Bester

Lol. We have evidence but don't show for you. I think they talking about these facebook fake accounts where brave Russian warrior's post photos of very secret operations in Ukraine, this fat trolling cause nice ****storm in Russian pro-West media, if Pentagon repeat this nonsense this is become most epic trolling evar. But if seriously this is not important really... Because non-Russian meteo satellite suddenly give video evidence how Ukrainian Army launch "Buk" missile and shot down Boening. We take big amounts of popcorn and await reaction of "international" community. http://youtu.be/sdqIDYnSNq8 Lol, obvious Arma footage. After ukrainians got discovered that their SBU was making fake videos, they decided to make an obvious fake for their enemy to discredit them as well. But they're still not even trying, I mean arma footage, come on. Nobody is going to comment on that fake, don't hold your breath, nobody is that stupid.

Oh, Human Rights Watch: [Kiev's] Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians Lol, no ****, huh? After half a year, they started recognizing that it's happening. Wonderful, maybe when they invent a time machine they'll actually be effective at reporting atrocities.

Kiev army on the right. Nice treating of civilians.

Ukranda is confirmed to be a third world country. This is exactly why I hate slavs. >Some footage shot at the scene appears to show one militant taking a ring and putting it in a paper bag. And this is why I hate press. First of all, show me that footage if you have it. Second of all, gathering things and putting them in a bag is exactly how you treat a scene. You need to gather a thing first in order to give it back to the relatives. Got to love how they can't openly accuse anyone, but do their best to imply an idea because they're journalists and it's their job not to be objective.

Whatever gave you that idea? You don't know where the missile was launched from, nobody does, it could've been launched from anywhere. There is also a version of air to air missile. Nobody knows anything at this stage.

>may have originated >could have been sent back Heh, proofs of steel. And now this: Donetsk Commander Khodakovsky Denies Telling Media Militia Had Buk Missiles During MH17 Crash Khodakovsky denied having told Reuters that militia forces possessed Buk missiles when the Malaysia airliner crashed in the region, RT television channel reported Thursday. "We were discussing theories but one simple phrase was cutting throughout like a red line that I do not have the information on militia possessing such kind of a weapon," Khodakovsky said in an interview with RT, or Russia Today. Reuters is known for occasional screw ups.

Gromnir, come on. 1- your source is not any more reliable than mine. IHS Jane's is not originally a source, somebody who got printed on Janes is the source, but we don't know who. Where did he serve, did he operate buks, where did he get his information from? For example, it's entirely possible that a guy served in a unit that had buks, but didn't operate one. Anyway, Janes provided more or less the same info as my source, except for a slight difference between 32 and 25km. Not that significant in our discussion anyway. I might as well concede that it's 32 since it changes nothing. 2- your source doesn't say how much time it takes to lock on target and fire. You assume it's fast, but your assumption is based on nothing. My source says it takes 1-2 minutes because of bad controls. 3- we don't know if the rebels could've done it simply because we don't even know if their buk is even functioning or they have operators. So yeah, theoretically it could be them, but the chances aren't that high, because the moons would've had to align for them to do it. Kiev on the other hand had got 27 buks with radars around Donetsk the day the plane crashed. They've kept buks in the area since the rebels managed to get a damaged frogfoot. So, to recap. Rebels: maybe had a working buk, would've had to have been very lucky in placing the buk just under the Boeing, would've been very lucky to have actual buk operators Kiev: has buks, has operators, has motives, kills ~200 civilians daily and doesn't care The investigation, if it's led by Europe or Malaysia, might show who did it (if it's led by the US it's no good). Until then, it's just empty guesses. Good night.

Nah. Here, I drew on the map how much airspace a working radarless buk would cover. I placed it in the middle of nowhere so you can easily see it, but try imagining putting it somewhere else. First of all, in many places they're encircled, so pointing it in just one direction leaves the flanks and the back open. And second, the airspace covered is too tiny. Their few tanks and troops are extended over the whole length of the front line, so a single buk would basically be a drop in the ocean, they need at least a dozen of those to nullify enemy's air supremacy.

My source said 25km and not 32km, but not as a distance around buk, but as a distance directly FROM buk. If we convert it through Pythagoras's theorem at the Boeing's altitude, we get something like 20km. Anyway, you can clearly see the problem - it is that we don't know much. I admit it and I don't see why you need to jump to any conclusions. There will be an investigation after all.

You misunderstand. It's not supposed to replace hovercrafts, it's supposed to help steal dollars from the budget. Also, when I imagine this ww1-looking monstrosity dive nose deep into huge ocean waves, it makes me laugh so hard that I think building it was worth the effort.

The bottom line is, radarless Buk can only see targets at ~20km from itself and only when they're in front of it. 16 km per minute - means a lot of planes can enter buk's sight and quit it before the buk has had the time to lock on target. The plane would really have to enter buk's sight square in the middle and then fly straight towards the buk. I've talked to a guy in the .mil zone who served as a Buk commander in the ukrainian army and his words were that locking on target is no simple process and you need at least two trained operators, not just some afghan veterans who might've seen a buk from afar some 30 years ago. He said that although most the soviet hardware was designed in a way that even a monkey could operate it, the buk is an exception to the rule and you really need to have been trained on buk, even having general knowledge wouldn't be enough. Anyway, if what he says isn't entirely true, we don't know how much time it takes for buk to lock on target and fire, your source doesn't state it either. If it takes a minute, then those 20km in front of it are reduced to a small corridor of a few kilometers in width. My point is, we just don't know much. What we do know is that Ukraine gains a lot from this, and rebels gain nothing. They had no motivation to shoot at a commercial plane, and they were fully aware of the fact that there were a lot of commercial planes over Donetsk. And another thing - Ukrainian army damage all their equipment if they have to abandon it, so it's completely believable that the buk the rebels looted doesn't even work. And this is what they've been saying all along too.

Hah, your blind faith in the infallibility of the press made me think of this passage: The first account by the press described Napoleon’s arrival in France from the island of Elba: "The Corsican monster has landed in the Gulf of Jouan." The second announced, "The cannibal advances toward Grasse." The third reported, "The usurper has entered Grenoble." The fourth, "Bonaparte has occupied Lyon." The fifth, "Napoleon approaches Fontainebleau." And finally, the sixth, "His imperial majesty is expected today in his faithful Paris." ~ E. Tarle, Napoleon So, uh, anyway... I only opened this thread yesterday and I don't have the habit of swallowing press' cool stories a lot, so I don't know what it is that you think happened there. Let's get things straight. Here's what I know: - The elected president postponed signing of the trading association agreement, either because he wanted to get better conditions or because he decided to go with the Eurasian Economic Union, we'll probably never know which - Some people organized a political rally on the Maidan square that wasn't sanctioned. Despite the fact that it wasn't sanctioned, it was handled extremely carefully. In white civilized countries, those people would've been beaten by cops and taken away. - Those people claimed that they represented the whole country. They weren't. Here's the thing: * Ukraine is composed of three big parts - the western ukraine (which is formally Poland, basically, so its inhabitants often call themselves Hungarians and whatnot), * the central Ukraine (which is inhabitant by actual Ukrainians) and * the Eastern Ukraine (which is inhabited by Russians). Russian is the most used language by far, it is almost always used in Central Ukraine and Eastern Ukraine. There's always been a big tension between Eastern Ukrainians and Western Ukrainians. Why? Because a lot of Western Ukranians have collaborated with Hitler during WW2 (most notably Khatyn massacre ). The Western Ukrainians also constantly vote for representatives who often say outrageous things like "we should make Ukrainian the only official language" or "we should assimilate violently all russian speaking citizens, they either become ukrainian or they become our enemy and are dealt with accordingly", things like that. Now, Maidan rally was largely composed of Western Ukrainians. - They provided themselves with weapons and started shooting at the police. In any white country, they would've been obliterated. Instead, Yukashenko disarmed ukrainian police. - After more and more police got shot, the police finally got their weapons back, but still weren't authorized to clear the Maidan square. - This resulted in Maidanese shooting at the police and the police shooting back, but neither could make any progress. With people dead at both sides. - During this complete chaos, the protesters managed to overthrow the legally elected president and appointed their own people, who IMMEDIATELY reverted the law that authorized people to use Russian language in their official dealings, documents, etc. - The eastern ukrainians had a party called "region party". Testimonies suggest that members of parliament from the region party were persecuted by the new authorigies, their families threatened, so a lot of them simply left the parliament for good. This way, the new authorities could pass any law they wanted and the eastern ukraine was completely excluded from the political processes. - Eastern Ukrainians were outraged and they thought that the new government is a genuine nazi government that is going to make Eastern Ukrainians into second rate citizens. A lot of them didn't even know ukrainian language and now had to read official mail, conduct court business etc in a language they didn't even know. - So they asked for federalization. The new Kiev government rejected it and branded eastern Ukrainians as russian spies and terrorists. This didn't exactly help, the eastern ukrainians got even more scared. - So they did exactly the same thing their western neighbors did a month earlier - they organized rallies, overthrew local authorities with the support of local police and appointed their own ministers, except they did it without spilling blood because local police was on their side in the first place. - Kiev still refused to have dialogue, refused to acknowledge the situation entirely and kept calling eastern ukrainians spies, terrorists, etc. - So the eastern ukrainians decided that if they can't participate in ukrainian political processes, they're just going to part ways with Ukraine. They organized a referendum and most people voted for separation from Ukraine. Now there's also a tricky part to this all. The new kiev government is pro-european, so western press is siding with kiev no matter what. Separatists are pro-russian, so western press is going to bash them whatever they do. This was also very visible when they organized the referendum. It was branded as a complete joke in the western press. However, nobody could deny that most people in the easterk ukraine were heavily against kiev, there were gigantic lines, people waited for 2-3-4 hours just to cast their vote and those huge lines were all very vocal and admitted on camera that they're voting for separation. And when the presidential elections happened, everyone in the west clapped, tears in their eyes, happy for the ukrainian people and their democracy. Nobody mentioned that there were overwhelming proof that the elections were falsified. Furthermore, nobody even mentioned that kiev didn't even deign opening polling places in the eastern ukraine. Ukraine elected a president without letting eastern ukrainians vote. Such democracy. Then there were months of civil war, during which the kiev government shelled cities and killed thousands of civilians, which they deny despite the fact that there are tons of videos on youtube with people torn apart by air strikes. And while this is happening, Russia is getting sanctions. Every day kiev kills ~200 people. Now your turn, tell me how the press said it happened!

The information in that article doesn't contradict what I said. The rebels don't have the radar, only the launcher. The Buk can theoretically operate without that radar, since the launcher has his own small radar, but as far as practical application of radarless Buk goes, I already described its big limitations. From your own source: Operating autonomously, the 9S35 will take 4 seconds to sweep a 120° sector The 9S35 Fire Dome provides a limited search and acquisition capability And this is exactly what I've said. Without the radar, it's almost useless. And I've yet to see anything that proves the notion that the rebels had the radar. There were pictures of the Buk taken by people on the street, but not a single picture or even a testimony of the radar has been spotted. They simply don't have one. If they had it, there would've been an absolute no-fly zone over Donetsk right now.

If the rebels for some reason decided not to use radar-guided SAMs so as not to somehow repeat the MH-17 incident or to discredit claims that they had an SA-11, and used infrared or SACLOS-guided MANPADS or other SHORAD instead, then it would be a bit difficult since anti-radiation missiles are dependent on the threat having a radiating emitter in order to guide to the target. They don't have radar guided missiles, or barely have any. They might have that Buk, but whether or not it functions is under question. Nevertheless, even if it does, they only have one unit and they don't have the radar platform it's supposed to come with. Buk on its own does have a small radar, but it can only "see" as far as 25 km from itself at 120 degrees in front of itself. So in order to see a target that's flying at 10km altitude, the target has to pass the Buk only a few kilometers away from it, and it should happen in front of the Buk too (and since target locking takes a while because controls are unusable **** from what I've read, it has to fly slowly lol). Considering their large and constantly shifting front line, having 1 Buk and hoping to see an enemy plane fly just over that Buk is like hoping for a miracle. If their only buk does work, that is. They're bringing down frogfoots with heat seeking missiles like the ones launched by Igla. Here's the radar the Buk is supposed to work in tandem with.

Mass media is just government's tool to form public opinion. Lot of people think mass media is supposed to report "the truth". Let's hug and laugh into their face.

Romania is aligned politically and economically with the EU. What a joy.

The rebels have some hot chicks, heh. I've seen pics with her before, but now a video surfaced. Funnily enough, she says that a military craft hid behind a commercial airplane... in JUNE. Heh. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKKoKmUtQXE

Its horrific and must be very hurtful for the relatives. It also highlight the complete disregard the separatists have around basic human decency when it comes to these types of disasters and how you treat the bodies of loved ones. Do you know anyone who was on the plane? It's horrific how you're ready to believe anything. There is no proof, furthermore there will be no proof. The media will forget about those claims, but the disgust will remain. It's a textbook smear campaign. Now, let me give you an example of things you should believe, with proof. I hope you can spot the difference and adjust your trust-meter accordingly. Object Name : TOPSHOTS-UKRAINE-RUSSIA-POLITICS-CRISIS-CRASH Edit Status : XGTY Priority : 5 Subject Reference : IPTC:03010003:Disasters & Accidents:Transport accident:Air and space accident Category : DIS Supplemental Categories : Crisis,Transport accident,Air and space accident ???? : 20140725 ???? : 090459+0000 Special Instructions : TOPSHOTS Date Created : 20140714 Time Created : 143035+0000 Program : AFP Reporter Program version : 3.0.1507 Byline : DOMINIQUE FAGET Byline Title : STF City : Davydo-Mykilske State : - Country Code : UKR Country : UKRAINE Original Transmission Reference : 286 Headline : - Credits : AFP Source : AFP Caption : TOPSHOTS People pose on July 14, 2014 while standing on the wreckage of a Ukrainian AN-26 military transport plane after it was shot down by a missile in the village of Davydo-Mykilske, east of Lougansk near the Russian border. According to villagers of Davydo-Mykilske, many of whom rushed to the crash site on motorcycles and bikes to see if they could collect parts from the wreckage, the plane came down at around 12:30 (9:30 GMT). Residents say that at least some of the crew were able to parachute from the plane before it crashed, but they did not know where they landed. AFP PHOTO / DOMINIQUE FAGET Caption Writer : df/MRA

I'm afraid you misunderstand, I don't want Putin to lead us or to be part of Russia, I want someone of Putin's caliber (that is of Serbian nationality) to be in charge. In charge of leading you towards your european dream, yes. But we don't want poor and corrupt countries as dead weight in our cozy little european union, it's already tough as it is.

In the beginning of the twenty-first century, a secret project was commissioned in the Nikolayev military factory to develop a super secret tank that would possess the firepower and the super-weaponry way ahead of its time. In order to test the machine and not destroy Russia by accident, the tank was thrown into Donbass to subjugate the unruly rebels. After a while, all who knew of the existence of this incredible war machine were destroyed and the tank was forgotten... until now....

I always wondered and laughed. Why on earth all these little poor insignificant countries think we're going to take them in? There is absolutely no motivation to do something like that. Dream on, serbia.

Well, a man can dream.

I don't mean to state the obvious but Serbian volunteers actually fighting for the separatists is not a positive endorsement of Serbia . Sarex what is going on? I could sway your opinion in another direction, but that would involve too much typing from my part and then you reading for hours and looking at pictures and videos of blown up civilians who simply wanted federalism and the right to speak their native language. Let's not overburden ourselves.

There are Serbian volunteers in Donetsk's army, by the way, Sarex. You guys have never betrayed your friendship with Russia, not in WW2, not now, not ever. This is some really admirable stuff, just saying. And this is even despite that fact that you were betrayed by Yeltsin. How do you feel about that?

So, let's recap: The objective of this machine is to carry troops from water to the ground, in a fast and secure way. Now let's see what we can gather from the video: - it's super slow on water and on ground - it's super big, will be spotted instantly and will attract fire just because of its size (easy target, hard to miss) - and despite the two previous points, it's got no armor Wow! Can't wait to see some grilled <I'm going to cut out the word out of fear of moderators> in that thing. Seems to me that the real objective of this machine is to bury troops at sea.