Death Machine Miyagi

Incidentally, very unsurprised by the results. We've had plenty of perfectly good open sandbox style games, large gameworlds with a lot to see and do, but the gaming industry is still hurting badly when it comes to telling original and interesting storylines. Nowhere near as many of the latter as there are of the former.

I don't think it's such a clear-cut choice. I'd much prefer good plot + good world over great plot + mediocre world. Remember BG2? A large and very important part of it was chapter 2 (in and around Athkatla), with tons of side quests and exploration that didn't really advance the plot at all (except that it served to gather enough gold and experience to move on to chapter 3). In fact, during some of the longer side-quests of chapter 2, I pretty much forgot about the whole over-arching storyline, and didn't miss it either, because good old world exploration and dungeon crawling is enjoyable in itself if the game world is well designed. BG2 was actually the exact game I was thinking of when I was considering the concept of 'great world, mediocre plot.' The entire BG series has a fantastic atmosphere to explore, lots of cool characters, fun NPCs, a ton of replayability...and a main plotline which can be fun at times, but is riddled with plot holes, poorly explained retcons, and cheese in general. By the time ToB comes around to wrap it all up, its really flagrantly obvious how little interest the writers had in maintaining consistency about the story they were telling. The BG saga's strength, alas, is not in its main plotline. And yet its an awesome game, one of my favorites of all time. In its world exploration and expansiveness, and its strategic battles, it tramples Torment into the dust. Yet Torment's plotline is far more original and far more interesting than anything seen in BG.

I know, hopefully they'll focus on both. Nevertheless, pretend for a second that you must choose one or the other. If the plot is gripping and memorable, somewhat unique and original like Planescape: Torment, the general world of Project: Eternity feels a bit cliche and unimaginative, as well as being somewhat limited in size. It isn't horrible, understand, but its nothing special. If the world is a vast landscape of brilliantly imagined new ideas, and feels amazingly original and fresh compared to the standard fantasy world, the plotline itself feels like typical fantasy fare. Again, not horrible, but not especially memorable. You have to choose one or the other. Which makes for a better game?

Whenever I play Baldur's Gate, I have to immediately download and install the Icewind Dale portraits. Simply the best PC/NPC portraits out there. I support this motion wholeheartedly. EDIT: Actually, make that less-than-wholeheartedly. I liked the Icewind Dale 2 portraits, but prefer the Icewind Dale 1 portraits. Didn't know the latter were done by Jason Manley until it was just posted above. What is he up to these days?

He was also quite frank about being an iron-fisted despot who asks you to do things like blow up an entire compound full of men, women and children, as well as urging you to refrain from killing a megalomaniacal mass murderering child slaver like Caesar because he's 'useful' for keeping the NCR in check. Realpolitik to the extreme. Moreover, when he wins, he uses his securitrons to exterminate some relatively harmless groups in the New Vegas area just for being friendly with the NCR. Yeah. Of the four choices you had in New Vegas, I'd say three were grey and one was black. You're certainly right about Caesar's Legion. The vision they had, of a sort of Fascist dictatorship that nevertheless made the proverbial trains run on time, never translated into the game itself, where they just came across as an army of sociopaths, luddites, slavers and misogynistic douchebags. Their leader was painted as a huge hypocrite and their philosophy as ultimately pretty empty. A Caesar's Legion victory was the 'evil' victory by any sane definition.

Things can always be 'better.' But I'm pretty sure hitting 200% of their intended funding (which they certainly will quite soon) suggests they're doing just fine.

The more absurdly powerful the PC, the more absurd the game in general tends to become. I especially loved Throne of Bhaal, which featured an entire army of bad guys that apparently had standard issue +3 weaponry and armor...and any PC reaching that point would still curbstomp them by the hundreds.

Asia is a lost cause. Different tastes, and no advertising campaign is likely to change that. I did manage to find a copy of Neverwinter Nights 2 for sale when I was in Taiwan. Without accompanying Chinese translation. Can't imagine how well that sold.

Really hoping subraces are not divided from one another based upon being 'good' or 'evil.'

Also, a pet peeve: can we stop with the poorly explained Medieval Stasis? There are fantasy worlds, even otherwise realistic ones, where people have been trapped at knights and lances and broadswords, apparently, since the dawn of time. Some explain it, some don't. At the very least give a good explanation why the technology remains at the exact same level for millenia at a time. It always bugs me whenever I see it. Note: I'm guessing that won't be as much of a problem here, as its been mentioned there are some firearms to be seen. Still, it'd be cool to know that it wasn't a case of 'we had castles and feudalism for the last ten millenia, then a couple of years ago someone invented a gun.'

I agree with this. What would be really cool to see is the game mixing things up in non-traditional ways, and a little language diversity instead of everyone and everything everywhere all astonishingly speaking the exact same language in the exact same accent would add a nice flavor to each region. I would also like to see them truly examine how the fantastic elements in a society might have changed its development over time compared to our own customs, rather than just throwing fantasy elements over a rip-off of real world customs. For example, one thing that has always bugged me is the prevalence of graveyards in games like Baldur's Gate, where you almost inevitably encounter crypts filled with shambling skeletons and zombies and ghouls. In our world, a graveyard is meant as a memorial to the dead, a quiet and peaceful place for paying your respects. If you lived in a world in which a random crazy person could, theoretically, cast a spell that turns the corpses of your dead grandparents into walking horrors to shamble about and kill at his command, don't you think cremation would be a little more popular than a whole field filled with a potential army for any such crazy person? That's just one example. God only knows how radically something like friggin' resurrection spells would alter the course of a developing society. I hope they honestly consider such questions: how would magical powers, like the presence of 'souls' that give people supernatural abilities, change the shape and mentality of a given developing culture from the way our own cultures developed?

The nature of message boards is that topics are cyclical. If there is no interest in discussing this topic anymore, this thread will fall away quickly. If there is interest, it won't. No big deal either way. In the meantime, if it bugs you to see it brought up again, you're welcome to ignore it.

I have to admit, I was a bit surprised when I first read about Project Eternity and realized it was going to go with a number of straight-forward fantasy tropes. It has elves and dwarves, a pseudo-medieval setting, and what sounds like a relatively high magic environment...all from the company which seemed to like subverting stuff like that as often as it could get away with in the past. Troika, of course, had elves and dwarves and orcs and so forth...but put them in a Victorian Steampunk setting to mix things up. Outside of that, not an elf or dwarf to be seen in Torment or Mask of the Betrayer as companion NPCs, but you DID have a chaste succubus, a floating skull plucked from the Nine Hells, a handsome hagspawn who can visit your dreams, a fallen angel fighting for a doomed but noble cause, a soul devouring monstrosity, a giant spirit bear and so forth. The most straightforward examples of the Standard Fantasy Setting Obsidian/Black Isle has worked on were NWN2 and the Icewind Dale series, but those were licensed games which probably didn't provide a ton of freedom in that regard. Given the track record of the team involved, I would be very surprised if Project Eternity doesn't play with generic fantasy tropes in some new way that makes it unique from your typical fantasy fare. Which makes me wonder how they're going to mix things up in a new and interesting way. I'm guessing the whole 'soul' thing they seem to be playing up as important to the game world will be one key part of it. As for the rest, what could be done with P:E Dwarves or Elves to make them stand out from the crowd? Then again, should something be done to make them stand out, or would you be fine with your standard forest-dwelling elves and bearded scottish dwarves living underground and drinking lots of ale?

A good game is the foundation, I agree. Without a good game at the base, who cares if you can mod it? Moreover, not all games are equally as worth modding. For example, as much as I love the game, I don't have much interest in Planescape: Torment mods beyond general bug fixes or restoring unfinished quests. Why? Because to me, Torment is primarily about its central storyline, and messing with that is as obnoxious as...say, adding a few new characters or plotlines to a newly released version of Casablanca or something. Torment is not the optimal game for modding, to me. But then you have games like BG2 or Arcanum, which have their central storyline, but that central storyline is very obviously not the most important point. The most important point is the exploration and the quests and the companions that surround it, the atmosphere and the world and the characters. In such cases, not everything added to the mix is good (yeah, there are plenty of horrible mods out there), but if it is good, it can add immeasurably to your enjoyment of the game. To sneer off everything that comes after the developers release a game because it wasn't made by the developers is close minded in the extreme, and as far as I'm concerned the surprising number of people in this thread who dismiss mods out of hand are only doing a disservice to themselves. But I digress. You're right that a good game is likely to be played by fans for nostalgia's sake and played long after it has been forgotten by the vast majority of the gaming world, moddable or no. God knows I have had a few (unmodded) games on my computer that have been there a lot longer than they reasonably should have been. The game itself, however, remains as it was. It will never have new things to see or do. For some games, that's fine; it fits the game. For others, to have new things to see and do is a pleasure which keeps a game popular long after it should reasonably have faded into memory.

Pretty sure the Cowled Wizards oppose people using unsanctioned magic in general, not just outdoors. But whatever butters your muffin, dude. I'll take my Baldur's Gate with enemies that actually put up a half-way decent fight, thank you very much.

This is one of the things that worries me about modern games in general, RPG or no. Game series which once had rich modding communities, such as the Total War series, have increasingly been left out to dry by the developers, owing to the complexity of the engines they use or some such reason. Rome: Total War had Europa Barbarorum, which was nothing short of a work of art. Total War: Rome II will have no such spectacular mods, most likely; it will simply be too difficult to change. Perhaps there's nothing that can be done about this, but if so its a great tragedy.

I can list more game breaking and OP way for items and NPCs but I'll stop at five. Every last one of the things you cited is an optional component. If you don't like it, you don't have to install it. The things you did not cite which are also optional components: 1. Enemy mages can now cast and use spells intelligently. 2. Same goes for enemy clerics. 3. Enemies can no longer be picked off one by one; they call for help, which summons other nearby enemies. 4. Spells like harm, which could drop...say, Firkraag to 1 hit point if you got lucky, are no longer so powerful. 5. Greater Restoration can no longer heal the entire party in one fell swoop. 6. Unbalanced items like the Staff of the Archmagi or the Robe of Vecna are moved farther into the game, or have unbalanced features removed (turning invisible every time you equip the Staff of the Archmagi, for example). 7. Other unbalanced items like arrows of dispelling are removed from being sold over the countertop. 8. You no longer walk into a vampire's lair only to find a big table filled with stakes. 9. Beholders are no longer simply a matter of equipping the Shield of Balduran and letting them kill themselves with reflected attacks. 10. Cowled Wizards now detect spells cast indoors in Athkatla. And so on and so on. Basically, you're cherry picking optional components you think unbalance things and ignoring the ones that make the game more balanced to support your argument.

That's the thing. I don't think a toolkit is necessary. It would be nice, but not necessary. All that's really necessary is that, for those dedicated enough, the game itself be easy to mod. BG2 was cited as an example precisely because it has no toolkit; its just fairly basic stuff to mod, and what is modded can fit with the main game seamlessly.

I'm getting the distinct sense a lot of people here have made some really poor choices in their BG2 modding.

Care to cite some specifics examples of the mods you used? I can't even play vanilla BG or BG2 without Sword Coast Stratagems, Baldur's Gate Trilogy, etc. anymore.

More than new regions or new races added by the developers, this is what I hope for most: a game which is easy, or at least not difficult, to tinker with. This is, for me, at the heart of the Infinity Engine's success. Baldur's Gate 2 still has mods being made for it. Still. The game was released in 2000, for god's sakes. The community survives not just because its a great game, but because its a great game you can rather easily add things to, change rules or change gameplay, fix lingering bugs, add new quests, new characters, new romances, new whatever, all of which can fit more or less seamlessly with the original game (depending on the skill of the modder, of course). Some of the mod work is fantastic, as good as anything in the original game. Some of it is awful, but eh, Sturgeon's Law and all that. What matters is that its a fantastic platform and story on which to build new things. Basically, when they say they're harkening back to the classic days of Baldur's Gate, what I hope for most is that the game world is compelling enough and the game itself simple enough to mod that it has the same kind of longevity we've seen with BG2. Hopefully that isn't an unrealistic expectation.

Also, I understand people who haven't played them but would like to...but if you played them and didn't like them, as some people voted, why are you even here? You've read the description of what this project is aiming to create, right? Weird.

I'm surprised anyone stills plays BG1 on its own. Nowadays it is much, much better played as part of Baldur's Gate Trilogy, which allows you to play the whole series in the BG2 engine...and, just as importantly, opens up BG1 to easy modding. I wouldn't have the patience for vanilla BG1 anymore, but I can play it through BGT happily.

I've never played Wasteland but I'm still rooting for Brian Fargo and Wasteland 2. Even if you aren't familiar with the game, you can still be familiar with the creators or RPGs in general and want to see what a studio can do when freed from the shackles of a publisher telling them what to add or remove and to release by Christmas, finished or not.

I've played Torment a bunch of times. I'm not sure I ever managed to complete an evil playthrough. An evil playthrough in...say, Knights of the Old Republic or whatever can be hilarious in a blackly comic kind of way. An evil Torment playthrough is just plain depressing.