Humodour

Why are these three games intellectually and culturally valuable? Giving them the labels without explanation makes those labels as meaningless as "awesome" or "crap". If that's what you wanted you only had to say! :D Deus Ex taps into a host of historical conspiracy theories and is a classic example of both the spy genre and the conspiracy genre. What makes it particularly important is that it is one of the first computer games to tap these genres effectively in this form. These things essentially make it culturally meritorious. What makes it intellectually significant (and this is also part of the cultural appeal) is the finesse in which it covers various Western ideologies and philosophies, as well as the effectiveness of the moral and societal questions it raises for the responder. Also, it has a good plot and atmosphere, which, while basic traits of intellectual merit, should not be omitted. Deus Ex has artistic merit as a basic computer game, certainly, but what makes it stand out is its cultural/intellectual merit, to which few games can stand against. I could say similar for Torment (philosophical/intellectual merit, surrealism and plot) and Fallout (historical, cultural and aesthetic merit). Well there's little point using the term art to imply something is important or valuable, or not important or not valuable valuable. That is, there's no point using art as a tautology, that just makes the word essentially useless. If we accept that the medium of computer games will always produce some form of art (I certainly consider games a form of art), then patterns in human language dictate we use the word art more sparingly; for paragons of the medium rather than anything and everything. I for one will continue to use the word art to imply something positive about a work. Art doesn't have feelings, but some art definitely is bad, and to be honest not worth the title of art. I'm not going to shed tears because bad art doesn't get called art. Certainly, the word art alone is fairly ambiguous, which is why I brought up culture worth, aesthetic worth, etc in art. This is far more descriptive. For more information, wikipedia has a fairly decent article on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art#Characteristics That would rule out a lot of computer games. I can also think of counter-examples outside the field of gaming. It's a definition that is too narrow. Semi-true. Intent is certainly important but it isn't the only factor. Message conveyed, responder's opinion, cultural significance, intellectual stimulation... these all help define whether or not something is art. Consider fractals for example. One would generally say they are not made with intent, yet are inherently beautiful and many would call them art. Similarly photography is an art-form, but many photos taken without the intent of being art become art. But those who see your work very likely would, and thus your opinion of your own work as art or not may become irrelevant.

Regarding weapons: For Fallout 3, Josh Sawyer was ranting (maybe a little harsh) about how weapons need to be generic. He wanted to move away from real-world weapons and weapon histories as in Fallout. I opposed this at the time, and I oppose it now. Making weapons 'generic' makes them dull and boring. HL2 suffered from this problem compared to HL1, for example (in fact, the entire world of HL2 generally did). Please make the weapons a) believable (as in, similar to today's weapons), b) have an origin - a local manufacturing plant, a stock-standard slaver weapon, the weapon of choice of paramilitary force X, whatever, c) have a history of use: flaws, average-ness (but still deadliness), a proneness for jamming or exploding, whatever. A history. A lot of the 'coolness' factor comes from these aspects - e.g. the energy weapons in Fallout 1 and 2 weren't just energy weapons - they had names and model numbers, and a history of use or prototype designs and a company that built them. Don't get me wrong - I like most of Josh's rants/opinions and agree with most of them, but this was one of the things that for some reason got me all riled up. I believe Josh was concerned about the in-game weapon use and choices not being realistic compared with modern day use because a select few fans were bitching about how gun x was represented in Fallout or something. Pfft. Realism is good, but fun comes first. It's not going to break the atmosphere if the security guard is holding a shotgun instead of a handgun, and that specific model of said shotgun has been out of use for 10 years now.

Dark Angel? Never watched that. The next-door guy I posted plays SGM Jonas "snake doctor" Blane, leader of a spec ops outfit in "The Unit". Good stuff. There's a Dark Angel episode where one of the genetically engineered soldiers (special ops/spy sort of thing) is deliberately designed to be unremarkable, unthreatening, unimportant, normal and forgettable; he's fat, has freckles and is thus essentially invisible. He also has an amazing memory and immense extrapolation powers (designed as an organic, mobile tactics division), but that's neither here nor there.

Visceris was in the army?

Of course. When I say that I'm an art-illiterate I'm obviously directing it at people who seem to be using a realist or objectivist view of what art is. It is simply my way of saying that I have no idea what art is until it affects me, and even then I have no idea what part of it is affecting me, so I am illiterate. This also places me very deeply in a relativist position on the subject of art. So you don't know what it is, but you'll know it when you see/feel it. Seems like you possess the same level of "art-literacy" as everyone else in this thread. After all, anyone can claim something is art, but surely the important part is why. Which is why I said games like Torment, Deus Ex and Fallout are intellectually and culturally valuable as art... compared to, say, Icewind Dale, which is aesthetically artistic but I would consider it's cultural and intellectual worth comparatively limited. Are you opposed to breaking art into groups, genres? I think it's silly to deny that some art is created purely 'because', some art is created because it is beautiful, some art is created because it is relevant (e.g. artworks about the Tiananmen Square Massacre), some art is created because it challenges the mind, some because it conveys a message (an apparent one, not the type one might try to look for or create in surreal or abstract art), etc. Many artworks overlap and are many of these things at once. Still, I think that there is nothing wrong with categorising, no? It's not like deeming Torment as intellectually valuable makes Icewind Dale any less artistic because it is instead aesthetically valuable, nor does it imply either game isn't buckets of fun.

Dark Angel?

Oh, and I have a feeling (or hope) that this game might employ aspects of chaos theory. In the sense that the player's actions as a spy, while might be intended to produce one outcome, in fact produce another. I hope our actions and there consequences in this game a) exist, b) aren't fully predictable (I hope it isn't black and white as in: good causes good outcomes, bad causes bad ones). I believe the idea of a bungling secret agent who's not yet a good spy, but means well and is trying to stop a conspiracy is particularly attractive as a plot if said secret agent isn't all powerful; if even though he's super-stealthy, super-strong, super-persuasive, still isn't god, and thus can make mistakes, can make things worse. Hmm I'm failing to convey my idea. Essentially I think that this game could be like Syriana (haven't seen it) in the sense that while Thorton might certainly be a super spy at some point in the game, that doesn't make him supreme arbiter of justice, or saviour of the world. Obsidian will hopefully design the game such that whilst Thorton might be extremely skilled, things pull together more though luck and (possibly unintentional) exploitation of flaws in the enemy's plans than because Thorton is just "really really good". I'm thinking anti-hero kind of stuff. Like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-hero Kind of like the heros in the novels Colony and Incompetence by one of the makers of Red Dwarf.

It didn't even mention NOLF. "Deus Ex is the only spy thriller" pfft. Sure, NOLF might be more of a game version of Get Smart than James Bond, but it still deserves a mention! I noticed there's a screenshot of an Arab terrorist. Hopefully this game approaches Arabs and Muslims from a logical standpoint (i.e. they're also humans, the majority aren't terrorists) but hopefully it also isn't afraid to be realistic (some of them are fanatical terrorists, the Middle East is an unstable and less developed region, and the atmosphere of religious/minority intolerance in some Middle Eastern countries is thick enough to cut with a knife - consider, say, Iran and the statements its president makes). To be honest I hope this game isn't a) a propaganda piece about terrorism and the greatness of America b) lefty politically correct garbage that's afraid to portray any Arabs or Muslims in a negative light, but completely willing to degrade and criticise American and/or Western culture (for example, the The Last Enemy) Deus Ex took a refreshing approach to the above matter. It managed to be sufficiently theoretical about the world's future, yet also make points relevant to today's society. Essentially, this game's proximity to today's timeline, and it's apparent focus on current world events concerns me. The only way it can pull something like that off is if something sufficiently big and realistic has happened since today (2008) to make the world sufficiently theoretical (that is: different) rather than a lame contemporary social commentary (in favour of whatever ideology). Anyway, it answers a few questions that have been floating around these boards.

I only bought PS:T because I realised it was by the same people that made Baldur's Gate (or so I thought at the time). I played it for a bit and then dumped it. I think I then tried it again a week later, because I didn't want to waste money and was too lazy to return it. That time it stuck and I've considered it one of the best games ever since. The same happened with Deus Ex. The only reason I didn't return it was because the store was closed that day. Again, one of my favourite games of all time.

"pointing out the name isn't Nazi, but Nationalist Socialist Workers Party" And the German nickname for that is... 'Nazi', short for "Nationalsozialistische deutsche Arbeiter-Partei", National Socialist German Workers Party. HAHAHA. This guy is a ****head. He knows full well they are Hitler/Nazi supporters. He gives Christians a bad name. "Meshes well with his beliefs" pfeh.

No, I would be Awesomon. And I wouldn't be a stupid yellow rat, either. I'd be a miniature black hole. My attacks would be swallow and time dilation, and I would destroy every puny pokemon every invented, because I am awesome.

Dude, read the actual page I linked to. Those a real people, not 4chan. 4chan just put the big red text at the top. I'll quote for you: That's from here: http://z9.invisionfree.com/Pokeclipse/inde...p?showtopic=314 Another guy from the one I linked earlier:

Go back to your pokemon board. Oh... haha 4chan has hacked it since I last visited.

This thread is hilarious. The Handmaiden was similarly creepy, but I'm guessing less so than Mical.

Good luck, mate!

Is Congress democratically elected?

Tigranes, I have to ask - what's your avatar about? I love Dugongs.

As long as Hilary or Obama wins America I will be happy. Or less sad. Do we know whether Hil/Ob are winning compared to Mc/Bush's type, or is all the competition so far about who will lead if elected? TBH I think America's system is pathetic. A cult of personality designed to waste exorbitant amounts of money whilst keeping the proles occupied. Maybe?

Haha, this thread is full of epic fail.

If we're going to go that far Aries we might as well just pick an IP. Planescape was a good setting for Torment, but it wasn't the only setting that would have worked. Think about universes like Anachronox, Farscape, Andromeda... space opera settings work great. I guess you'd essentially call Torment a planes opera. Um yeah, so I think my point is that Faerun isn't so good because it's less of a 'space' opera setting.

Whoops yeah the figures if 90% of email traffic, not net traffic. OK, that makes me have a little more faith in humanity (damn spammers). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_(electronic)#E-mail_spam

Yeah, that's a good point. I've heard sad stories about people dying in fires as they sleep, so I at least know I am safe this way. taks: yeah tell me about it. Not only is it a loud noise, but the pitch and volume are deliberately modulated to burst ear drums I swear; it's one of the most unbearable noises possible.

I've heard that as much as 90% of internet traffic is spam, as well, which is a shame.

You said Cylons don't age, yet Tigh has (I think). There's a flashback of him and Adama when they were younger, remember?