AdaMusic

OK. I am definitely one of these purists. I feel like the combat design of PoE would suit TB combat much better. I am also one of those players who never used scripts in the IE games and enjoyed it. The combat in IE games was much more suitable for real time with pause. I hope they tweak the current combat system instead of switching to TB.

I personaly like that fighters, rogues etc. do not feel like a summon, well no even most summons offered more choices than those classes in BG. I always hated the fighter in BG because it was a autoattack bot. Edit: The BB fighter has two active abilites in the beta. What is wrong with the fighter feeling auto-attackish?

I agree. To make gameplay fun I feel like the devs need to remove the fighter/ranger/rogue abilities OR add really good party AI (with customization). I'd prefer to simplify the classes though.

The ping pong delay is pretty interesting. I'd like stereo delay more.

There was stats rolling in BG; you could defo had a crappy character who sucked at everything and also a really gifted character who was good at everything.

Before we start tuning a lot of values, we need to get the basic bugs fixed. The next update to the BB should clear out the most frustrating aspects of simply selecting, moving, and executing commands reliably. Then we can look at overall combat speed tuning, among other things. Sounds good. I don't mind the combat speed as long as the game feels responsive. Starcraft 2 is a pretty good example where fast tempo combat actually feels really good just because how responsive the game is. In Baldur's Gate 2 the game speed was just too slow - I always crank the FPS up in the config just so that the game runs faster (destroying some cinematics, but defo worth it) and feels more responsive. Will the next patch contain the pathfinding fixes that devs have been talking about? And also, did you cut the grass swaying out of the game or is it just out of the beta?

I honestly don't care much about the naming of stats as long as players have an intuitive feel or a nearly intuitive one. The point is to make something that is fun and enjoyable, not a chore or math homework (though the math isn't too tough to calculate out, not everyone is good at grinding numbers and spitting out hollow dreams). Imnmersion is a fickle thing that usually doesn't pose a problem if you're having fun playing the game. I wont be having fun playing the game if I don't feel immersed into it. In my case, and many others, immersion = fun.

Only I who dislike the magic words in spell casting? Feels cliche.

That is another way of putting it.

Well said. This is really just a small slice of the game and music. Personally I find that game music sticks (or not) with me when I play a game a ton. When I played Skyrim for the first 10 hours, I would have been hard pressed to recall a single melody or phrase. But after 80 hours, I hear the music and it brings back good memories of the game. Ears have muscle memory, and it takes bit of time for that to sink in. For what its worth, I've been composing music as a ghost writer for many years. A couple american TV shows you may or may not heard of, Nikita, Eleventh Hour, Tomorrow People. And many many other smaller things as well. This is just the first "bigger" game that I put my name on. Just cause we're on the topic and you said the name "Skyrim" and others have already linked songs they like, I can name two from that game I loved. But then again come to think of it those are the only two songs of any fantasy game I've played that really jumped out at me. (not that I've played many. I essentially come from Bethesda's games, mind you) I'd rank Morrowind and Oblivion soundtracks on par with what we've heard from PoE thusfar as none of them feature a song I'm just dying to have on my ipod yet they all suit their purpose; the majority of Skyrim songs are much the same in that regard. PART of it I think is just the setting you link up to it. For example Metallic Monks from the Fallout games was a song I never really paid much attention to and often thought of as "that Freeside song," but after it was used in the Lonesome Road trailer it became something I had to download; the trailer gave it meaning for me. Likewise the theme for the Glow (and Mr. House) is made that much better by the fact that you're gonna hear it while exploring old world relics and trying to figure out what's REALLY going on within the setting. And yeah, both of the songs I linked above were songs I encountered in a (rare) emotional moment within Skyrim. (Also for those of you saying "emotional moments in Skyrim? You're lying!!" I would be, but ironically the German voice actors are better in Skyrim's case) Also it's too bad those two songs are the only thing they did right with Skyrim OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH SICK BURN~~~ /revenge for my two-week forum ban at Bethesda Wow. Jeremy Soule is just such an amazing composer. Those tunes are just out of this world. I honestly think this guy is a modern composing genius.

The information and answers given from Sawyer about items, crafting and enchanting in this thread sounds really good. 1 step closer to a masterpiece.

Hahaha. :D True dat. If you adjusted the bonus scale for D&D's attribute system to go from -1 at 3 and +1 at 20, you would get the same outcome you're talking about, though -- and that would be a balance issue, not a fundamental mechanical issue. It may be that Might grants too little of a bonus from point to point, it may be that wizards' spells simply do so much damage that a low bonus doesn't have a large impact on their viability, or it could be something else. Josh, one of the things that I think you aren't taking into account when dealing with PoE numbers in general (i.e. not shifting the numbers to negatives and positives and only making things positive, or large numbers, or decimals) is that these "complex" numbers are easy for the computer to crunch but become hard for the players to comprehend in terms of magnitude and implication. 1000% bonus damage? What does that mean for a player? 10x damage makes more sense. Same with other numbers. I really think you should look back at how you're implementing numbers and while considering that the computer can crunch those numbers for you, people have to actually make informed considerations with those numbers and keeping the numbers manageable will go a long way in usability. Ultimately, present the information in a way that most people could understand it. And it is not only about understand-ability either. Immersion is also important, meaning that the stats, modifiers and "percentages" should have a meaning lore wise. Questions like "why is the stat named might?" should be answered by the lore, not only by the description of the stat itself.

I agree totally. That doesn't mean that lore items with history should be rare. You can have a crappy dagger that has a cute description; still much more interesting than a Sword +1 that you just crafted.

I see your point. I just feel like the best way to do it is to make the "generalist/specialist"-spectrum fit the lore.

Thanks for the answer. Is it possible to finish the game without crafting/enchanting? I feel like both the 2 Witcher games forced the player into crafting, which is something I disliked. In Bethesda games and FNV I feel like it was made optional, which gave the game more depth without taking away immersion/gameplay for those who disliked crafting.

This isn't true. If you look at the enchantment list, you will see that many of the things you mentioned are in the list (e.g. Wounding, Stunning, Draining are all in the weapon list -- only "slow" from your list isn't) and more. Though there aren't currently recipes for them, there are also Spellbind effects for weapons and armor (allow you to cast specific spells while the item is equipped) and Spell Holding for shields (go off when the holder is hit with a Crit). While the core list of effects are likely to remain accessible via the enchantment system, many of the Spellbind and Spell Holding effects are more likely to remain unique properties. We also have to build up to a BG2 level of power. PoE is not in the same "power band" as BG2. It's more comparable to somewhere between BG and IWD. There is already a property available in the Backer Beta called Overbearing that inflicts Prone, which also allows your rogue to gain Sneak Attack bonuses. The Stunning property would also do that, though either can be combined with Vicious to gain additional bonus damage. To those of us who dislike enchanting and crafting, how much focus has items with "personality" (i.e. history focused items) been given? I tend to skip crafting and enchanting in all RPGs where roleplaying is in focus.

Justin I'd love to hear more ambient added to the areas, even if there is music. In BG the inn music/ambient was perhaps abit over the top but I feel like abit in that direction would suit PoE.

Actually, you may be confused. The IE games are the ones that tried to shoehorn things like "Rounds," "THAC0," "Attacks Per Round," "Initiative" (as "Speed"), "Vancian Magic," Die Based Damage, etc etc etc into RTwP. PE was designed from the ground up as a RTwP title. How can I be confused about my feelings? You may be confused though.

So? I can show you a 2010 interview with Mike Laidlaw where he swears that Dragon Age 2 will be a deep and compelling epic. If you dont believe in the developers than why did you spend money on it? Because Avellone, Ziets, Festenmaker. I believe the story,writing,setting will carry the game, no matter what system they use. But i believe the game will be good despite it's system and gameplay and not because of it. Something like PS:T. But i will be thrilled if Sawyer proves me wrong. If he doesn't, and since i disagree with many of his design decisions at a very fundamental level, i will back the next Obs. kickstarter only if they promise a completely diferent system and Sawyer isn't part of the game. Else i'll be happy to buy it when it comes out and i see the reviews and you tube videos. See this is where a lot of the disagreement comes in. Sure I backed the game because of the writing and the writers. They're great and Obsidian rightly has the reputation it has. However, the thing that has made me most consistently excited about the game since the end of the kickstarter has been Josh's design decisions and philosophy. To really see his system design in action, F:NV is the place to go. To apply this to the topic at hand, I felt that the guns and weapons of F:NV, which were to a rather large extent designed by Josh, were very varied and versatile and really felt unique. Many types of guns and a rather large variation within each gun type. Worked great, and I hope we'll be seeing something like it in PoE. See, since i didn't liked New Vegas all that much, and IWD2 was my least favorite IE game as far as combat goes, i'm not a huge fan of Sawyer. And his core design beliefs raises alarms for me. Ironicaly, i don't have as much problem with his attribute or balanced approach like most people here, and i believe that a fun combat could be achieved even with Sawyer's restrictions. Boring itemization, micromanagment nightmare, and not a solid IE/RTS style of combat feedback instead of the NWN2 abortion are the things that would outright kill this product for me, and i think Sawyer wants to fix all that so i'm not overly conserned. I excpect to find the combat "good for what it is", and mostly ignore it. But even if the combat is fun, i would have way more fun with not unified mechanics (working on a per case way instead of Sawyer's universal applicability) hard counters galore, and balance that is a priority only as long as it doesn't infringe on things that make the game interesting (narrative, setting, itemization, interesting magic that isn't damage/buff/debuff) all take priority. So the absence of Sawyer as a Project Lead would improve the next game for me. I believe he is a good system designer on low level (if the broad core system direction isn't dictated by him), and had good creative ideas, but his core philoshophy isn't something i find particularly appealing. And i believe it was a mistake to have him as Lead system designer in a IE successor, as his core design philoshophy is diametricaly opposed to AD&D,which was the core of the IE games. His ideas would work like a charm in a turn based, classless game (which he would design if he was making his dream game), but shoehorned in a RTwP IE game doesn't work so good.( the excess micromanagement i mentioned above, the unified mechanics etc.) I agree. I feel like PoE is being designed as a turn based game that has been awkwardly shifted into "real time space".

I like the Generalist approach as well.... if I want to build it a Generalist. I can build a Generalist Wizard if I want to. But the Druid is a "generalist" by default and will always be a Generalist. Sorry, 3rd post in a row but I wanted to address this yet again. A Wizard can be built specified towards a specific "build", or it can be built towards a Generalist Wizard (if one wants to do that). The Wizard has all the options. The Druid doesn't have any option. These are thoughts regarding the Spell System and gaining Spells as you level up as a Druid, not Attributes/Skills/Talents. Let's turn the entire thing around, rethorically: - How would people feel if the Wizard got all of his/her Spells at Level Up and became a Generalist Wizard by default and you couldn't build the Spell arsenal in any special way? I feel like, lore wise, the druid is more suitable for being a generalist. The wizard study **** and become more wise as the game moves on (i.e. learn more spells), while the druid should be one with the nature ~~ adding some levels shouldn't add too much wisdom (i.e. more spells).

Leave it to the Codex to be the grammar nerds. I think this is supposed to be lie. I'm not sure if it's actual dialogue, but I thought I'd bring it up just in case. Busted! No, was just a lazy post - not in the game. Osvir, to your question, I don't have much say over the skill system other than how we do skill checks in dialogue. But our systems guys will be addressing all the beta feedback they can, so I'm sure it'll get evaluated. This kind of feedback is very useful to us - thanks for taking the time. BTW can you tell the GUI team to add settings for GUI elements (like what you can see in dialogue, ingame combat, etc)?

I like the generalist approach. I don't think the "specialized" approach is any better. BTW the name of this thread (topic) is terrible.

I'd almost say the complete opposite. The reason why games are making more "subtle" music is because game designers/audio designers/people have realized using "pompous" music all the time is even more boring than using the music dynamically; as in using subtle music in calm parts and more pompous music in pompous parts. Crusader Kings 2 is a REALLY bad example of music design in a video game. Even though it has some good music, it is just throwing all kinds of battle marches at you all the time, even if you are not even taking part in any combat at all. Pillars of Eternity is "audio design wise" superior to all Paradox games I've played. However, Paradox is really good at something that Obsidian seem to be lacking: immersion by game design.

I just wrote I was just playing it. o.o Play the game yourself and realize that the amount of QUALITY artwork put into that game is immense. The character generation screen itself has more custom made high quality art than most modern RPGs has. And comments like this is the reason why I think BG2 has to be one of the most overrated RPGs of all time. Some people on this forum really think ad hominem is the best way to chat. "...match...immersive depth of gameplay or dialogue"? Pretty much agree with you accept the excerpt above. BG2 was significantly lacking especially to many of the modern games in depth of gameplay and dialogue. Quest design was fairly linear and Choice and Consequence was very low. Dialogue didn't give the player much opportunity to role play and primarily serves to advance the plot -whose end result is ultimately a FedEx quest or hunt the bad guy. When speaking with said bad guy, dialogue is essentially content that'll lead to combat with rare exceptions of a diplomatic solution. I don't think BG2 was lacking in those aspects, but the other aspects of the game were indeed at a bit higher level. By dialogue I mean that I really love the way they write the dialogue and how the characters are, through the dialogue, given life. In games like Divinity, IWD and Skyrim most characters feel bland, but in BG2 most characters feel like they could be real, given the universe they live in. Also, I think that the combat is far superior to many other games. Yes, it has bugs and exploits, but if you put them aside I don't think the party based pseudo real time strategy RPG combat in the IE games has been matched to this date. Can you give an example of any party based pseudo real time strategy RPGs with better combat systems than the IE games? And comments like this is the reason why I think BG2 has to be one of the most overrated RPGs of all time. I agree - which is weird as I love BG2. But I guess it's only a small portion of its fans that think it was nearly perfect in all aspects. It was great because it was great as a whole, not because every individual component was stellar. I've never heard any fan saying it was perfect in all aspects. In my opinion it is the best game ever made but in the sense that, as you say, the game was great as a whole, not because every individual component was stellar.

So I started to play through BG2 again. And honestly, there is just no way any modern RPG or game will be able to match BG2 in art, immersive depth of gameplay or dialogue. BG2 just has such incredible amount of quality and quantity in gameplay and artwork. Comparing any game, including PoE, to BG2 will just end with huge disappointment. Maybe we should just accept reality and move on? Instead we could focus what PoE could be able to do; engine-wise and story-wise. Currently PoE has a pretty good engine - with a few setbacks: AI and pathfinding. PoE could try to work on the sense of "travel" and immersion by making the engine and combat feel fluid, so that it instead of trying to look like BG2 it will have a few "pros".