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Stun

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Everything posted by Stun

  1. Stun
    No, you can role play him. If I want to make my Little Mac be a Roberto Duran Clone, then I'll concentrate on a heavy Body attack and occasional hooks to the head. But if I want to make my Little Mac be a Floyd Mayweather clone, then I'll play him differently. I'll jab and jab, dodge right, dodge left...etc. Additionally, if I want to role play a fighter who comes back from defeat to win the title, then I'll deliberately lose my first couple of fights, then come back and carve out a win streak to the championship (the game keeps track of your record). Punchout still isn't an RPG, though, because it doesn't have anything resembling a leveling/advancement mechanic. A distinction without a point. And an erroneous one at that. What do you do in Diablo 1 & 2 and in Dungeon Siege 1 & 2 except control a bunch personally faceless toons? Nonsense. You literally play the role of Mario and save the world.
  2. Stun
    Wrong. Punch-Out is about using a combination of jabs, body blows, and uppercuts to knock out a series of opponents, not about role-playing a character how the player sees fit. Nope. Punchout is about Playing a role of a Boxer. Specifically, a Boxer named Little Mac. Jabs, Body Blows, uppercuts and hooks are merely your boxer's tools. And more importantly, you may use those tools however you see fit. Edit: and, hey, the game even tracks your Boxer's win-loss record. <sigh> no it must have more than just that. Almost every game sees you playing some sort of role. But that doesn't automatically make those games RPGs. In the Mario games, you play the role of....Mario. But the Mario games aren't RPGs. Flight Simulators see you playing the role of... a pilot. But I've never heard anyone refer to flight sims as "cRPGs" lol.
  3. Stun
    Punchout is also about role playing. Is Punchout an RPG? No. Because to be an RPG it must have more than that.
  4. Stun
    You'd be shocked by the sheer number of misguided fools who, in fact, would look at Call of Duty and argue that it gets there. And didn't Mike Laidlaw, a Bioware Lead Designer catch heat a couple of years ago for trying to argue that games like Call of Duty and Farmville are "RPGs in essence" or some such drivel?
  5. Stun
    Could you kindly provide an example of a game that does neither of these, that you still consider an RPG, and why you consider it so? There are none. An RPG most definitely must have #1, which is the function of a leveling mechanic. But an RPG Doesn't have to have #2. And many of the classics don't. The Icewind Dales come to mind, as I already mentioned. Many of the gold box games don't. Betrayal at Krondor doesn't. The old NES Dragon Warrior games don't. etc. etc.
  6. Stun
    I don't classify my genres that rigidly. If a game offers me choices about how to build my character, and offers my character choices in the course of the story that have different consequences, then that's an RPG to me. So let me get this straight. You don't define the genres so rigidly, but an RPG to you is a game that 1) gives you character- build choices, and 2) gives Choices in the course of the story. Er... First, that's a pretty darn rigid definition to me. More rigid than any definition I've ever given for an RPG. Second, can #1 even happen without a leveling mechanic? Character building suggests that it's an ongoing process, and you can't do that without some kind of leveling mechanic. (and yes, PrimaJunta, awarding skill/attribute points during the course of the game to represent character progression IS a leveling mechanic. Planescape Torment did something like that) As for your #2, I guess the Icewind Dale Games (especially the first one) aren't RPGs by your definition, since the player really isn't given choices during the course of the story. Not really. There are givens in the industry, and in the subject we're discussing. When someone points to one of the Madden Games (for example) and says: "That's an RPG!", we don't nod our heads and say: Well, Ok, I guess everyone has a different definition of what an RPG is! NO. Instead, we look at that guy and dismiss him away as someone who doesn't know what an RPG is. No need to further promote the watering down, and dumbing down of a genre that's already been bastardized enough over the last decade.
  7. Stun
    Pontificate all you want. You can't have an RPG without a leveling mechanic. Period. It's what separates an RPG from any other game. Or to put it another way, simply playing a "role" does not by itself make a game an RPG. If it did, then there wouldn't be a such thing as a NON-RPG. Even Pac-Man and Street Fighter would be RPGs, since you're literally playing a role in those games.
  8. Stun
    Like... Chess? Check that. Even Chess has classes. You want.... Monopoly. LOL It's not an RPG unless it has leveling of some sort. What you're asking for is a different genre entirely.
  9. Stun
    Ugh. God I hope this isn't true.
  10. Stun
    Being able to convert grazes to misses; being able to disengage without penalty; being able to switch places with people on the battlefield, and probably being able to evade AOE spells like fireball... This doesn't sound like your traditional glass cannon. It sounds like something else. Glass cannons are like Icewind Dale's mages. Give them room and they'll destroy every enemy on the battlefield rather quickly, but if force them into melee and they'll have no answers, no exits, and no chance to survive for longer than a few disastrous (to them) rounds.
  11. Stun
    No. The term you're looking for is Glass Cannon, and it's not the same thing. Or at least not according to this update. There's nothing that suggests that Rogues and Rangers will be less resilient to damage than, say, Priests or Mages, Or Monks.... three classes that aren't in this "Heavy Hitters" category. That's not necessarily true or relevant. I would Hope that we'd get a system where the measurement of "balance" isn't some strict, soulless, one-dimensional ratio of: "The more damage you can do, the more susceptible to damage you're going to be." Because that would be lame, and completely unimaginative. In a *good* system, "Balance" to a Rogue being a "heavy hitter" encompasses much, much more. It includes the ability for some other classes to be more versatile; it includes the ability for non-heavy hitters to be able to acquire more skills, and different types of skills, like AOE attacks, faster regeneration, better support ability, more non-damage debilitating attacks, etc. But really. "Balance" isn't important. This is a party-based, single-player game. The classes should only be "balanced" enough to make you not want to reject them outright when forming a party because they're so worthlessly weak. And that's all. They don't have to all be equally powerful.
  12. Stun
    But, why would you restrict that spell to just the villain? Players can cast Finger of Death, so why can't they cast "Destroy Universe"? Alright. I suppose I could make it an Epic Spell and give it to anyone who gets high enough in level to pick it from the Epic Feats list. But of course, just like finger of death, the target would get a saving throw. Now, would you like to look at the Universe's saves? They're pretty darn good, considering the fact that we're dealing with an Immortal entity that has not failed a Save-or-Die roll in at least 13.6 Billion years. That said, the Multi-verse is malleable in D&D, and some Deities and other powerful beings (like Demon Princes and Arch Devils) have the ability to make and unmake their own planes at will. Thus if You're an epic mage, and went to the 1st plane of Hell and decided to destroy a universe within it, and that universe failed its save and died, your celebration party would not last very long. Bel, and probably Asmodeus would undo your damage first, then come after you. And buddy, they Both have the ability to insta-kill you without a saving throw. No, it's more like, since there's a multi-verse, anyone with Plane travel abilities can simply planeshift to somewhere else.... so as to not die from the cataclysm. Planeshift is a 5th level Cleric spell, btw, and Astral Projection is a 9th level Mage spell. ...and its chances of failing. Yes. D&D already has Weapons designed to slay specific races. And Spells designed to slay specific races that the mage encounters. The question is, would Mystra Allow a Spell that instantly destroys all members of a race everywhere? Tough to say since, again, we're dealing with a multi-verse and when you move from one plane of existence to another, magic warps according to the laws of that plane, so I don't see how a spell designed to wipe out, say, every Sabre-toothed Tiger everywhere, would be successful. It would probably succeed in killing every Sabre-toothed Tiger in the Prime material plane, but if there's a pack of Sabre-toothed Tigers living on Mount Olympus, they'd probably be unaffected, since No evil can enter that plane, including evil magic, which This spell certainly is. In fact, it would probably end up having the opposite effect on Mount Olympus. It'd turn that pack of Sabre-toothed tigers into super-vitality endowed immortal beasts.
  13. Stun
    Yes. Although if my assistant came up with a spell like that, I'd design an entire story plot around it and only give the Villian the ability to cast it. By the way, D&D already has a built in passive counter to the spell: "Destroy Universe": Plane Travel.
  14. Stun
    Wait a minute. I get what you're saying now. If it's a low fantasy setting, Like the Witcher games, then the magic has to be low key... subdued. Basic. But if It's a High fantasy setting, then magic can be profound, since chances are, the conflict itself is magical. OK, that makes sense. After all, Low Fantasy plots, like interstate Politics, become a pointless sideshow when the common Adventurer can summon Pit Fiends, and wipe out everyone at city hall with a Horrid Wilting spell. Such spells simply can't work in a setting like that. They'd be way too unbelievable. Such spells can only work in High Fantasy, where the player witnesses fantastical things daily. So what are we getting in PoE? My guess is the latter: High fantasy. We are, after all, dealing with Souls, and 15 level Mega dungeons. And Chris Avellone's writing. Therefore, Magic had better be profound. Otherwise it won't fit the setting.
  15. Stun
    Can you give me an example of a game that contained MAGIC and also had a world that behaves as ours does? No no, scrap that. You're not getting off that easy. Lets stay on topic. Give me an example of a game that had DEATH SPELLS and also had a world that behaves as ours does.
  16. Stun
    Ultimately, every line in game design's drawn based on personal opinion. There's no other way to do it without the designer pretending some knowledge of objective truth they don't have. Computer game design maybe. But in Pen and paper, the rules are laid out quite objectively (in fact, they're straight up black and white) and then the DM is told to take it, leave it, or adjust it to fit his own campaign. Right. But again, you're not discussing the system's rules here, you're discussing campaign worlds or "settings". Two very different things in D&D.
  17. Stun
    I'd draw it at mitigation possibilities. My rule would be: there should be a way to protect against anything. Thus, if I was designing a system, and my assistant came up with a spell there was no defense against, I'd either scrap it outright, or I'd design the defense against it. No need to draw arbitrary lines based on personal opinion (what you've been admittedly doing on this thread) Sounds like basic, run of the mill combat to me. Someone takes a swing at you - Duck Someone is ducking - try to figure out his rhythm and catch him in between ducks Someone realizes that you figured out his rhythm - Decides to Block instead of duck Someone Blocks - Goad him into attacking you Someone attacks you - duck. or block.
  18. Stun
    Then tell it like it is: You have a problem with the concept of magic itself. In ANY system its in. After all, no one in the real world has the ability to magically shoot bolts of electricity, or fireballs, or pretty much ANYTHING. Sure it does. Even In the forgotten Realms (one of the Worst campaign worlds ever created using D&D's rule system) Whole empires have gotten wiped out because of magic. In Baldur's gate 2, Bioware enforced laws against using magic in the streets of Athkatla. In Mask of the Betrayer, Obsidian developed a magic-based addiction system. D&D has whole classes devoted to anti-magic and hunting down magic practitioners. D&D has an alignment system and Priests who cast spells opposed to their alignment lose their spell casting ability. Not that any of this matters. D&D is a rule system. It's not up to the rules system to design the societies and worlds and police them. It's up to the creator of those worlds. Ooh, comedy relief. And I was just about to point out how boring debating you was. But to answer your question, I imagine Society would treat the caster of a finger of death the same as someone who walks into a bar and unleashes a meteor swarm.
  19. Stun
    By all means, Explain this for me, because you're not making any sense. In D&D, powerful people have the means to instantly kill other people. Similarly, in the real world Powerful people also have the ability to instantly kill people. So unless you're going to argue that Reality is unbelievable, or "isn't the world's strong suit", you don't have an argument. But Like I said, please explain what you're trying to say, because it doesn't make any sense. What's that got to do with instant death spells in a fantasy RPG? Straw man. Assumes that "anything goes" is the reason Death spells are put in a world. When it's NOT. Then you don't have a point. There is an insta-death spell in D&D called Phantasmal Killer. What it does is it conjures a scary event/image/thought/whatever, In the victim's mind. If the victim disbelieves, then he may just dismiss it away as a nightmare. But if he believes, he will suffer a heart attack and die - the spell will literally scare him to death. Now, we don't need to ask ourselves whether this "hangs together in the game campaign". We can simply point to THE REAL WORLD, where this phenomenon can actually happen in the hands of a skilled Psychiatrist. LOL The reason why Josh said there wasn't going to be Death Spells in PoE is NOT because of verisimilitude. It's because Josh doesn't like "chance" and "luck" and other things that cause players to reload. Make no mistake about this, if you REALLY believe the stuff you're saying, then you're probably going to cringe repeatedly at the magic in POE. Hell, even some of the NON magicial abilities that have been revealed to us are well WELL beyond your stated threshold. You know, like Rogues being able to instantly trade places with their allies on the battlefield... via TELEPORTATIONAL TRANSFERANCE.
  20. Stun
    Good god, Lephys, can't you go a single post without utterly misconstruing what others are saying? The explanation of Finger of Death is not "*shrug* anything goes!". It is a nature based invocation that causes a victim to suffer a heart attack. As a spell in a system that has magic, This is no less logical than a wizard being able to shoot giant fireballs from his fingertips; Or waving his hand a causing demons to appear out of thin air to attack his enemies.
  21. Stun
    By the criterion of internal consistency, "halfway decent campaign world" rules out D&D. It's fun, it's complex, there's a lot to dig into, but it does not all hang together very well at all, as one would expect from the pattern of its evolution. Nor does the mythology of the real world really earn a lot of points for internal consistency. First of all, There's nothing internally inconsistent about the way D&D applies its rules for Insta-death spells. They function precisely the same as any other binary spell effect in the system (like save or be stunned; save or be held; save or be turned into a squirrel; Save or lose your left arm; Save or go to sleep; and even Save or take full damage) So I have no idea what you're talking about. Second, I cited real world mythology because you claimed such a thing does not exist to explain Insta-death spells in D&D. But it DOES, as I've shown. Deal with it. Third, and finally, Fantasy role playing games are not supposed to emulate Physics, chemistry, 21st century jurisprudence, 16th century medicine or psychology or any other laws of science and society. Go play a first person shooter, or a flight Simulator or something if FANTASY is too unbelievable for your tastes. LOL wut? So...Play a warrior then. No one's forcing you to practice Necromancy in your game.
  22. Stun
    I'm not advocating that killing things be the exclusive source of XP. I'm asking that it be included on the List of ways to gain XP.
  23. Stun
    Or none of the above, if you have a marginally intelligent DM running a halfway decent campaign world. Insta-death spells and effects of the various kinds are explained quite well in the lore, actually. Finger of Death, for example, Originally existed exclusively as a 7th level spell for Druids. Its "magic" is strictly divine based, and its function is to stop an enemy's beating heart. Literally. It forces a fatal cardiac arrest. According to the lore, its success or failure is dependent on whether the Druid's patron Deity has judged that the target has done enough harm to nature to warrant an immediate death resulting from a cessation of a major bodily function. In the game world, this is manifested via a saving throw, and of course, the Druid administering the God's will. Some of the others, like Wail of the Banshee, Vorpal Blades, Flesh to Stone, and a Monk's Quivering Palm do not need D&D lore to support them, as they all exist in very common Greek, Roman, Norse, or Chinese Mythology and AD&D just borrows them. They're also not that easy for a character to have in his arsenal, as the spells require rather expensive material components which get consumed upon their casting, the weapons are rare to the extreme and have their own intelligent wills, and of course a Monk in pen and paper cannot even advance to 13th level to get Quivering Palm unless he defeats the guy above him in rank in a duel.
  24. Stun
    Both are harsh, motivation-killing drawbacks. I never *ever* used flesh to stone or disintegrate in BG2 because of the dire consequences of loot getting destroyed.
  25. Stun
    By patterning of saving throws & defenses. If another PC would have zero, or essentially zero chance of surviving a single ability, then it is too powerful. I also like (in this case) powerful spells to have certain risks involved, like rolling against a consequence table for failing to meet a skill check at time of casting. Or, less elaborately, they could just ramp up the friendly fire mechanic. <---- they dropped the ball on this with death spells. There were 2 AOE death spells in the IE games. 1) Death Spell and 2) Wail of the Banshee. Both were party friendly when they didn't need to be. BG2 though, did incorporate consequences for Disintegrate and Flesh to Stone. If you killed an enemy with these two, you often lost the loot they were carrying.
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