Ninjamestari

I kinda resent the way you suggest that the community is unanimous on this subject. You are not the mouth-piece of the community and do not have the authority to speak for all of us.

If they are interested in me both buying the game *and* not complaining about it then hell yeah it does. I very much doubt they will make such a major change at this time, so I expect they'll have to put up with the lack of your purchase. Are you *trying* to sabotage the company? One would think that me buying the game and complaining is preferable to my complete absence from the company point of view. What you fail to understand is that I represent a significant portion of the player-base with my opinions, a portion that rarely posts on the forums because of the vicious backlash they get from the forums when they express their opinions. The people that defend the way might is handled tend to be Obsidian loyalists, and I guarantee that if obsidian decides to change the system to accommodate my side of the fence, your side won't complain about it in the long run and will learn to love it just as much as they do the current way of doing things. Their choice is keep going with the current option that makes base A happy but alienates base B, or they can make adjustments so that both A and B are happy, the latter is just good business. And business *is* important; the more money they make with the game, the more money they can invest in future games and that is good for everyone.

More or less, yes. Shouldn't be that difficult to fix; get rid of precision and add wits to handle spell power, add in some secondary property for both so that they're universally useful and voilà, problem solved and no one has to listen to these sorts of arguments ever again. Everyone is happy.

If they are interested in me both buying the game *and* not complaining about it then hell yeah it does.

What's the point of banishing you now that you've been tamed? ^^ EDIT: ok, this has gone on long enough. Since you're no longer simply attacking me out of spite and this has turned into a sport, I think the actual conversation can take on from here. I won't follow this side-rail any further.

A true tsundere is what I am, consumed by passion just for you, apparently So you were smart enough to make a tactical retreat before exposing your nature. I was kinda hoping you weren't, you've obviously been doing this a long time. Well, at least you did step up on the wit department, wit is the separating factor between a worthy verbal sparring and a worthless ****storm.

Indeed, "bullying those I like" is a favorite pastime of mine. You caught me! A typo, although in your case it might even be accurate.

I can't help but notice you're still derailing the thread. If you pay attention to how I act, I do respect respectable people. You know, people who actually contribute their genuine thoughts on the subject matter instead of starting arguments that have nothing to do with anything. You have made it abundantly clear that your intentions are not to contribute to the discussion, and thus your only motivation is bullying those you don't like, and sadly you're smart enough that you're able to try to virtue signal while doing so. It's a sad sight to see an intelligent individual stoop to such moral lows.

Funny you should say that, because the way I remember the last time you pulled this "I'm the real victim here, cruelly bullied by the thugs of this forum" ploy, the reaction ended up to be a resounding "well actually, the **** was inside you all along (what a twist)". (I also find it amusing that the exact same thing for which you're being called out laughed at now, namely demanding respect while treating everyone with contempt practically dripping from every post seemed to be at the crux of the issue even back then.) Funny how it's you who keeps derailing threads I take part in. I know you're used to being able to bully people into submission, it's what you're trying to do right now, and trying to even claim group authority. You're barely holding your hate at bay, even emphasizing your venom with italics on occasion, you never discuss the actual points without resorting to personal attacks. If you want to avoid being treated with contempt, then might I advise making an effort not to appear so contemptible. Arguing honestly about the points at hand instead of being on the prowl for controversy just so you can jump in and attack people would be a beginning. Not being so utterly contemptuous yourself would be another excellent starting point. You've played your hand in derailing yet another conversation, a conversation you didn't even partake in. I hope you're proud of yourself.

If you feel I've misrepresented you, by all means, please do explain how we should reconcile the sentiment that we should "respect people behind arguments" (or else "show that there's an incredibly despicable sentiment" behind our words) with "but I am free to imply that people who disagree with me do so because they're sub-sentient basement dwellers". Or should only the people who make the right kind of arguments be respected? If you hadn't so clearly demonstrated your own disingenuous motives, both now and in the past, I might even do that. You have a history of quoting me out of context, you don't like me and you do not like my views, and you have proven that this renders you incapable of discussing anything with me in an honest manner.

It's one of those situations where one really likes the idea, but its implementations often end up being more trouble than they're worth. There are structural requirements for a game before WYSIWYG can be implemented in a way that actually adds value to the experience. In PoE for example, I don't really see many situations where the WYSIWYG approach really improves the experience, where as in a more roguelike game I'd go so far as to claim that WYSIWYG is paramount. WYSIWYG does have serious implications, and unless the game is built to handle those implications, WYSIWYG loot is going to cause problems. And really? ME2 is that hated? ME2 did so many things right, it achieved a meaningful power curve, a meaningful economy (as long as you ignore the damn achievement bonuses), and an overall amazing ride. ME2 is the pinnacle of what a streamlined adventure RPG has been able to achieve so far. PoE obviously isn't going for the same direction, nor should it, but I still think ME2 holds many important lessons that if learned, could seriously benefit Deadfire as a game. Admittedly though, many of those lessons are of the "how not to do it" - variety, such as the achievements I think.

Hmmm. I like how you even cut the sentence in order to quote even more out of context. Like I've said before, if you are trying to be an **** on purpose, at least make the attempt at wit.

I feel like I'm missing some sort of reference here? :D What website gives you access to many many stores and shops? Goddammit, now I feel stupid xD

The "sword tetris" isn't that bad unless the inventory is ridiculously limited, like in the old infinity engine games. Overall, I think this current system is kinda silly, and if this is the way they want to go, I'd remove the stash and the individual inventories completely and just have a single unlimited universal inventory; we already have that in essence, the individual "inventories" don't really do anything in PoE besides adding needless hassle, as combat access to items is already limited to quick-item slots. I have no strong feelings on this particular subject, since while the limited inventory does add to the economic side of the game, I also do hate the hassle, especially if the volume of items you collect is so vast. In essence, if not going for the hardcore inventory management, I'd remove trash loot completely, as it really doesn't add anything to a game where you can never lose your gear. If your character could lose their equipment via them breaking, getting stolen, being imprisoned or whatever, then the WYSIWYG approach to loot would be awesome, but that would require a completely different approach. I like how ME2 handled loot; they realized that the ME1 loot didn't really add anything to the game besides the hassle of managing a limited inventory of useless stuff, so they got rid of the inventory management completely. I don't think that approach would fit for PoE, but there is a certain philosophy there that should be adopted, and that is not being afraid to get rid of mechanics that don't really add to the game just because you've been used to these mechanics in past games that may or may not have had completely different contexts for them. Removing trash-loot completely would also help to manage the games loot-economy, as then you could have a lot more control on how much stuff the player gets from a dungeon. I think the removal of WYSIWYG is still in the context of this game the right thing to do, but whether or not it'll be enough remains to be seen. I'd rather not have trash loot at all though.

I hope they go at least a bit crazy on the utility side; teleporting, creating temporary walls, magical darkness was always an interesting concept, maybe even flight or levitation if they go really crazy and can come up with a way to achieve that in a visually pleasing manner in their engine.

I think that the main feature that causes money to play wonky is the income curve through loot. There are too many tiers of stuff to account for, and with unlimited inventory and stash access, it's way too easy to collect every single piece of loot. Enforcing carry limits might help with that, and could also lead to interesting new designs that could potentially add immersion, such as loot mules with saddlebags you can keep with you while adventuring and the like. And seriously, who didn't like finding a Bag of Holding back in the day ^^ That, and reducing the tiers of magic items. The more 'rare' magic is, the more meaningful is the economy you can create. Reducing the loot-income-curve would leave room for other kinds of methods in getting wealthy; this being a renaissance setting, I don't see why there couldn't be private companies you could by shares of, and perhaps even collect dividends. Investing your gold gives the currency a whole another layer of meaning, and it is also engaging as hell. If you can invest the gold of your character in the hopes of generating revenue, I guarantee that it will increase your engagement with that character and the game. So, primitive company shares, real estate, and now that we're going to get a ship, active trading and perhaps even smuggling could be added to play a role in the accumulation of wealth for our characters. Then add in super-expensive by desirable items, such as a lmited number of tomes or potions that grant permanent stat-increases but also cost an arm and a leg (you could hide some of the merchants that have these behind quests or some obscure locations to also give neat rewards for exploration), super-powerful super-expensive equipment, etcetera etcetera. That would give the money value, and as a whole coupled with the versatile ways of player income, would turn currency and economy into an exciting little extra layer of game-play.

I feel like I'm missing some sort of reference here? :D

I have to second this. Being different for the sake of difference offers no real value, and the Cipher resource system is tedious and ludicrous. I played Cipher because I love the concept of the class, the fantasy behind it, but I absolutely hate the Cipher mechanics. The whole "I shoot you with a gun and gain power" kinda feels ridiculous at best, and isn't even a fun mechanic to play around with. It's basically just another version of Warrior's rage from World of Warcraft. I have never liked any attempt at converting rage into a spell-casting mechanic instead of a melee one and I definitely don't like it in Ciphers.

No I don't, I'm implying that the motivation behind this new approach was the false assumption that it would create a more "gender neutral" system. There is a huge difference, and as I've said countless times, the gender issue isn't that interesting to me anyway. It just keeps coming up because people are so hysterical about that gender politics bull**** in this day and age. My argument is, was, and always has been, that D&D stat concepts are firmly rooted in reality, PoE stat concepts are not, and this is a problem for PoE. Nothing more, nothing less.

So um... What's the scale? How much of gritty reality do I need to experience? I live in a basement with my parents (they actually also live in the basement) and have never left for outside, I have my rats do my groceries, see. That means I can enjoy games like Torment: Tides of Numenera and Might attribute in Pillars of Eternity. Will I stop playing Torment if I now grab an axe and chop down a tree for I will be touched by the gritty reality? On scale from 1 to 1000, how much of gritty reality did you experience to be able to accept much more obvious breaches of physics like people shooting flames out of their hands, calling for lightning, transforming into animals or continents that are formed completely illogically but get bothered by naming of an abstract statistic? If you fight in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria, will that make you stop accepting mages? And if you then move to US police force and shoot a few people by accident, are any fantastical elements in your games impossible? I'm genuinely confused, never having experienced reality of any sort. Seriously tho, there's not much more to be said after you pulling that. If you find your point validated on basis of believing to have more real-life experience than everybody else you know nothing about because they don't mind fantastical elements in make-believe videogame on a discussion board about fantastical make-believe videogames, well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Let me sign off with a nice song for calm evenings so that we can return to our regular scheduling. You know, you being so touchy about this whole thing says a lot more about you than it does about me. I'm merely stating observable facts. If you now grab an axe and chop down a tree of sufficient size, I can guarantee that it will subtly change the way you see the world. If nothing else, you'll learn to appreciate chainsaws a whole lot more. All in all, I'd recommend you stop whining like a small child, your behavior so far isn't really worthy of a sentient being. If you can't even be bothered to create a serious response, don't bother responding at all. The best you can hope for when taking an approach like yours is preventing someone more mature who likes the system to come up with some actual reasoning to defend the new system, instead of this infantile whining about being offended. The PoE stat system creates a disconnect between the game and reality <- fact. This disconnect alienates a significant number of players <- another fact. This isn't a new argument at all, and it will persist until the concept changes sufficiently as to not cause these problems. By not respecting it and the people behind the argument, you're simply showing that there is an incredibly despicable sentiment behind the argument in favor of the nature of the Might stat, even if it is only the sentiment of the loudmouth minority in the 'for' camp. This doesn't do any favors to your views.

I remember vaguely the ****storm that was created when I started speculating on the motive being "enabling female characters", although I may not have used those words. I don't think that "enabling a 40kg woman to have the same punching power as Conan the Barbarian" is a worthy goal, and it has in fact probably caused this whole statistics issue. When compared to D&D, we lost a system that tied our ideas of the character to the reality we understand instinctively, and got back an MMO-esque abomination in return. Anyway, the why of it isn't nearly as important as are the implications of it. The why is a question for politicians who want to manipulate the playing field to achieve their own agenda, but from a design standpoint you want to focus on the implications, as that allows you to understand the benefits and drawbacks of certain design concepts and thus help judge whether or not they're worth pursuing. The intentions are irrelevant to the outcome, and we've already gone one round through guessing the motivations of the developers. If you can do the mental gymnastics of your physical strength being the byproduct of your metaphysical properties, then you should have no trouble doing those very same gymnastics with normal strenght, and the transition to an abstracted metaphysical might thus serves no purpose. The way people usually defend this system with such a religious fervor leads me to believe that there are deeper ideological agendas at work here, and I definitely do not want to see the cringe-worthy ideologies of people represented in the games I play. And I'm not alone, there is a significant portion of players that has been alienated by this decision, and I'd wager that it hasn't attracted a single player that wouldn't otherwise have bought and played the game to compensate for that. And before anyone makes another idiotic "go play something else", you know perfectly well that there aren't that many companies producing these types of games. So if you absolutely have to be an **** on purpose, and if you absolutely have to do it here, at least put in the effort of not being a tired old cliché.

You do understand that there's this gray area between a reality simulator and a completely ludicrous make-believe? PoE exists somewhere in that gray area, as does every single fantasy game. If you're trying to be an ass on purpose, you could at least try to do it with some wit.

I'm not really sure that incentivizing resting is that useful a goal, considering how pointless a mechanic it is in its current non-limited form.

Yeah, I'm not interested in a fantasy world that is so out of touch with reality that even physics don't work. Especially when it otherwise doesn't pursue its own 'version', but instead still takes its ques from history. The two contexts are in conflict, and we again get to the point that Obsidian really didn't have a clear vision when making PoE. I can understand how these new generations of people who have never done anything in the real world might not see that disconnect as problematic, but when like me you have intimately experienced the gritty reality of the world, you can no longer respect anything that is purely make-believe. You need that connection to reality to give the fantasy meaning, and when that connection is lost, the fiction becomes empty.

Aah, progress. Thank you. Here lies the problem with your comparison: While strength in D&D is obviously an abstraction, it is an abstraction of reality. Might in PoE isn't, it's an abstraction of an abstract metaphysical concept that doesn't resonate as much (or at all) with the instinctual reality, as strength in D&D does. So you're right, they're both abstractions, obviously, but Might in PoE doesn't have roots in the concrete reality and human instinct like STR of D&D does. That is the difference.