[Discussion: the PoE beta xp system]

According to Josh (by paraphrasing) degenerative gameplay is gameplay that against designers intent but using it benefits player in such degree that game encourages to use such gameplay is main way to play the game or not using such gameplay puts player unfavorable position compared to those that used such gameplay. And that degenerative is always designers fault and there is nothing wrong in that players play optimally in given ruleset even if it goes against designers intent and seem odd from game world perspective.

 

Rest-spamming, save-scumming etc. behaviors that go against designers' intent and game world logic are symptoms that are caused flaws in game design. Which is why designers try not to create flaws in the rule set they are designing and not demanding players to use such behaviors if they are possible when they are playing games they have designed (at least usually this is the case) . 

 

I would guess that problem that some people have with term "degenerative gameplay" rises probably that they have absolute opposite view in game design than designers themselves, which makes them to associate term with themselves instead with designers like they do. Such terminological misassociating seems to happen time to time in projects with multidisciplinary approach, which makes defining terms even more important what they typically are in the projects.

 

I also would guess that they don't use degenerative design instead of degenerative gameplay is that they describe how product works instead of how they work.

 

But it seem somewhat malicious to attack designers time and time again because of this term, even though they have multiple times explained what they mean with it. But who I am to stop good witch burning. 

 

 

It is hardly witch burning. If you actually ever played obsidian games, you'd automatically realize that their strong suit is Storytelling and not combat/game play design. I would have conceded to your point if there was SINGLE game where the combat was good. I am sorry to report, that there isn't. And I mean not just the design of the combat mechanics, I mean the encounters themselves which are practically very easy to get right even if you are working with a bad engine / some one else'e mechanics. Frankly, I am very surprised that they went for RTwP with Elves the first chance they got to go free for their own desires. 

[[Mod] Slower Run Speed]

This is nice. The game was really too fast paced earlier. Thanks sensuki. Can you try out even slower a speed like 4m/s? Also does the combat -clustered ness get reduced by this? Feeling?

[Discussion: the PoE beta xp system]

It's odd. I keep finding flaming accusations to the players' degenerative playing, but I never come across the actual term "developer degenerative design". As I see it, the dev has the responsibility to design the game competently enough so that encourages what he considers "non degenerative design" (granted, some players will still play their way, but if they have fun, what's the problem). Else he has failed ad a designer, at least according to his own parameters.

I don't think anybody (well, possibly somebody did) ever played PS:T in that kind of way that would currently be called "degenerative", and guess why? Because the content that encouraged playing it in the way the devs wanted was Top Notch. It's just as simple as that.

Which bothers me a lot too.

 

I mean look at this:

 

Rest-spamming, Save-scumming. The words basically accuse US, players for 'degenerative' gameplay. Well, I really ask is that is fair. The developer actually put all the features which cause this SOME times by SOME players. But they end up blaming us. Sounds like escapist attitude to me.

 

Even worse, I do not understand why the developer has to care how I play the game. Maybe the only reason is the developers themselves are degenerative players and end up projecting it on us. I really can not sympathize with them...

[Discussion: the PoE beta xp system]

 

This is why the goblins are there:

 

A) Make the city seem like it's under attack.

B) Provide simple enemies for newcomers to the IE games to learn how the game works.

C) To make the game a tiny bit more challenging.

 

The goblins don't provide much xp; you'll level up from the quest xp though after the siege of the town is over.

 

EDIT: Spelling errors!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually none of these reasons make the trash necessary. And it is dishonest to say that the trash mobs were restricted to the opening area. I am replaying IWD2 right now so I will come up with a good list later if that is necessary. But I feel I am unable to get my point through: These mobs add nothing to the game. The feel of the attack can be managed without such things. Just play Blackguards. See for yourself. The XP to level up is a pretty bad reason as well; the could have still given it through quest XP/Boss battle XP. Same goes for newcomer training. This was probably the most ridiculous reason for trash mobs. It would be much more instructive to have better encounters that are practically leading you through different kinds of ability uses instead of samey trash which actually made you insensitive to the game. 

[Discussion: the PoE beta xp system]

 

 

In IWD/IWD2/NWN2/NWN you could NOT afford to NOT fight the trash mobs as they gave out XP. Losing that XP made you characters weaker later on. This is plain effing horrible design. It enforces a kind of gameplay that you can not enjoy even if you like the story. 

 

In IWD2 you could easily affort not to fight the goblins and you wouldn't even lose out on xp since you could just rest in a higher level area and kill like 1 of the monsters. There; all the xp the goblins give and more has been gained.

 

Then why put the goblins there at all? 

 

Also, it is not completely true. You had to kill the goblins to level up in the first place, or rely on lucky rolls. degenerative gameplay. no?

[Discussion: the PoE beta xp system]

 

 

 

ps

 

iwd2 has little o' what we would define as filler combat, but again, you still haven't given a useful definition, so we cannot say what you mean by filler. as we noted above, mc is a boardie who has been open and honest about his preference for fighting... in tunnels. the game progression is iwd2 (am sure you mean something by this that is different than other folks) were right up his alley. game progression were achieved by providing the player with a multitude of varied combat situations. the fight against the goblins at the targos wall were a much different encounter and were requiring different tactics than were the fight against sherinical outside the ice temple, or the swarm o' hook horrors that dropped from the ceiling, or whatever. the story and rp elements were largely muted in iwd2, and the sequence of combats, which unlike bg were having us rely on a wide variety o' tactics to be overcoming them, were the  raison d'etre o' iwd2 gameplay. fighting... in tunnels. arguably the only obvious filler combats in iwd2, for Gromnir at least, were the initial goblin encounters on the targos docks, but we recognize that the game had no tutorial and that level 1-3 is extreme lethal in d&d d20-- one critical hit = insta-death. first few encounters in iwd2 is a tutorial and a chance for some free xp to level beyond insta-death. so, in point o' fact, we wouldn't consider such stuff filler either.

 

but again, we specific avoided defining filler, and we will continue to do so, 'cause is your non-explanation. you may instead wanna argue with us that iwd2 game progression were not what we suggest or that we is wrong about varied combats, but until you actual explain, you is simply proving our point. 

 

it's the schools. we hear critical thinking and analysis given as goals, but we so rare see any o' that stuff. and is not just US schools neither as we taught in europe for awhile... decades ago.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I liked how you conveniently dropped out other examples. And yeah, IWD2 is pretty much a definition of trash mobs. No need to defend it. You are right to point out that it is the reason it was created; to be a diablo clone in IE with party. 

 

Frankly that is exactly how I would describe PoE combat right now. Except Diablo is a more honest game and plays better as it has no party. 

 

nothing convenient. look at time of the posting.  we were writing and posting at the same time as your most recent reply. add lack o' observation skills to our grumpy old guy complaints.

 

'course you still actual haven't done as requested.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Maybe you should notice that I am talking about NWN and NWN2 ine earlier posts....

[Discussion: the PoE beta xp system]

 

ps

 

iwd2 has little o' what we would define as filler combat, but again, you still haven't given a useful definition, so we cannot say what you mean by filler. as we noted above, mc is a boardie who has been open and honest about his preference for fighting... in tunnels. the game progression is iwd2 (am sure you mean something by this that is different than other folks) were right up his alley. game progression were achieved by providing the player with a multitude of varied combat situations. the fight against the goblins at the targos wall were a much different encounter and were requiring different tactics than were the fight against sherinical outside the ice temple, or the swarm o' hook horrors that dropped from the ceiling, or whatever. the story and rp elements were largely muted in iwd2, and the sequence of combats, which unlike bg were having us rely on a wide variety o' tactics to be overcoming them, were the  raison d'etre o' iwd2 gameplay. fighting... in tunnels. arguably the only obvious filler combats in iwd2, for Gromnir at least, were the initial goblin encounters on the targos docks, but we recognize that the game had no tutorial and that level 1-3 is extreme lethal in d&d d20-- one critical hit = insta-death. first few encounters in iwd2 is a tutorial and a chance for some free xp to level beyond insta-death. so, in point o' fact, we wouldn't consider such stuff filler either.

 

but again, we specific avoided defining filler, and we will continue to do so, 'cause is your non-explanation. you may instead wanna argue with us that iwd2 game progression were not what we suggest or that we is wrong about varied combats, but until you actual explain, you is simply proving our point. 

 

it's the schools. we hear critical thinking and analysis given as goals, but we so rare see any o' that stuff. and is not just US schools neither as we taught in europe for awhile... decades ago.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I liked how you conveniently dropped out other examples. And yeah, IWD2 is pretty much a definition of trash mobs. No need to defend it. You are right to point out that it is the reason it was created; to be a diablo clone in IE with party. 

 

Frankly that is exactly how I would describe PoE combat right now. Except Diablo is a more honest game and plays better as it has no party. 

[Discussion: the PoE beta xp system]

 

Saying "is not an explanation" does not happen to be a valid defense either. I tried. But against the might attribute of Grominr I failed my Int check. Good going...

you didn't say... anything. zombies and orcs from nwn 2 don't "contribute to the game progression." provide a why and not simple a conclusion based on some vague feeling. you aren't explaining actual complaints and we ain't gonna do your work for you. 

 

btw, as a hint, we would be much more likely to use various bg encounters as examples as filler. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Actually I did. But as I final try I will oblige by explaining it in detail: 

 

In  IWD2, the starting map, if you removed most goblins from the scenario, would you feel that the game is any different? There is still the secret cave where all you need to frame is a single tough representative fight. That precisely what a trash mob is. Fighting these goblins adds nothing to the core game, except making it boring to reach plot relevant areas where the real story fights occur. I'd respect the game more if it had a wasteland/darklands like world where your character skill would determine if you needed to fight those monsters. 

 

In NWN2 the same is true of Orc caves and the zombie infested crypts. Remove these encounters and the game is actually much more enjoyable. 

 

Contrast this with XCOM, where combat is really the core gameplay. Where it is enjoying combat that makes you play in the first place.  As I see it, the current BB is just not that interesting to play as a combat oriented game. You can very well claim that this is subjective, but I doubt it. When you have to pause more often than real time the game, it is a badly designed implementation. To really enjoy it you have to have to have severe masochist tendencies. But I digress...

 

In IWD/IWD2/NWN2/NWN you could NOT afford to NOT fight the trash mobs as they gave out XP. Losing that XP made you characters weaker later on. This is plain effing horrible design. It enforces a kind of gameplay that you can not enjoy even if you like the story. 

 

Right now, removing combat XP from the game has basically  made it obvious that stealthing through the game is the optimal way to play it. There is nothing to gain really by fighting unless the developers force you to fight by hiding quest relevant items or even items that make you reasonably strong behind quest unrelated or number-bloated out monsters. For the latter example take the NWN2 orc cave. The orcs were quest relevant. But fighting through them was a chore to reach their boss. 

 

I am willing to force myself with the bad combat just to listen to the story. I just hope that the bad combat is not made ncessary. And this is all the while, when I consider myself a combat loving creature... 

[Discussion: the PoE beta xp system]

Saying "is not an explanation" does not happen to be a valid defense either. I tried. But against the might attribute of Grominr I failed my Int check. Good going...

[Discussion: the PoE beta xp system]

call us an obsidian/bio fanboy is... amusing, but am gonna let that slide.

 

and you still haven't explained what you think filler combat is... and which PoE encounters were fillers. you has simply expanded your complaint so that it now includes other games. you did exact opposite of what woulda' been helpful. we now not only have the beta, we got a veritable horde o' games with literal hundreds or thousands o' different combat encounters.

 

...

 

what is wrong with you people?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Actually I did explain what filler combat is some pages ago. I thought it was unnecessary to do so again, but here it is:

 

 

I guess a little lining out of what trash combat is, will help here:

 

When you have to fight enemies that do not in any way contribute to the game progression, except by making it longer, the combat can be considered filler/trash. Case in point: 

 

1) IWD 2 Golbins : Yeah, there is a goblin invasion going on. But jesus christ, do I have to fight every effing one of them??

2) NWN2 : Zombies and Orcs. WHHHHYYYY?? 

3) Dragon Age: Darkspawns. 

 

Sometimes these "mobs" do make sense, but that does not mean that they should be there for you to make sweet XP-love to. The game content ought to come from encounters that tell a story. Not from dungeon hacks from Diablo. Which makes the entire dungeon level in PoE a brilliant idea: Those who are masochist enough and really like the filler content can go there to extinguish that hunger for morbid gut wrenching. The rest can actually play the game. 

 

To make things absolutely clear, this is not, I repeat NOT equivalent to saying that there should be no combat in RPGs. That particular sentiment has a copyright. This is to point out that fattening up the game with beetles/turtles/wombats is not really helping. 

[Discussion: the PoE beta xp system]

 

Gromnir. 

 

Would you concede that the real problem is encounter design and having filler combat? Or is that also another one of those unnecessary frivolities for you? 

"filler combat" is no different than grindy. you is simply tossing in a term that you believe has universal qualities, and am assuming that you feel that PoE combat encounters also have such qualities. explain your concerns, or don't. we can guess why you believe that some/much/all (?) PoE combat encounters in the beta were filler, but there is no reason for us to not only refute (if we cared to do so... hell, we might agree with you) but to also make your argument for you.

 

people, explain what your actual concerns is. you folks is good at identifying problems, but you is extreme weak on the explanations. 

 

as for 789...

 

*groan*

 

the developers were very clear 'bout what they were doing with xp. is boardies, such as yourself, who got fixated on the labels and failed to realize you were arguing irrelevancies given what obsidain actual claimed they were doing with xp.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Actually filler combat is not so much as a "silly nomenclature" as your current mood dictates is the problem with the fanbase. I assume being a gigantic obsidian/bio fanboy you played NWN, IWDs and NWN2. Did it not bother you that the games needed to kill way too many people to achieve very little?

 

Now to the main point: Why I think it will be a problem in this game.

 

When a game is geared to give you Quest only XP,  then basically all combat is filler combat as long as it is not the end boss. Funny isn't it? Why would I fight at all if there is no real motivation to fight? 

 

I would point out here, that if stealth is a viable option then fighting is definitely suboptimal. Boss-fighting will give you all your tactical challenge. This is of course besides the point that I believe that the game is too cluster-farked to be really enjoyable. 

[Discussion: the PoE beta xp system]

Gromnir. 

 

Would you concede that the real problem is encounter design and having filler combat? Or is that also another one of those unnecessary frivolities for you? 

[Discussion: the PoE beta xp system]

I guess a little lining out of what trash combat is, will help here:

 

When you have to fight enemies that do not in any way contribute to the game progression, except by making it longer, the combat can be considered filler/trash. Case in point: 

 

1) IWD 2 Golbins : Yeah, there is a goblin invasion going on. But jesus christ, do I have to fight every effing one of them??

2) NWN2 : Zombies and Orcs. WHHHHYYYY?? 

3) Dragon Age: Darkspawns. 

 

Sometimes these "mobs" do make sense, but that does not mean that they should be there for you to make sweet XP-love to. The game content ought to come from encounters that tell a story. Not from dungeon hacks from Diablo. Which makes the entire dungeon level in PoE a brilliant idea: Those who are masochist enough and really like the filler content can go there to extinguish that hunger for morbid gut wrenching. The rest can actually play the game. 

 

To make things absolutely clear, this is not, I repeat NOT equivalent to saying that there should be no combat in RPGs. That particular sentiment has a copyright. This is to point out that fattening up the game with beetles/turtles/wombats is not really helping. 

[Discussion: the PoE beta xp system]

 

Reminder to Gromnir: Playing RPGs to cast spells and kill trolls is ego-stroking. Doesn't get more stoked-ego'd than being a universe saving super hero with sol power. Yeah, gaming is all about feeling big and tall. It is about rewards.

RPG are indeed (almost) all about rewards, and especially about the balance between risk and reward. Otherwise, we would be playing a graphic adventure with combat interludes, with no need for xp, level progression or loot, since story and quests would be enough of a reward. Currently, trash mobs are only risk and no reward, therefore, from an RPG perspective, they are a paragon-level fail. More importantly, combat against them is as dull as Anomen's wit.

 

Being saying this since ages. 

[Discussion: the PoE beta xp system]

Reminder to Gromnir: Playing RPGs to cast spells and kill trolls is ego-stroking. Doesn't get more stoked-ego'd than being a universe saving super hero with sol power. Yeah, gaming is all about feeling big and tall. It is about rewards. 

[Discussion: the PoE beta xp system]

Bandage for cancer. 

[Discussion: the PoE beta xp system]

Captain Shrek:

 

But I agree that having all those which are currently trash mobs be tied to story/quest would be fantastic. And that would solve the combat xp, since every single combat would be part of a quest and therefore net you xp. But, honestly, do you realistically see it happening? Especially with the Spectre of Quest Staggering constantly rearing its ugly head...

If this is not going to happen then the game will be worse than BGs. It will be like IWDs but less clear and more pausy. In IWD2 I absolutely hated fighting off horrible hordes of pointless monsters to get from any one point of map to other. I hope it will be better than that for PoE. 

[Discussion: the PoE beta xp system]

 

I am still not convinced by the idea that combat reward needs to be something in the form of XP or loot. It should really be "story". Deus Ex did this really well.

 

Also, I  *hate* trash mobs. rewarding me with loot/XP to fight them is lame. Just get rid of them! Why do I need to fight damn beetles or wolves or cultist? The battles should feel unique and tactical instead of being generic skyrim "Here's a wolf cave and for inexplicable reason they have been hoarding magic rings" feeling. 

 

This was one thing wrong with IE games earlier, especially IWDs and needs to go.

I don't like trash mobs either, and I am not advocating combat xp at all costs (although in the end it would probably be the least harmful solution). But I do think that the problem concerning the fact that the non-quest combat is pointless and demotivating (and stealth is the only option that makes sense right now) needs to be solved, one way or another.

Deus Ex was awesome, but what kind of compelling story can you reasonably tie to a pride of lions in the wilderness or to a bunch of beetles?

 

 

Frapillo80 and Indira lightfoot. 

 

The point is you * can * design stories around these encounters. That would however be true only if the beetles and lions are really rare. 

 

Take for example the beetles.

 

How often does one see giant beetles/crystal spiders? The party gets a quest that some traveler saw them and is being labelled mad. On the flip side he also swears that the beetle shell was made of pure gold. Now you have a dilemma: should you enter a deep dark cave just on the promise of fabled gold? Also, what makes beetles grow to that size and plated with gold in the first place? So when the party *does* decide to take on that challenge, it needs to prepare for the encounter. This is where the lore skill kicks in. Lets say that one of the participants has Lore: Animals. He uses that to tell the guy with Lore: Plants which poisons are fatal to beetles. You coat your weapons with that and the battle is significantly easy. Else, the beetles hand your butt back to you in pieces. When you investigate the cave, it turns out that the beetles have been feeding over a herb that is being fed by the local source of water contaminated by soul energy. Following the trail of this stream, you reach a hidden place where you discover some fantastic aspect of the world lore. Thus the beetles were a unique encounter and you can't get more Deusexy in spirit than that. 

 

This makes several different kinds of sense over the current "wolf cave" scenario: The combat is hard if you do not have the right skills. The combat is lucrative for a thematic reason. The combat is rewarding for lore/story reasons. 

 

A combat heavy game needs to have these things to NOT try and become a party based diablo which POE is threatening to become. 

[Discussion: the PoE beta xp system]

I am still not convinced by the idea that combat reward needs to be something in the form of XP or loot. It should really be "story". Deus Ex did this really well.

 

Also, I  *hate* trash mobs. rewarding me with loot/XP to fight them is lame. Just get rid of them! Why do I need to fight damn beetles or wolves or cultist? The battles should feel unique and tactical instead of being generic skyrim "Here's a wolf cave and for inexplicable reason they have been hoarding magic rings" feeling. 

 

This was one thing wrong with IE games earlier, especially IWDs and needs to go. 

[Can we get per rest Health restoring abilities/spells?]

I have no idea why players are masochistic enough to play absolutely artificial difficulty on completely fabricated odds that they self impose. I for one prefer to just abuse the resting mechanics than punish myself for "playing non-degeneratively".

[Per-rest vs. Per-encounter]

So can someone explain to me why knockdown is per encounter? Or is the explanation same as "Stamina healing is not healing"?

[Can we get per rest Health restoring abilities/spells?]

I say that make it cost gold/rare resource instead of making it per rest. And fix gold economy. 

[Per-rest vs. Per-encounter]

For me personally the entire debate is pointless. I am playing a single player game ffs. I do not need to be punished for doing cool stuff. The difficulty does not need to come from how many times I can use a banal thing like knockdown. That is a pretty strange thing in itself btw. The Difficulty should come from how smart the AI is and how the encounters are arranged. This per day stuff is just going to trivialize the game anyway. Why wouldn't you just fast run to the nearest town and get your most powerful ability back anyway? I am happy they decided to go with  resource management for resting but that is not going to help beyond a point...

 

As I see it, the best option is to give us flashy stuff to do. Give wizard uber nukes just make them cost resources like gems or XP. Well why not? That way the player can decide how he wants to play and use them for fun. The rest of the abilities also need to be flashy but always usable. The difficulty will come from the map design and the enemy behavior. 

[Per-rest vs. Per-encounter]

Fighters could use with not being pigeonholed into standing still so people can attack them.

Good luck with the HP/Stamina tied to class then.

 

 

NWN2 had issues beyond its implementation of specific class features. Thats apples and oranges.

 

Do ho ho No. Not at all. There are similar reasons why they are equivalent. In fact NWN2 had more abilities for melee classes and used more often than here, but never used because:

 

1) RTwP cluster****; who would bother if I could use wizard instakill instead, like in PoE! What a surprise!

2) Fighters were boring as their abilities were passive, like in PoE!

[Per-rest vs. Per-encounter]

I wonder if people really feel it would be tactically deeper to have the fighter do nothing other than auto attack? Thats what it was in the ie games and that sucked. That was boring. In that game, fighters did nothing of interest other than die slowly. It was chess with 2 queens (casters) and 4 pawns (everyone else).

 

I am heavily enjoying fighter knockdown, barb stamina regen, and the like. Yes, you will suck more if you dont use it. Thats good game design.

FIghters could do TRIP, Knockdown and Power attack in NWN2. just saying. That did not help. At all. I wonder why... :D