Dream

So we're in agreement then that it's perfectly possible to have all three types of armor in a fantasy setting without compromising the aesthetics. And if that is the case why not include everything and make everyone happy.

Being able to abuse things is a function of how well the developers code the game, not whether a game is turn based or real time. On top of that TB games have their own unique abuses such as front loading single shot massive damage abilities with high costs and maximizing the speed stat (or simply save scumming until you go first) to ensure you kill your opponent before they can even react (HoMM with massive packs of black dragons comes to mind). In that very statement you use the word typically meaning not always meaning it's once again up to the developer how many options they want to place in the game, and not whether or not the game is RT or TB. If that was the case then every game would be turn based. The fact that RTwP exists is, by your logic, an admission that turn based combat is bad for this situation as well. You ever thought that RTwP was created to fix the issue inherent in TB games and not RT games? Once again that's entirely dependent on how well the developers code the AI. TB games can have **** AI and be full of bugs just like RT ones. Again, up to the developers. I wont disagree that it's easier to program AI for TB games, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to write good AI for RT games. You're all about challenge here, so why do you want to deny the developers the challenge of having to work hard to get good AI. Professionals, by and large, don't make mistakes. If a professional chess player misreads the board it's because he had an off day, or, more likely, because he wasn't able to react fast enough (which is the point of the timer). Do you honestly think NBA players have sub 100% FT percentages because their aim sucks? Even I can hit basket after basket with relative ease when it's just me on the court. If there's no pressure the skill ceiling for an activity is relatively low; perhaps your problem is you simply can't hit it.

Realistic Warcraft armor In fact, the majority of the early armor looks functional. Additionally, Skyrim had armor that ranged from the utterly mundane to this. Finally if you, as the ultimate arbiter of taste, deem it all right to have varying design aesthetics between different factions then there should be no problem with having the human nations running around in functionally realistic armor while the corrupt/evil/bat**** insane whatevers in PE roll around in crazy over the top outfits (ie. Reavers in Firefly). You misunderstood me. I was merely pointing out that, out of your posted examples, only Warhammer could be described as having a mix of "realistic armor, ostentatious but still reasonable armor, and the completely over the top stuff". Warcraft and Guild Wars, at least in my opinion, don't really employ realistic designs. Chaos Chosen are more monsters than humans (mutated and granted gifts from the dark gods). That's why they can actually use those hulking armours. I just linked a warcraft armor with a realistic design. Also pretty much everyone in the chaos army has ridiculous armor, whether they're chosen or not. If you look through the rest of that site the orcs, elves, and even empire have some pretty ludicrous and non-functional stuff (I mean, really?).

Realistic Warcraft armor In fact, the majority of the early armor looks functional. Additionally, Skyrim had armor that ranged from the utterly mundane to this. Finally if you, as the ultimate arbiter of taste, deem it all right to have varying design aesthetics between different factions then there should be no problem with having the human nations running around in functionally realistic armor while the corrupt/evil/bat**** insane whatevers in PE roll around in crazy over the top outfits (ie. Reavers in Firefly).

And why does only Warhammer qualify? Beside that if Warhammer does qualify then you admit it's possible to have both ludicrously over the top and functionally realistic armor in the same setting.

Why is it retarded though? Warcraft, Guild Wars, Warhammer (both 40k and fantasy), and plenty of other works have all effectively mixed realistic armor, ostentatious but still reasonable armor, and the completely over the top stuff (including stripperific armor) while still maintaining a coherent design aesthetic. If it truly bothers you that much then simply don't use those particular pieces of gear; it's a single player game after all. Also, you'd do well to remember that in PS:T Annah ran around in a hooker outfit while Vhailor looked like a bulldozer with limbs, and I doubt anyone would say that game would have benefited from those characters dressing "realistically." well, I just don't think it's logical or necessary to include stuff like that. It depends on execution and context. I agree it can be done so that it doesn't raise eyebrows or blood pressure - Warhammer is a good example. Yes, there's stuff I could live without and which I think could've been done better. But hey, if the chaos mage has a magical shield, I guess she can wear that skull bikini. Another one I can think of are the new Berserk films. While some of the armour they designed looks a bit odd next to the straight up historical ones, it all kind of fits. The point the whole time was - you can do a walking buldozer armour, you can do sexy evil looking armour, and you can do them all in a way that's believable, without spikes that would go through your temple if you lifted your arms. Well apparently we've finally come to an agreement because I don't really want armor that'd impale you when you lift your arms either. As for the logic and necessity behind it; people enjoy the stuff and this is a video game for people to have fun in.

Why not both?

Why is it retarded though? Warcraft, Guild Wars, Warhammer (both 40k and fantasy), and plenty of other works have all effectively mixed realistic armor, ostentatious but still reasonable armor, and the completely over the top stuff (including stripperific armor) while still maintaining a coherent design aesthetic. If it truly bothers you that much then simply don't use those particular pieces of gear; it's a single player game after all. Also, you'd do well to remember that in PS:T Annah ran around in a hooker outfit while Vhailor looked like a bulldozer with limbs, and I doubt anyone would say that game would have benefited from those characters dressing "realistically."

How are they going to be any different visually though? Yea, if this was Age of Empires or Total War that would make sense, but this is a fantasy game. Having the only change from level 1 to the final boss be your armor is called Adamantite Plate instead of Iron Plate with a different color tint is boring. Well, it can be a bother, I suppose. I mean, the design is unlikely to change terribly much, as most innovations granted by advanced materials would probably lead to a new category of armor (armor of comfort or command, for example, or armor of mobility, which were mechanically close to full/half plate in NWN/2, but visually distinct). That said, I would like some distinct visual, but Dragon Age really took it to the extreme, and it left me sometimes regretting upgrading because the new armor looked gaudy, or wondering how these ancient magical robes somehow look exactly like those for sale in Denerim. Maybe unique items will fall in this category - something we say in Fallout 3 and New Vegas - which some were visually different. Pretty much. Have the mass produced stuff be functional and realistic but have the unique things at the ends of dungeons or in dragon hoards or forged by Cromwell (or his equivalent) be unique and fantastic looking. Even then they could do a range of how crazy they make the unique things look from the fairly muted armor commissioned by some long dead legendary assassin to the rather out there armor of a demon lord. And what would the rogue/thief/whatever's progression look like? Leather to leather to leather? What about the casters'? Wool to silk?

How are they going to be any different visually though? Yea, if this was Age of Empires or Total War that would make sense, but this is a fantasy game. Having the only change from level 1 to the final boss be your armor is called Adamantite Plate instead of Iron Plate with a different color tint is boring.

Actually, I stated that only the higher end stuff should be crazy looking, but I can see how you might get confused. The earlier things you find should obviously be bland and boring; else there would be no sense of escalation, and no, going from plate mail to plate mail with gold inlay isn't my idea of improvement. On the other hand, you have just now (again) stated that you only want things the way you like them because compromise is apparently retarded.

Wow, another strawman. How unexpected. How is it a strawman? Practically every person who wants fantastic arms and armor has said the game should have both the realistic and the fantastic where as you and the others like you who don't like fantastic gear have stated it should not be in the game period. Maybe you should look up strawman as well while you're looking up subjective.

1) "cause they look cool" is subjective, many people would dispute this. Which is probably why everyone who wants fantastic armor and weapons is saying there should be everything in the game; both the mundane and the extraordinary. Apparently you're the one who doesn't understand what subjective means since you seem to want all the armor to look the way you want it to and damn what everyone else likes.

'Cause they look cool and don't exist in the real world. Additionally it's less spikes and massive shoulderpads and more the fact that having completely realistic and historically accurate armor is definitely not what fantasy is about.

no, no lets just stick with freidistic "bad-ass-macho" fantasies. After all, we play games to escape reality and fact what we are nothing in real world, so why do we have to be reminded of this by "realistic" concepts? "Look at this weapon - it's looks badass, this mean I'm badass, right? Am I baddass, mommy?". Pathetic. Well, actually, that pretty much is why people read/watch/play/whatever fantasy stories. They want to experience something outside the mundane, something extraordinary. If they wanted to experience something historically accurate they'd pick, oh I don't know, a historical fiction maybe. Fantasy stories are, by and large, an escapism. Fantasy "Fantasy films often have an element of magic, myth, wonder, escapism, and the extraordinary." As a side note, you seem a bit mad bro; you okay?

And video games are made to have fun in, not to be medieval life simulators. If i wanted to stare at realistic weapons all day I'd read a history textbook. Hells yeah. God forbid you'd actually be forced to learn about stuff, that'd kill you for sure. Let's just have some retarded fun with spikes and skulls all over! CODPIECES WITH SKULLS NAO! Seriously? This isn't reading rainbow; it's a video game. I went to college to learn stuff.

And video games are made to have fun in, not to be medieval life simulators. If i wanted to stare at realistic weapons all day I'd read a history textbook.

How am I putting words into your mouth? You literally said that RT games are less challenging because designers have to limit options to account for people having to multitask: "Real time has to actually limit options to account for all the multitasking going on. A player can only do so much in a moment. So they have to ultimately limit combat in RTS games and the like." You then proceeded to state that RTwP does not having any multitasking: "Of course RTwP gives you a pause so you get less options/depth but also don't have to multitask as much because you can pause anytime." I simply pointed out how those two statements are contradictory because it would make no sense for a designer to take out options when there is no multitasking if the reason to take out options in the first place is to account for multitasking (as YOU said). As for the chess example; I didn't twist anything. The reality is at the upper echelons of any activity (not just chess) you do not perform better with more time. More time generally translates to being able to consider more strategies, but if you're good enough you'll be able to arrive at best strategy every time. When you reach that point the only challenge left to you is to see how fast you can arrive at the best strategy; which is why saying TB is inherently more skillful is just moronic. Finally, the fact that you're trying to resort to the old "well you disagree with me so you must be a troll" cliche is rather telling about who's winning the argument. It's not my fault you're incapable of going one paragraph without contradicting yourself. I'd hate to see how you'd perform in a real time debate as opposed to turn based like on these forums.

None of those scream bad ass. When I pick up some an awesome new sword I want to think "Sweet, this looks sick!" not "Oh yay, another rapier; at least it has 1 more damage than the last one." On top of that you can barely tell the difference between these weapons as is, and when you account for how small the characters will be ingame all those weapons will look identical. Personally, I'd prefer to have my look change at some point between the tutorial and the final boss.

No doubt. I still remember playing the **** out of HoMM2 when I was a kid. It's just saying one is inherently more challenging than the other is just silly.

So what, by your definition, wouldn't be lazy design? Having everything look exactly the same? Because that's what would happen if the designers went for functional realism. Going back to cars all we'd have would be a sea of Corollas and Lancers with the high end ones only being distinguished by their Nos decals (your diamonds and gold accents).

You're wrong. Real time has to actually limit options to account for all the multitasking going on. A player can only do so much in a moment. So they have to ultimately limit combat in RTS games and the like. Challenge only increases in the sense that you have to multitask. Of course RTwP gives you a pause so you get less options/depth but also don't have to multitask as much because you can pause anytime. Turn based has more options and depth to it because it's not happening in real time and the player has more time to pick and choose what he wants to do. Also the player can't just move out of a mob's range and run around in circles while the other party members attack it. There's quite a few limitations to RTwP. Here's an example I think you'll understand. Think of the difference between playing chess with a 5-10 second per move timer and without a timer where you have as much time to think of as possible. The level of play is going to be a lot lower for someone playing a blitz game than a game where they can actually fully think and plan their turns. If the designers choose to limit options to account for multitasking that's their choice, not an inherent deficit of RT games. By your own admission RT games can have more challenge since if those options aren't limited then you have to account for everything you do in turn based games while also having to deal with the challenges of real time. If a player is skilled enough then they can still process all their options in real time and choose the best course of action, which is where the extra challenge comes from. Simply because you feel that being forced to think on your feet isn't a "real" challenge doesn't make it so. Additionally, again by your own admission, since RTwP games allow you to pause combat at anytime and remove the need to think on your feet then it makes no sense for the designers to limit options for lesser skilled players. As for your running in a circle example; that's an issue of poor AI, and one which can be present in any game type. Finally, regarding your chess example, it supports my point more than yours. Professional chess is played with a time limit precisely because at that point the only way to distinguish yourself skill wise is by being able to react faster than your opponent. Pretty much all the top players are equal when it comes to what strategies and tactics they know. If the games had no time limits they would simply last until one player made a mistake due to exhaustion, which is no different then making a mistake due to not being able to think on your feet fast enough.

That Lambo costs more than twice as much as a GT-R and is worse in every performance category except for top speed (where it beats it by single digit numbers), and if you put under 10g into the GT-R it'll blow past that. As for the things like weak points, hammer heads being too large, etc. those can all be explained away by simply saying "magic fixes it" since all the fancy top end gear is going to be magical in nature. How does Drizz't's scimitar give you better defense stats? How does the Flail of Ages even work; wouldn't 5 heads be way too cumbersome? What about Dak'kon's zerth blade; that thing is just bananas! All of this is explained by magic makes it work.

Yes, but I always find realism kind of satisfying and absurdity kind of annoying when I see it, even in a Fantasy RPG. A touch of realism lends a feeling of authenticity to everything, whereas a hero wielding a JRPG-style sword that is as big as his entire body just provokes amusement or eye-rolling. That doesn't mean realism is always the best option. If it were, I suppose our adventuring career might amount to getting stabbed by the first enemy we encounter, getting taken out of the fight by the wound and dying of an infection a few days later or some such. Still, I'm kind of hoping that outside of the blatant fantasy aspects, the majority of the game will have a realistic feel to it. Well, as evidenced by the fact that the rule of cool exists, you're in the minority. Also, maybe in the P:E universe humanoids have naturally denser muscles and as such are able to wield big ass swords with ease. Or metal is less dense.

And every one of those ornamental weapons that Dronios linked also fulfill all the basic functions. Lambos have almost no redeeming qualities outside of looks (their mileage is awful, sitting in them is like being in a torture rack, and they get beaten by cars that cost 1/4 to 1/2 as much). Hell, the newest one (Aventador) doesn't even put it's power down well since the transmission is **** and the breaks are awful. Despite all that people still buy and use them 'cause they look awesome, and this is in the real world. In a fantasy world where magic enchantments could offset a lot of the detriments of "ornamental" weapons and armor (who cares if a weapon is balanced like **** if it weighs nothing) it is even more likely that super expensive things would look amazing.