[Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat]

The part of "hit on the stomach" is the irrecuperable hp loss. The part of "this wound hurts as hell" is the stamina damage.

 

Which in real life would GET WORSE not better in a matter of minutes.

[Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat]

I think that stamina damage is not when you get hit. The *hit* part is the damage on health while stamina is what you dodge\absorb(moving so the sword don't hit the lungs)\deflect. A gun-shot or an arrow will probably be mostly health damage.

health and stamina loss are indipendent of one another. however you always lose more stamina than health when you are hit.

to make an example: if in real life you get shot at a non vital spot, you will not die imediatelly (in game terms you will lose 40-50% of your hp) but you will lose most of your strength due to the pain and the shock of the impact and will fall to the ground semi conscious (you will lose 90% or more of your stamina), unless you have a high pain tolerance, exelent physical conditioning and an iron will (or are on drugs), in which case you will be able to keep focus and control of your body (meaning you will have 30-40% stamina left)

 

Just to point out that realism has nothing to do with it. You don't magically regenerate stamina when hit in the stomach with a blade and then running away from battle for a while. Only in games like COD:MW2 such things are considered tactics though.

[Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat]

More so:

 

In order to avoid rest "spamming" the damage to health will have to be proportionately little.

[Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat]

Can you guess why that is being called Case 2?

No I cannot, because neither of your cases seem to make sense. They are not the full list of potential options for how a dual Stamina/Health system can work, for one, and your case one seems to assume that your current Health affects your max Stamina somehow. Your second case seems to assume a relationship between Stamina and attack damage, somehow. All I wanted to know is if these were merely hypothetically decided upon during the thread or if a developer had actually suggested them. Because neither of them are good, and the smart thing to do is to have your attacks at full strength regardless of your Health/Stamina and have your maximum Stamina remain the same regardless of current Health.

 

That is why it is nice thing to read the entire conversation first. I was replying to a person who suggested the idea that there MAY be a relation between Health AND your effectiveness.

 

Either way, the two options are mutually exclusive and all inclusive nevertheless.

[Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat]

Stamina is very explicitly not "action points".

 

Yes. It is not action points either as long as one uses that word with Fallout context (probably the game with best mechanics ever in RPGs).

[Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat]

snip

I am not against stamina. I am against regenerating stamina (And cooldowns). All you said is irrelevant. It can be equally well be in a classic IE game where simply there is no place to rest between two towns.

[Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat]

"if allowed"

 

Indeed... IF ALLOWED.

 

We're all making assumptions here based on a quick and simple explanation of a design idea that hasn't even been fully fleshed out by the designers yet. There are so many other variables other than health and stamina.

 

At the end of the day, I'm not too concerned which way they go because I have faith it will be a fun game regardless

 

18 months + 13 level dungeon + 2 big cities + 11 races + new setting + new ruleset + obsidian's track record for amazingly balanced games = > No worries, everything will be okay, honey and rainbows, move along.

 

Yeah sure.

[Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat]

Case 2: So suppose your Health does NOT affect max stamina as you suggest:

 

Then the combat will be EVEN less tactical with your best attacks remaining at full strength throughout the encounter chain.

When was it said that Stamina would determine attack strength? Or do anything other than allow encounters to be individually hard without forcing rest spamming?

 

Can you guess why that is being called Case 2?

[Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat]

 

Stop trying to limit this game with limited thinking and embrace the new ways this game could bring an even greater level of detail than ever before.

 

That is a nice mission statement for a corporation.

 

But as has been discussed earlier in this thread, there are more problems with continuously regenerating stamina than simply being a health shield (Assuming it is; but we will have to wait for that to be explained).

 

Still, for a second let us assume stamina is not health shield.

 

FACTS:

 

It has been mentioned that stamina will be lost during combat when you are hit and so will be health and that, there will be no rest spamming.

 

Case 1: So suppose your Health affects max stamina as you suggest:

 

The first implication of that is you will be at a suboptimal combat level before next encounter. There will be NO way to get to optimal without consumables (potions?/Kits?/food?) or rest. Now tell me how this situation is NOT exactly analogous to IE games where you had used up spells for mages and depleted health for other chars? These are the same reasons to which the entire anti-rest-spamming argument still apply. You will still do rest spamming if allowed under these assumptions if you are so inclined. Essentially the new system is simply a stand in for the old system except it has a stamina regeneration and cooldowns to spam your best attack per encounter unlike the tactical combat in IE games where you had to plan beforehand on how to use your resources. Not to mention with the regenerating resource of stamina if there are abilities related to that, you will also spam those based on the stamina "cooldown".

 

Case 2: So suppose your Health does NOT affect max stamina as you suggest:

 

Then the combat will be EVEN less tactical with your best attacks remaining at full strength throughout the encounter chain.

 

The problem as I see it, is that this system purportedly is designed to avoid rest-spamming, which in fact is an artificial issue (As in it does not really exist) and can be easily averted by good encounter design. The new system turns the game into spam-fest no matter how you cut it, simply because you are almost certainly using your best attacks per encounter even if at lowered potential (case 1).

 

This is exactly against IE game spirit (except Escape from planet tournament) where the planning required to actually see through the game was the charm of it's combat mechanics. It had faults, no doubt. But nothing so severe as to merit overhaul except for probably in the high magic setting (which is probably still in PE, we can't tell right now).

[Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat]

 

hahhahaha, you are joking, right?

 

and the joke is: calling PE's spammable low level spells (similar to Pathfinder's change over old D&D rules) as hack&slash system, although many famous tabletop settings have no-cost-low-level-magics for higher characters.

 

Hi.

 

Can you tell me what do you think Hack and Slash means?

[Does the player-created character have to act as party spokesperson?]

It.... depends.

 

SOZ had a nice system where party synergy paid off. But that was because of the way how skills were available. In this game skills may be available to all and a similar party synergy may be NECESSARY or not depending upon how the points are allotted to these skills.

[Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat]

I have to say I honestly did not expect this to be confusing to anyone. Here's an example. Bob the Fighter has 32 Stamina and 30 Health. He gets hit by a number of attacks that subtract 25 Stamina and 5 health (leaving him with 8 Stamina and 25 Health). He is a fighter, so he chooses to use one of his abilities to regenerate Stamina. He does this and quickly bounces from 8 Stamina to 15. Unfortunately, he gets smacked again for 20 Stamina and 4 Health. He is knocked out (effectively 0 Stamina) and at 21 Health. The guys who knocked him out move to other targets.

 

Francine the priest casts restore stamina on Bob when combat is over. He recovers to full Stamina quickly, but is still at 21 Health. Depending on how the next few fights go, they will either have to retreat to rest or find a safe resting spot up ahead.

 

http://forums.obsidi...20#entry1241994

[Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat]

He already clarified it,you quoted the clarification. In which he didn't mention shielding or for that matter regenerating. He didn't exclude them but he didn't exclude a great many things.

 

Really? Explain to me how this rules out shielding.

[Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat]

This is best interpreted (unless clarified) as heath (HP) shield.

 

Do you lack basic reading comprehension? These quotes do not, in anyway, describe a shielding mechanism. You take damage to stamina, you take damage to health. INDEPENDENT of each other. Your stamina is NOT shielding your health. if your health is 1 and your stamina is 100, you're going to die with the next hit. In fact you're going to die no matter what you're stamina is because it doesn't matter.

 

Wow.

 

I am actually waiting for Josh to clarify this. But you seem pretty sure that this is not so. I must assume Josh has told you so personally!

[Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat]

I have to say I honestly did not expect this to be confusing to anyone. Here's an example. Bob the Fighter has 32 Stamina and 30 Health. He gets hit by a number of attacks that subtract 25 Stamina and 5 health (leaving him with 8 Stamina and 25 Health). He is a fighter, so he chooses to use one of his abilities to regenerate Stamina. He does this and quickly bounces from 8 Stamina to 15. Unfortunately, he gets smacked again for 20 Stamina and 4 Health. He is knocked out (effectively 0 Stamina) and at 21 Health. The guys who knocked him out move to other targets.

 

Francine the priest casts restore stamina on Bob when combat is over. He recovers to full Stamina quickly, but is still at 21 Health. Depending on how the next few fights go, they will either have to retreat to rest or find a safe resting spot up ahead.

[Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat]

Stamina is not shield resource, it don't protect you health in anyway.

 

Stamina is fast consumable combat resource which lose will weaken character combat performance right up nothing (character is unconscious), but character can aslo get stamina poinst back fast via abilities, spells and items.

Health is slowly consumable combat resource which lose will lead character's dead/maiming depending on difficulty level. Character can gain his/her/it health back only by resting.

 

I haven't thought through a lot of the details, but I was considering something similar to Darklands, where characters have both Endurance and Health. Most damage taken in combat would Endurance, which is relatively easy to restore (through abilities and magic) and regenerates rapidly on its own, both in and out of combat. Damage to Health would be more serious and much harder to restore (probably only through consumables and/or rest). Having your Endurance lowered to 0 would knock the character out. Having your Health knocked to 0 would kill the character outright (though there may be some optional, lesser version of this effect for non-Expert players).

 

This is best interpreted (unless clarified) as heath (HP) shield.

[Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat]

now that i read a comment from Tim i get the idea that we approach this from the wrong angle. according to his comment, there will be NO automatic regeneration of stamina, except out of combat and then slowly. however there will be items and skills-spells that will restore stamina fairly quickly, allowing the character to stand his ground if he has enough hp

THis is indeed a great news if true! But source?

[Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat]

 

they never said IE clones. they said they want to bring the feeling of the IE games back not copy them. that means bigger parties, isometric graphics, more than 3 classes, complex combat and role play mechanics, etc. not the DnD gameplay that IE games had

 

Of course you are correct, I did not mean that literally. Sorry if it came across like that. PE is not an IE clone anyway.

[Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat]

snip

 

 

Except that ME3/DA2/SKYRIM/PE have CONTINEOUS IN COMBAT Stamina Regen.

 

 

Secondly, I have tried to make this point several times. Just because a game was old does not make its mechanics great. Darklands did not necessarily have great combat implementation but what was good about it was its low magic setting and the skills. Compare its good parts with PE and that would be a fair comparison. The aim of PE is create IE clones; not darklands clones. Otherwise in the same vein one would say that PE is not like darklands because.... *1000 irrelevant points* .

[Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat]

BG, BG2 and IWD all had automatic regeneration for health points during combat and outside of combat, this game will not have such regeneration.

 

Just lol.

You should take better look how system in them work for character with high constitution.

 

Enlighten me please. How did High Con cause health to regenerate?

If character has 20+ con s/he will get per turn health regeneration.

So you mean that it was not always on for all characters?

[Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat]

BG, BG2 and IWD all had automatic regeneration for health points during combat and outside of combat, this game will not have such regeneration.

 

Just lol.

You should take better look how system in them work for character with high constitution.

 

Enlighten me please. How did High Con cause health to regenerate?

[Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat]

 

We already have the non-regenerating Health as a way to force us to pace ourselves, why complain that your Stamina comes back when it's eliminating stupid gameplay?

 

 

Yes. IE gameplay was certainly stupid.

[Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat]

BG, BG2 and IWD all had automatic regeneration for health points during combat and outside of combat, this game will not have such regeneration.

Darklands was one most hardcore rpg ever and it's model for this game health/stamina system

 

Arcanum is not Obsidian's game, Tim Cain is only one in project who had something to do with it. And Arcanum is one of the best crpg ever made.

 

 

You are joking, right. You are a troll, I hope for the sake of humanity.

[Are you for or against gaining experience points only for completing objectives?]

 

Reading comprehension fail? I merely stated that a storyfag game may not be the best fit for hack'n'slash genocide simulator lovers. I wasn't compaining that the Undersigil was included in Torment, I just wondered why you would buy the game and then only grinded there, disregarding the rest.

 

There is no reason a game with good story can't have excellent combat. e.g. Betrayal IN krondor.

[Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat]

 

Also, you missed my point: it's not a "health" is damage mitigation. It's you and you only that are enforcing that view on yourself.

 

 

Saved for posteriority.