Hiro Protagonist II
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Everything posted by Hiro Protagonist II
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Thanks Elerond for proving my point, still not as many as the 29 games that hit the 90 mark last year in 2013. http://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/score/metascore/year/all?year_selected=2013 -
They did all agree. And it was no protest. What video are you watching? LMAO. You come up with some great fiction. I just watched it again and he said, 'it's odd', it's weird' and when the other guy on the end (who is glad he didn't want to do them) talks, that guy is laughing and nodding his head at the guy on the end in agreement. And then immediately after continues to say they're weird. There was no debate there. It was all four agreeing with how 'weird' and 'odd' and 'hard' and not wanting to do them. And yes, you've been defending them for the last few pages and continue to defend them. While the rest of the industry has moved with the times and does report on KS games. It's not harder even though you would rather take the words of the 1%. All it comes down to is reporting on a game which the rest of the industry can do. And has been pointed out, there are journalists who WANT to write and talk about these games. So that flies in the face with what you think.
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We're not talking about live coverage. Nice with moving the goal posts there. We're talking about reporting in general with Kickstarter games. You do realise you can still report about Kickstarter games after E3? And it doesn't have to be live coverage? hmm, just like so many websites will be doing when the embargo is lifted for PoE. And it's a point you still continue to ignore and not acknowledge. So no, your points are ridiculous, moving the goal posts, and are irrelevant, considering there are journalists who are reporting Kickstarter games. Yes, we are speaking about those four journalists in that video who all agree it's all too 'hard' and 'weird' and generally negative about the whole Kickstarter thing. It's not one journalist's perspective when all of them agree. And just because one of them says they covered KS games, it doesn't ignore the fact he also agreed with the other guy who said it was all weird and hard to do. Don't forget that little bit Elerond. Still championing that 1% who find it all too hard, while the rest of the industry can do it.
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I've already covered this Elerond. Magazines and web sites have more than one page. Why wouldn't you cover multiple things at the same time? Why limit yourself to just one part of the gaming industry and not do an article on an indy or Kickstarter game? The site might be surprised at the amount of hits if it becomes, and it may just become a popular indy/Kickstarter title through reporting of it.
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How ever did you discern such a secret?: Proof that you don't read people's posts before deciding what they're saying and responding. I don't have time for this. *tips hat* So you still haven't watched the video after two days. Oh well, it doesn't really help your argument when you still don't know what we're talking about.
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Perhaps asking this yourself. You keep talking about them and you keep coming back to them with your posts. Why? And why aren't you asking this to others? Clearly people are interested in them including yourself. And I've already answered your questions.
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If you're job is reporting on games and they find it all to hard to do their job with a certain type of game (eg. Kickstarter games), when it's actually easier to report on Kickstarter games with a wealth of knowledge at your disposal including new stuff that the dev's tell them in interviews such as E3. Then yes, they're incompetent. But keep taking my quotes out of context Elerond.
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Well we can look at 1998 when BG was released and all the popular games released then. As well as 2000 when BG2 was released and compare them to all the popular games released that year. The story will be the same. You get a small percentage in the 90 percentage range and most will be in the 70 and 80 percent range.
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Thanks for taking that out of context Elerond. You will also notice that the second and third sentence that you've neglected to quote is also part of that quote. All three sentences refers specifically to them. They are the gaming press. For some who accuses me of taking sentences out of context, you just did it yourself. So you still haven't acknowledged the 99% of the industry who can and do write up articles for Kickstarter games and don't have a problem doing so. You're still championing that 1% that finds it all too 'hard' and 'weird'.
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To balance it out, here are the more popular games from 1999 that did score more than 90%. On top of Planescape Torment and Syd Meiers Alpha Centauri. 1999 Quake III Arena 84.13% Gamerankings, 93% Metacritic 1999 Unreal: Tournament 92% Metacritic (21 reviews), 94% Gamrankings (22 reviews) 1999 The Longest Journey 88% Gamerankings, 91% Metacritic 1999 System Shock 2 92% Metacritic and Gamerankings Not a lot of games over 90%.
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Okay. lets have a look at some games from the last 15-20 years which I consider good games at the time that scored under 90. You said it was easy for games to score highly. I know, lets pick a year, say 1999. Here's a snapshot of some of the more popular games, and these are popular games that did sell really well. And not one scored in the 90 percent mark. 1999 Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun 79.68% (28 reviews). 1999 Half Life: Opposing Force 85.45 (30 reviews) 1999 Tomb Raider: The Last Revelation 75.07% 1999 Resident Evil 3: Nemesis PS 88%, PC 75%, DC 81%, GC 74% (I've taken the higher Gamerankings scores. Metacritic was lower than these) 1999 Tom Clancey's Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear 86% 1999 Descent 3 84.36% Gamerankings, 89% Metacritic 1999 Team Fortress Classic 85.43% 1999 Need for Speed: High Stakes PC 83.08%, PS1 84.38% Gamerankings. PS1 86% Metacritic 1999 Heroes of Might and Magic III 87% 1999 Grand Theft Auto 2 70% Metacritic So games like Grand Theft Auto 2 are a failure. And what games did barely get into the 90 percent range? 1999 Planescape Torment 90.63% Gamerankings. 91% Metacritic. 1999 Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri 92% Metacritic You said, "In the past low score reviews were much rarer, and high scores were much more common." "Gamers (and their reviewers) were also far less cynical and easier to please". No. Reviewers scored accordingly and Gamers were just as cynical and fed up back then as they are now.
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Classic stuff Elerond. She's clearly nodding in agreement when the others are talking. No projecting my beliefs. This is fact. But I can understand your denial and your continual avoidance of ignoring those journalists who do report and have no problem reporting Kickstarter games. And I never said they're an 'embarrassment to all gaming journalists that there are'. Those are your words, not mine. In fact they probably represent the 1% who don't know how to do their job, while the other 99% of game journalists do know how to do their job which is why we see game sites do report on Kickstarter games. But you keep defending that 1% minority of those journalists who don't know how to do their job, those that find it all 'weird' and too 'hard' and are glad they don't want to do it, while the other 99% of journalists continue to report and are eager to do so.
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You're also excluding some choice commentary and body language from them as well. The girl even nodded in agreement with what they were saying. So even though she didn't say anything, she agreed with them just the same. But we'll just discount those facts. Especially those great comments they made. Here's a question. Would they have had the same problem writing articles about these games if they didn't know they were Kickstarter games? Ah, the bias of reporters and media. But lets forget that it doesn't stop the general gaming media writing articles about these games. In fact, it's been pointed out that some journalists are eager to write about these games. Yeah, must be really 'hard' writing about Kickstarter games when some journalists can't wait for the embargo to be lifted and are itching to tell everyone about their reviews. Which is a point you continue to ignore.
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I don't see it as a binary, an either / or decision when you can do both. We're talking about a website or magazine that has multiple pages. Why can't you do an interview in the morning for the AAA dev and an afternoon interview with the small indy dev? Or schedule different appointments on different days? Again, you can do both. And we've seen gaming media sites report on Kickstarter games. So it's no problem for the gaming media industry to do so. That's the point you seem to want to ignore.
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No Lephys, that's not what I said. These reporters in question find it all 'weird' and too 'hard' and actively don't want to have anything to do with it. That's quite odd because it all comes down to it's just reporting on a game, regardless of the funding model. They (the reporters in question) have this idea that 'all the fans know about it already' which is another reason they give to justify their reasons why they don't want to report on Kickstarter games. DESPITE the fact the rest of the gaming media can and do report on these games. And it's not just about Pillars of Eternity. Sounds like you still haven't watched the video. They didn't even mention PoE. The journalists were talking about ALL KICKSTARTER games. They don't want anything to do with them. Because as one said, 'all the fans know about it already'. That seems like a very close minded view on what Kickstarter games are and who would benefit from reading stories about a Kickstarter game. eg. New Readers who don't know anything about the game. And existing fans to see the game reported in the main stream media. And no need for your prefect world examples. They don't add anything to the discussion. I'd rather deal with the real world.
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I am quite calm so no need to concern yourself. And I did answer by replying to posts. As Sarex said, this is a forum. I replied to Osvir's post. Elerond and Lephys replied and disputed my post and I in turn replied to their points. And thank you for pointing out that there are two different styles here. I'm talking about a real life example. Lephys as you point out is talking in abstraction. And stated above, it wasn't me that started this. I replied to Osvir's post. So looking at Lephys' post, you don't see it wasting time when his posts are abstract and don't conform to the gaming industry where we've seen the gaming media industry can and do write about Kickstarter games. I'd rather deal with real life examples than hypothetical abstracts.
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And I was talking about reporters. Reporters that report stories. And the same should apply to game reporters. Games shouldn't be reported on their merits, not their funding model which is what you and Elerond have been disputing. Perhaps simplifying it to this basic premise. Reporters should report. Done.
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Elerond, you've missed the point. I'm not talking about fans of a game. I'm talking about people who don't know anything about a Kickstarter game. And the journalists in question weren't complaining about how popular a game is, they were complaining about things like, 'the fans are in on it so no need to write about it'. What about all those people who don't know about the game? So I'll ask the question again. When journalists do write about a Kickstarter game even if it's not something new from the developers, perhaps a 'look at this game if you haven't seen it' article, how does that affect readers who have never heard of the game before?
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BG2:EE is not really a good example as it's probably being reviewed by people who are comparing it to todays games. There's also a lot of criticism for the 'enhanced edition' which has pulled down it's ranking. And magazines (reviews) 15 years ago may not be in business today. It was a different time back then and sometimes not for the better. I also find it funny you say Gamers were also far less cynical and easier to please than today. There's a good thread on RPG Codex about the "The Decline of Computer Gaming" in 1996. A very informative and interesting read. There were a lot of games that copied popular games. eg. Diablo and RTS clones. And a lot of terrible games at the time as well as great games, and saw a lot of games get average scores.
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Considering I did post about the funding model and you quoted my post which included the funding model, then it's only correct to continue to post about the funding model to keep it in context. Despite your failed attempts to try and take it out of context.
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So if anyone including myself goes to a gaming website and the website has copied and pasted something from a dev blog. No one will read it? It won't bring any readers? Even those readers who have never heard of the game before? Wow, that's amazing. You're right. Whenever I go to a gaming website and see a game I've never seen before, I don't read it because it's obviously been copied and pasted from a dev blog. Amazing logic there. And if journalists aren't familiar with the game, then here's an easy question for you. When journalists do write about it, how does that affect readers who have never heard of the game before?
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It is irrelevant. Does a reporter on TV or a newspaper or a magazine or a website take into consideration what the funding model of something is when they report something? Do they think, 'most people might know about this so there's no point reporting it'? You seem to be forgetting, or maybe you just don't know, that reporting something is not just about reporting a game. It's also a part of marketing and reinforcing that product/service to the consumer. For new people, it's something new. For consumers who already know about the product, it's reinforcement. Oh that's right, you're talking abstract nonsense again. Silly me.
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Elerond. tsk tsk tsk. You did say 'it don't bring any readers and if you haven't followed updates by yourself'. Here's your quote. Also, as I've said many times, the target audience would be people who don't know about the game. In fact, it would be easier to write a review for a Kickstarter game because you have a wealth of information with the Kickstarter updates to write an in depth review to people who have never heard of the game. Not the opposite.
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I gave an opinion from the start saying these guys don't know how to write about a game due to the type of funding and they should get with the times. The funding isn't relevant. Elerond and Lephys did defend these journalists with words like 'not reading updates to these games' and 'to be fair'. Firstly you don't need to read updates for the game to write an article about the game and you don't need to take the side of hacks and give a contrary argument. And Lephys relishes in these abstract arguments? For pages and pages? Not talking about specific examples? So there's really no substance to his posts. Anyone can argue and disagree on abstraction with superfluous posts. Lephys didn't want to talk about the specific example that's been talked about for pages and talk about some general problem? What general problem is that? There's no general problem. The industry doesn't have a problem reporting these games. Elerond proceeded to say things like "it don't bring any readers and if you haven't followed updates by yourself". Irrelevant as I've pointed out many times. Or is Elerond talking in the abstract? Who knows. Maybe you can explain what Elerond is talking about in this context. And I'm not getting worked up. I'm quite calm and relaxed. I do find it funny that you think I'm all worked up over this. Also, maybe ask the question to yourself, why does it bother you to jump into a debate between Lephys and myself and proceed to explain Elerond's and Lephys' posts and then ask me why I'm getting worked up? Perhaps ask why is Lephys debating page after page on some abstract meaningless point that has nothing to do with the gaming media industry as a whole.
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I don't go to their site. It was Osvir who linked the video. How about asking the question, why do people defend these hacks? I called them out pages ago and all I've had since is people like Elerond and Lephys argue against me.
