liking combat. Yes - and it may turn out that I'm completely mistaken and it's been a horrible decision .... so lets wait and see how much fun the game is Ok, that's subjective anyway but as you say, we'll have to wait and see. (though again 'xp-reward' is only part of the reward - finding stuff through the exploration is also a reward)

WTF! If you're going to falsely claim that they're part of the Objective that you're getting XP for then YES, they in fact MUST be mechanically tied to the objective. otherwise, you're not getting XP for dealing with them. I think we just view the world differently - you must overcome the beetles in some way to get to the cave - for me that constitutes a step on the path and thus is part of the objective. It needn't be mechanically so. You can deal with many (not all) threats in different ways, including killing and stealthing, but to get to the xp, you must overcome it. 'Fun' is also part of the objective - it needn't be awarded as an in-game achievement. Also: "If you're going to falsely claim" - presupposing it's false doesn't support your point. I'm not trying to falsely claim anything - I'm claiming it. But I can see we simply look at the terms 'objective' and 'reward' in different ways - so be it. The game's got quest-xp, not kill-xp so it doesn't really matter.

fair enough -I'm also only asking for people to remember to argue the point, not the simile/metaphor (though using the metaphor to help point out where the person has misunderstood the point is fine). Different people have a habit of expressing themselves differently, it's often hard to change that. I have a tendency to ramble on past my point sometimes, like now, and end up burying my point under the news that we can craft chocolate biscuits in the game.

I just assumed it was for style But yeah, the cursor should be hidden too

^this is why any xp award is abstract. I'm not against kill-xp in every game, it worked ok in BG,IWD etc. I just think this system being employed in PoE is a good step for diverse gameplay and replayability as we find different ways through encounters and quests. When the game is designed around quest-xp, the per-kill-xp isn't needed.

I want to focus on this, because it's false. Running away from encounters specifically designed to challenge your party and (according to you) also designed to justify the "objective XP" that you're gonna get at the end of the quest, is every bit the degenerate behavior that Kill Grinding is. You are literally doing what the developers did not mean for you to do. And this is why I asked you how you know that areas will be inaccessible until you deal with those beetles. Because if, for example, the Ogre den IS closed off to you until those beetles are slain, or scared off, or stealthed-past, then that's totally fine. But if not, then we've got a design problem: you were able to bypass the beetle threat without employing ANY skill whatsoever, and therefore, your objective XP rewards should be lessened as a result. I doubt they will be, though, because the OGRE is the objective, not the beetles. You seem to use 'reward' as only a mechanical term, I'm using it to literally mean you can get to the cave but you must go through the beetles to get there. Beeltes are in the way - sneaking past them is maybe an option - in which case it's rewarded the same way. 'run away from' would involve getting all those disengagement attacks and is therefore risky - but the threat is out of the way and therefore 'dealt with' from the purposes of no longer being a threat - until you want to run past them again on the way back (and again - this involves your entire party being faster than the enemy, not sure that's right here) (and the enemy not following you through area transitions like the cave entrance). Your concern of degenerate behaviour is valid, and the devs should take note that it shouldn't be possible to simply run around all enemies while laughing - I'm pretty sure that once you're within a certain distance, they'll be able to close and engage you - giving the aforementioned disengagement attacks if you run - one dead fighter, 2 dead wizards, whatever) Those beetles are on the way to the cave - they are in the way of exploring the map - if you don't want to explore the map, go to another area. The beetles needn't be mechanically tied to the cave or the ogre in order to constitute a step on the way. Methinks that's where you're misunderstanding (or simply not accepting) the point - things needn't be mechanically bound in order to be a part of the whole. As I said 'deal with the threat' can be understood to simply mean 'remove the threat from your party or remove your party from the threat' That's how I mean it and that's the point I'm making - there are risks and rewards with the different solutions - the risk of leaving the beetles alive is that they're still there next time you traverse the area. "why is the ogre worth xp but not the beetles? Because you were told by a NPC to talk/kill him? Huh." You can tackle the ogre without getting the quest from someone, so no. It's worth xp to deal with the whole objective. The ogre is at the back of a spider cave through an area full of beetles - go the whole hog and get the xp, or leave an area half-uncovered and accept that you may get nothing for it. As to the 3rd point - piglet is result of cave - cave is beyond beetles In fact, if you run away from the beetles, get to the Ogre den, then kill the Ogre and receive the Objective XP reward...what then? Can you claim that the beetles were part of the Quest objective, even though you're still totally free to deal with them AFTER receiving the XP rewards for completing the Objective? Given that I consider sneaking past them to be 'dealt with' then yes, I can claim that. Sneaking past them again to report to the farmer (IF you're on the quest) is antoher part of that objective. If you want to kill them 2nd time then that's an option too. Again - needn't be mechanically bound to be part of an obstacle to an objective. SOME of them, yes - so depending on how careful you are, you may not pull all the beeltes on your way to the cave - great tactics - (of course, exploring the rest of the area involves scouting past/killing/using the mystical potion of beeltes'bane you found in the ruin on/etc the beetles.). So the beetles aren't all part of the objective of the cave - but they are part of the various objectives in the area.

I'll ask again. Where are you getting this from? Is that dungeon inaccessible until the beetles are slain? Are you prevented from accessing ANY Area transition on the entire map until you've dealt with the beetle threat? As for delayed XP....will the rewards be less if you run away from the beetles and just make a bee-line to the Ogre den? And then people wonder why Lephys writes longer posts to thoroughly explain what he means - it's because others can't get it without being led through it: I said 'deal with the threat' which from the video and in this case means you'll probably have to combat them. Assuming you're faster, then you might be able to run away but getting past without incurring lots of 'disengagement attacks' would be tricky (and thus worthy of reward) 'Run away from' = deal with the threat 'Sneak past' = deal with the threat 'kill-em-all' = deal with the threat 'kill just the ones in your way through careful party management and not antagonising those further afield' = deal with the threat THAT'S THE POINT! There are multiple ways to overcome the threats - the game just takes into account that you did it and then awards xp / you get to the cave / piglet-pet / etc

What kind of a nonsense question is that? Did I specify beetles? - No. What I said was that IF you want to get through to those areas (like the cave), then you NEED to somehow overcome the beetle threat. Your reward for overcoming the beetles (in this case) threat is that you can access those otherwise inaccessible areas. (See also: Delayed XP) This isn't simply a matter of "inventing justifications that aren't actually there." - it's the justification given before for the quest XP system - multiple solutions to achieve goals - XP for achieving goals - killing beetles in and of itself isn't a goal here. Edit: Spleling Edit 2: Choclolate biscuits will probably not be a goal either - but if I want them, I'll have to satisfy myself with crafting them for the benefits that they do give. <- before anyone jumps on this as being 'my point' - it's not - it's tongue in cheek - I just like the idea of crafting chocolate biscuits

^because the devs decided that killing your way through those beetles and finding the cave and getting past the spiders AND dealing with the ogre was worth [number]XP Or didn't you read my point about 'delayed reward'?

^indeed - but this way the developers can still stagger levelling and party-power increases according to a total of how much 'stuff' you do and you can do it in different ways. Killing? -> XP Talking? -> XP etc So your characters can increase in power over the course of the game and be prepared for greater challenges - we're not saying 'XP is bad' (or even that 'kill-XP games' are bad) - just that this way of awarding xp is more flexible and allows for a greater range of solutions while still having xp-reward

depending on your party make-up/skills, you may be able to sneak past some such encounters but others are just 'in your way' Don't want to fight them? Then don't go exploring over there. The reward for beating them is as Pantaleimon said: The loot and the opening up of more areas. The game is based around the challenge, not the xp - the xp you need will be fulfilled through other objectives (many of which will involve killing). An alternative way to look at is that the XP reward for getting through the area (needing to kill those beetles) and exploring the dungeon is just delayed until you complete the objective. This has been argued before: Quest does not equal objective (In one vid, Adam killed the ogre before getting the quest from the farmer and still got the xp) XP is abstracted - you don't get it for every action - 'firing and hitting that tree' should help you learn archery too but this isn't a simulation. You get the xp for the objectives, not every kill, just try to live with it

Edit: it created a new post instead of editing - see below

You can craft chocolate biscuits!! *ahem* sorry, got excited about that for some reason

So it's not just me then

A perfect example why Sacred is probably a dead franchise as of Sacred 3. A RPG game that is combat focused with almost no progression is about as boring as watching paint dry. We are now comparing apples to oranges again.. but so is Gauntlet.. By Josh's logic.. Combat in Sacred 3 should be fun enough on it's own.. No need to bribe players with silly things like Item drops.. They should just enjoy stomping the **** out of stuff and call it a day. Don't like my decision? Don't buy the game. ^^But they'd have to make the combat fun first. Boring combat with no xp is still boring, Fun combat with no xp is still fun

Well, something in a book can break my immersion - tends to be the fault of bad writing or 4th-wall breaking stuff or just an "oh come on!" moment. 'Immersion' in a story/game is a deep focus (in my usage of the word) - the forgetting of the outside world and the total involvement in the thing I'm focussing on. Having said that - the animations will in no way break my immersion.

^In what way is it 'basically turn based anyway'? Unlike BG, they're not going on 6s turns. (Even then that was only approximating turn-based). This is actually real-time - would require a major overhaul to make the monsters and NPCs act by turns. Pause every few seconds if you want (I probably will at first) - but there'll be no turn-based options. There was a similar auto-pause setting in BG - there may be one in PoE

Well - "It isn't like" suggests no similarity, whereas "It's almost like" is a common colloquial introduction of something that is similar but acknowledged to not be exactly alike. Taking things literally isn't the way a lot of communication is intended. I think Lephy's example in this point is illustrative of the kind of disconnect he wants (or rather combination he doesn't want). Similes and Metaphors are a part of communication and can and do support a point - the problem lies when people argue the simile/metaphor rather than the point it's trying to illustrate. Sure, figurative language *could* be taken out and leave the point intact ... but it'd be less fun to talk in that world.

Either you backed a tier that included beta access ($110 and up I believe) or you bought the beta access add-on (Not all backers get it)

1366x768 or 1600x1200 ... I thought that's what the thread was going to be about As for the other kind of dimensions - wouldn't bother me if there weren't any but might be cool to see what Obs came up with in this setting. Now that'd be an interesting interpretationary journey - those animancers and their crazy experiments

yeah, but then the beetles get a disengagement attack and the mage drops anyway. If he would have dealt with the problem as soon as it presented himself, he likely could have brushed off the blow. True - that comes down to 'don't rush everyone forward' - mage should be on 'runaway alert' with the melee characters intercepting. But I guess it comes down to how many HP (SP? - Stamina Points?) Aloth had in the first place and how hard the beetles hit. (Or was it mostly the poison damage draining him quickly? - I've only watched it once).

"Haste: Sponsored by Nike" ... or not - familiar icons work for me, though equally I won't complain if they're new. yeah, but then the beetles get a disengagement attack and the mage drops anyway.

I went with the highest tier I could afford ... which also happened to be the lowest tier (If this had happened a couple of years earlier or later, I'd probably have gone higher) But I get the game so I'm happy

That looks great

Just got to watch this. Love it! Spells are looking a lot better since the 'gameplay teaser' trailer, especially magical-missile (or wotsitsname) and fireball. Fights look great - note to self: Beware the beetles! - and glad that 'select-all'->'fight'->beetles isn't the go-to tactic. Can't wait to spend an hour or 2 with that character creation Agree that some of the writing on-screen (not in dialogue window) was hard to read (though I tried not to read most of it) - should stay up a little longer at least. Overall looks exactly like I want it to