Dream
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Bunch of colorful pixels on 640*480 screen is very abstract, that's why it does't stand out as much as 3D models today. Compared to nowadays, these are pretty mundane. Normal-sized weapons and fully-covered body with armor for warriors. So what's your point? That you'd be fine if P:E looked like BG? Me, too.
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Should P:E have time limits?
Dream replied to Death Machine Miyagi's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
For those that want time limits why not just self enforce them? If it bothers you so much that you're allowed to explore while the world is exploding (or whatever) then don't. It's a role playing game after all; play the role of someone pressed for time and let those of us who like to explore do that. -
No, it can't. Well, maybe for you it can. Just because you have a redicolously high tolerance to sour, don't persume to season food heavily and claim everyone should find it tasty and it's not sour. It is sour. It's just that your tounge has whitered to nothing so you can't tell anymore The fact that the Planescape campaign setting, Sucker Punch, the Cthulhu mythos, Bayonetta, etc. exist is indicative that realism is not the end all be all of immersion for everyone. However this is beside the point since no one is actually asking for P:E to take place in Limbo. Big pauldrons, skin tight thief outfits, and boob plates. Hell even the plate/chain is pretty damn form fitting. So you want it to be made to appeal to the most people possible? I hear COD sells well.
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We are in agreement if your suggestion is that the game be largely realistic, but feature some more elaborate gear. My point was simply that the debate is not all or nothing and your post certainly expressed it as such. The armour in question is, realistic, it wouldn't be easy to wear(granted you picked a very outlandish set), but it looks to be made out of metal, It has rivets, joints and designs that actually look like they could be crafted onto armour, and the design of it would provide for adequate protection and the diversion of kinetic energy. Were the fantasy comes in is in its size and the fact that the stomach is so inflated, but Smough could be a pretty fat guy underneath that armour who knows? Dark Souls, is a fantasy game to be sure, but it is refreshingly realistic fantasy when compared to say this... That's outfit's certainly something. But yes, having all the gear be extravagant and over the top would be excessive, but at the same time everything being strictly functional and realistic would get old quick. Ideally, for me, the initial gear should resemble what one might find in the real world and as you progress there should be magical versions of those same designs, but at the same time one should be able to stumble upon fantastically designed armor (worn by demon lords, within dragon hoards, etc.). This way if people like realism they can use the enchanted armor that looks like the regular stuff while the people that don't care for realism as much will have some cool looking **** to look forward to (and it's not like this game is multiplayer so the realists will never have to look at that armor if they don't want to). At the same time I don't see much of an issue with things like boob plates (since it'd be impossible to tell whether a 1 inch avatar in full plate is male or female otherwise) and sexy outfits for the rogues/mages (and here again they can include both practical and sexy leather/cloth outfits). But if boobs plates really bother people that much I'm sure they could add a toggle for it (they did get 3 million more than they intended after all, and it's safe to assume at least some percentage of those backers likes boob plates).
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I'd say it's about as hard to argue that they loved those games because of the armour & weapon designs present therein (at least if you're only basing that on an extrapolation - which is, after all, just a guess). The games have been out for over a dozen years. If the fans truly despised the armor and weapon designs there'd have been more than the random forum thread here and there about the subject (hell, ME3 was only out for a few days before we found out how the fan base felt about that train wreck). The absence of complaining points to (but doesn't prove) that either people liked the designs or at best (for the realism argument) weren't bothered by them. Yea, I think we agreed back then. I doubt anyone actually wants ALL the armor to be improbable and over the top (hard to appreciate a fancy meal if that's all you eat), but at the same time having everything look virtually the same just shaded differently for varying metals would be a little boring. For me something in the middle like a mix of BG and PST would be ideal (and what this game was advertised as). Normal sized human wearing it; there is no skin showing. Here's another armor set from the same boss (well, dual boss).
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Except the people I'm arguing with do want it to be entirely one way; theirs. I've said multiple times that ideally P:E would have a mix of everything (Skyrim did this well with normal looking armor at the onset and Daedric armor near the end, same for D3), but the people arguing here don't want any unrealistic armor in it P:E all and want everything to look strictly functional. Additionally, since people brought it up, Dark souls was a good example of this since it had some armor that was realistic and some that was decidedly not (and these aren't even some of the craziest pieces in it). As for realism being an important part of good writing; that's not really true. I felt immersed in and greatly enjoyed Bayonetta, and that game was about as far from realistic as you can get (physics had two settings in it, barely there and off). Besides, I'm hardly arguing for the game to take place in Limbo; just that it has similar designs to the IE games (boob plates, big armor, sexy outfits for the thieves and mages, and some of the late game weapons and armor being rather extravagant such as Vhailor's look or Carsomyr). Bayonetta is an action game with intentionally absurd gear designs, not a story focused crpg so thats a bad comparison...As a big Dark Souls player, let me tell you that the armor is realistic, it's just that not all of the designs are historically based. Certain weapons are over-sized for game play purposes and magic in the world gives rise to more outlandish gear yes,but gear is still largely functional and largely historically based even if it deviates a little from there, and that's really all I ask. Once again you are bringing the two sides of this arguments into two polar extremes. These are fantasy games were talking about, of course some of the gear is going to look strange, but does it look like something that could reasonably be crafted with tools available in that world? Could you image the items on a real person in the real world? That is realistic fantasy. We are not talking about final fantasy vs a medieval combat sim here, we are talking about IE games (yes boob plates, big armor, sexy outfits and all) vs goofy, cartoonish, oversized, frat-paddle shaped FANTASEH BLADZ. What exactly are you arguing here? From the very beginning I've said I'd like the aesthetics to be similar to those in the IE games (hell, I said it in the very post you quoted), but people disagreed with me saying there's no proof that people actually liked the aesthetics of the IE games. You seem to agree with me while telling me I'm pushing this argument toward extremes; I don't want this to be Bayonetta 2 (I want Bayonetta 2 to be Bayonetta 2), but at the same time I don't want it to be Medieval: Total War the RPG. Ideally it should be something in the middle (like, gasp, BG or PST). As for Dark Souls, how is THIS functional?
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Except the people I'm arguing with do want it to be entirely one way; theirs. I've said multiple times that ideally P:E would have a mix of everything (Skyrim did this well with normal looking armor at the onset and Daedric armor near the end, same for D3), but the people arguing here don't want any unrealistic armor in it P:E all and want everything to look strictly functional. Additionally, since people brought it up, Dark souls was a good example of this since it had some armor that was realistic and some that was decidedly not (and these aren't even some of the craziest pieces in it). As for realism being an important part of good writing; that's not really true. I felt immersed in and greatly enjoyed Bayonetta, and that game was about as far from realistic as you can get (physics had two settings in it, barely there and off). Besides, I'm hardly arguing for the game to take place in Limbo; just that it has similar designs to the IE games (boob plates, big armor, sexy outfits for the thieves and mages, and some of the late game weapons and armor being rather extravagant such as Vhailor's look or Carsomyr).
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Being unique and eclectic doesn't suddenly make it so you can wear crazy looking armor comfortably; basic physics like it being bad when a pauldron spike occupies the same space as your head when you raise your arm still exist. The fact that the Planescape setting was created and is like is kind of the whole point of the argument that realism isn't THAT important. Because I can enjoy a game with an aesthetic I may not like means I have no valid arguments? You enjoyed PS:T (I'm assuming) so I guess you have no valid arguments either? Immersion is tied to a million things, and, as Planescape shows, a realistic world does not have to be one of those. If written well anything under the sun can be immersive. Immersion and believability may mostly tied to realism for YOU, but it sure as **** isn't for me (and for all the Planescape fans either). If that is the case, however, may I suggest staying away from fantasy games and trying out something like this; it's a lot more realistic. BG had boob plates, huge pauldrons, and all the female outfits were skin tight. If that's what you feel is normal then cool, lets do that for Project: Eternity. You liked LotR's armor designs? Me, too.
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And how existance of guns and soul-based magic put P:E in line with Planescape's eclectic craziness (in a good sence)? My idea of a proper discussion is one where opponents basing their statements on facts and logical conclusions, not empty rethorics of "I know what majority want". And I will repeat my previous question: do you believe that game will be bad because of higher than normal amount of common sense and better designed armor? PS:T still had gravity, blades and spikes in it were still sharp, and unwieldy **** would have still been unwieldy. If one were to make a "realistic" planescape game then armor there would still have to be functional despite it's crazy setting. However, this was not the case in PS:T and as far as I can tell the fans didn't really have a problem with that. Like I said earlier you can't really argue immersion or taste because those things are highly subjective. The only real argument you can have is about what the intended audience of Project: Eternity would like. Seeing as we can't exactly poll all 75k backers we have to extrapolate based on the data we have. This poll, for instance, shows that the games that most brought people here were PS:T, followed by BG, and followed further by "other or multiples" with most of those answers being BG + PS:T. That finding is in line with the fact that P:E was directly advertised as being a modern Infinity Engine game. Now, is it possible that the majority of the fans of those games loved them enough to invest in a spiritual successor while at the same time hating the armor choices they made (while never really complaining about it, despite the internet loving to bitch)? Sure, but it's not very likely. As for realistic armor making games bad: no because aesthetics are not the end all be all of what makes a game good. For me as long as a game has solid game play and good writing then I'll likely enjoy it, but having a look that I like certainly doesn't hurt the experience (which brings us back to what would the average backer of P:E prefer; realism or surrealism, form or function).There have been several great games that had a realistic and functional design aesthetics, but Project: Eternity wasn't advertised as a successor to those games. You realize that works both ways. You have literally zero proof that fans of the IE games would have liked them more if they had realistic armor. Look at it this way; if you are right and most don't care then it wont matter if the armor is unrealistic. However, if people actually did like the looks of the armor in those games than changing to a strictly realistic design aesthetic would diminish the experience for them. Sure it's possible all those fans secretly despised the armor choices, but it's a bit hard to argue that position.
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And Planescape is clearly a typical high fantasy setting. Of course. Would you like to have sci-fi costumes in P:E because they look good in Star Trek? If you don't care about unrealistic armors and concept why do you protecting them so vigorously? Do you belive that game will be bad becouse of highter than normal amount of common sence and better designed armor? Obsidian has said they don't want to make P:E typical high fantasy either (as evidenced by guns, the whole soul mechanic, etc.). As for why I'm defending them; because this is a discussion, or is your idea of a proper discussion one where everyone agrees with you so you can stroke your ego and feel smart?
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And we all know Project Eternity's trying to appeal to the mainstream masses. True, to an extent, but the minority that it's designed to appeal to is "fans of Infinity Engine games," and not "fans of medieval life simulators." IWD, PST, and BG were hardly realistic in their depictions of armor, and the closest they came to realism included big pauldrons, boob plates, and skin tight everything. In fact, when BG2 made the armor look a little more realistic the community responded by making mods to restore the old BG1 look and 1pp is now one of the most popular mods out there for the game. You can't say that P:E is made to appeal to the minority like there is only one minority. The reality is fans of the IE games don't care that much for realism as evidenced by the fact that the IE games are not all that realistic. Not once on any forum (even here where realism is some sacred thing) have I heard anyone say "Well I really liked BG/IWD/PS:T, but I just couldn't get into them because the armor designs ripped me right out of the experience." Sorry to say it but you're the (very vocal) minority of a minority and the majority of us just like cool **** and don't really care if it's practical or not. Two of those pictures are from PST, by far the most "fantastical" of the bunch, and one of them is from a mod. PST had a really good aesthetic but their 3D art was pretty damn ugly. BG's paperdolls weren't terribly attractive either, especially the more elaborate helmets. That's kinda the point of the PST pictures; you can have fantastical armor designs without a game being ruined forever. Also, 1pp is a mod that puts BG1's paper dolls into BG2 (in other words: no fan art). If anything the fact that it's such a popular mod is indicative of the community preferring BG1's armor designs to BG2's (which were slightly more "realistic"). As for the art being ugly; that's called an opinion. I, for one, happened to like it, and so did many others.
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"Most of IE fans don't care about realistic armor concepts, therefore armor concepts should be retarded because *I* like it." Your logic is flawless as always. No, therefore Obsidian shouldn't worry about making armor that looks realistic and functional, just aesthetically pleasing and cool looking. If you feel as though anything that isn't realistic is retarded that's your issue. On top of that I've specifically stated that they should include a wide array of armor that's both mundane and fantastic so as to appeal to everyone's tastes; It's only the realism people who are demanding EVERYTHING be exactly as they like it. Nice try though.
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Should P:E have time limits?
Dream replied to Death Machine Miyagi's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
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Absolutely not. I can't possibly know what the community wants as the community wants many different things. That's why I never directly or indirectly said nor implied my preferences are indicative of the wants of the community. Only you have been making such broad assumptions. The argument in this thread is whether unrealistic armor should be in Project: Eternity or not. Since taste and immersion are highly subjective (for me it's good game play and writing that provides immersion; realism is pretty much a none-issue) the only real argument to have is what the majority of the community prefers. In that regard, all the evidence points to people, by and large, not caring if armor is unrealistic. If you have evidence to the contrary then feel free to present it and we can have a discussion about it. However, saying that unrealistic armor makes for bad video games is as an asinine a statement as saying romcoms are objectively better movies than action flicks; it's all a matter of taste.
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That does not mean such designs are what is ideal to fans of those games. I've been a fan of those games for many years but I've always been fervently against big paudrons, boob plates and skin tight everything. Also requesting a more "realistic" aesthetic =/= wanting a medieval life simulator. What a subsection of the community does isn't a representative of the wants of the whole community. Especially when it's the modding community. Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Again you assume people didn't like these games despite the armour design choices. Personal experience isn't a particularly valid source. Your opinion is not even the majority in this thread so I don't thinks it's wise to make that assumption. Besides, I too like "cool designs", I just don't think big pauldrons, boob plates or skin tight armour are cool. Instead I prefer practical designs that serve a functional purpose and accurately provide an insight into the culture and environment in which the armour was crafted. But what you like is representative of the community? 1pp is one of the few mods being included baseline in the enhanced edition rerelease of the game (which several of the original team members are working on). On top of that of all the reviews of the IE games (both fan and professional) no one has ever said that the armor designs were a detriment of those games (inb4 you post one random obscure review to try and prove me wrong); hell, I don't even remember anyone in this very thread saying that. Additionally, in this thread most of the posters either don't care if the armor looks unrealistic or would prefer to have the designers place more value in aesthetics than functionality. The only reason it seems like the realism crowd is larger than it is is because it's the same dozen or so guys circle jerking each other about the virtues of historical accuracy in a fantasy video game. Pretty much all the evidence points to IE fans not caring if armor looks unrealistic, but somehow you feel you represent the community?
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dp
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And we all know Project Eternity's trying to appeal to the mainstream masses. True, to an extent, but the minority that it's designed to appeal to is "fans of Infinity Engine games," and not "fans of medieval life simulators." IWD, PST, and BG were hardly realistic in their depictions of armor, and the closest they came to realism included big pauldrons, boob plates, and skin tight everything. In fact, when BG2 made the armor look a little more realistic the community responded by making mods to restore the old BG1 look and 1pp is now one of the most popular mods out there for the game. You can't say that P:E is made to appeal to the minority like there is only one minority. The reality is fans of the IE games don't care that much for realism as evidenced by the fact that the IE games are not all that realistic. Not once on any forum (even here where realism is some sacred thing) have I heard anyone say "Well I really liked BG/IWD/PS:T, but I just couldn't get into them because the armor designs ripped me right out of the experience." Sorry to say it but you're the (very vocal) minority of a minority and the majority of us just like cool **** and don't really care if it's practical or not. The LotR trilogy is one of the most well known high fantasy settings and it's costume and armour design are exceptionally practical and realistic (except for only 1 or 2 characters). Or are you telling me your imersion was broken the entire time because the armour designs weren't retarded enough? LotR has realistic armor? If anything it has a wide range of armor, both realistic and over the top (which is precisely what people who like crazy looking armor want; a mix of everything). Cake everyday would be boring, but so would salad; variety is the spice of life and what people prefer.
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Probably just a visual thing. It's stark and dramatic when filming stuff in mood lighting, so also by long association. But yeah....I personally like black (and grey, and dark blue), wear it a lot, but if black means evil, I must be more evil than the devil himself. Outside of that, while I like color in nature, for general clothes I usually like neutral or darker colors. I'm that boring. Plus it shows dirt less. 'Cause it's badass. *yawn* Sorry to break it to you, but most people like cool **** and don't really care if it's practical or not. Popular **** is popular for a reason.
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Probably just a visual thing. It's stark and dramatic when filming stuff in mood lighting, so also by long association. But yeah....I personally like black (and grey, and dark blue), wear it a lot, but if black means evil, I must be more evil than the devil himself. Outside of that, while I like color in nature, for general clothes I usually like neutral or darker colors. I'm that boring. Plus it shows dirt less. 'Cause it's badass.
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Character Expression
Dream replied to Osvir's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
To each his own then. Let's not let it get over our friendship, thought, having the portraits on the sidebar have "moods" depending on morale, health etc. etc. Story progression etc. etc? EDIT: Again, just slight subtle changes to the pictures, nothing marginal (keep it realistic to the character's appearance and shadowing etc. etc.). That idea I kind of like; something like the Doom guy (I think the later Might and magics also did this). -
Character Expression
Dream replied to Osvir's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
Except due to the uncanny valley it's gonna look awkward unless you're Blizzard or Crytek. -
You are hardly innocent of personal attacks buddy.
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How you even exist with that brain is beyond me. Exception that proves the rule is relevant when an exception is stated (Merlkir occasionally makes an intelligent post) which points to an implied rule (the majority of Merlkir's post are not intelligent). Also, to Trashman and Centurionofprix, our world (you know, the one we live in) is composed of I don't even know how many cultures and societies but that does not mean that every story told within the setting of Earth has to include Africa tribes, Ninjas, Cossacks, Nazis, Mexican Drug smugglers, Eskimos, free range chickens, oil tankers, Tazmanian devils, blue whales, and Pomeranians (although that would be one hell of a movie). Also, despite all that being present at the same time in our world, I tend to feel that Earth is a rather realistic and believable place. D&D provides the players with all the tools they need to tell any story they wish from the most mundane and ultra realistic to the most unreal and out there (Immortal Storm comes to mind). What a player wishes to do with that is entirely up to them (which is, again, the point of game).
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While a specific monster may not be part of a CAMPAIGN, it is part of the SETTING and D&D as a whole. So still suck for me. Soekaing of which, while JRPG's and WRPG's have some design preferences, excpetions prove the rule. Anime did give us some interesting armor designs. That's the whole point of D&D. They added everything into the rule books so that players could pick and choose what they wanted; thus appealing to everyone. The only people who don't like that approach are those who feel everything should be exactly how they like things and damn everyone else's tastes. Also "exception that proves the rule" is an idiotic statement that means nothing. It's not even a real argument, and is only used by people who think they're being clever by parroting it while in reality failing to understand even the most basic aspects of rhetoric.
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Character Expression
Dream replied to Osvir's topic in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
What does any of this have to do with realism.
