[Josh Sawyer Explains: How to Balance an RPG - Extensive Editorial at Kotaku]

Just because magic was overpowered in BG2 doesn't mean pure fighers were terrible.  Pure fighters were absoultely fine in BG2. They still had insanse HP growth, they still had excllent damage in range and in melee.  In fact, one of the best NPCs in BG2 (ToB) was a pure fighter.

Agreed, But Seravok doesn't count

 

An innate, no saving throw, no MR-check random insta-kill chance per hit? one that's cumulative with Vorpal weapons like Ravager and Axe of the Unyielding? If all fighters got that then all fighters would be overpowered in Bg2. They don't, though.

[Appeal to Obsidian: Don't Change PoE Abilities]

I don't see beefier abilities opposed to more and better talents at all. Why not have both?

I believe the answer most people give to this is that if you beef up the attributes, you will be placing too much weight on customization at level 1, since that is when you're point-buying all your stats. What these people want is for the customization process to start out light and get heavier as you're leveling. Thus they propose a muted, less impactful Attribute system but a far more defined talent system.

 

I see their argument and all the why's and how's of it. I just don't agree. For a few reasons. First (yes I know I sound like a tiresome broken record but I'm gonna say it anyway. just ignore it if you're sick of seeing it) This is supposed to be a spiritual successor to the IE games, not Skyrim with classes. How many hundreds more miles away from the IE games do we have to travel before the Gromnirs are happy and the rest of us feel authentically misled by the kickstarter pitch? Second, what's wrong with impactful, meaningful level 1 customization anyway? That wasn't really explained to us in the OP. Does the beginning of the game not count or something? Will a stronger attribute system prevent more meaningful customization later? Are you afraid that some players will later regret their level 1 choices and so the attribute system must remain virtually meaningless to prevent these role-playing casuals from "mis-building" their own characters??

 

Ok, lets take a step back and identify what we see as things that need work:

 

1) Many people here and elsewhere have noted that the current attribute system needs tweaking as it doesn't seem to make much of a difference to any build in it's current minimal state

2) The talents that were shown to us in the beta could definitely use some "Oomph", not to mention a heavy dose of creativity.

 

So...how about we fix both, instead of just fixing 1 and then pretending that the other is good design?

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If you dont believe in the developers than why did you spend money on it?

That's a good question. I would have to say that I'm a trusting sort by nature. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt at first. Of course, once they Burn me, I never trust them again. And that's why I'm not buying DA:I or anything else from bioware ever again. No matter how many times I hear them swear that it's going to be the biggest, bestest game they've ever made.

 

But enough of that

 

It would be nice if you could break your enchanted items down to their components if you want to transfer one to a new item, effectively losing money invested and for the item. Not realistic but eh

That's reverse engineering. It's totally realistic, actually (well, at least as realistic as enchanting items can ever be)

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I ignore your first sentence because it would result in a endless debate.

An endless debate? A simple link to an article from 2000/2001 citing BG2's P.I. Army Exploit would end the debate outright. Since it would confirm your claim. But you won't find such an article, or even references to such an article, because none exist, because these are the types of exploits that gamers discover in games only after *years* of playing the hell out of it.

 

Nice try though!

 

 

http://kotaku.com/ho...-rpg-1625516832

 

Thats the Josh Sawyer balance article. You can read their that they did zero balance bevor the beta. The difference is that they try to balance the game.

So?

 

I can show you a 2010 interview with Mike Laidlaw where he swears that Dragon Age 2 will be a deep and compelling epic. I'm not seeing your point. Trying to balance a game does not instantly mean the game will be balanced, and it sure as hell doesn't mean the game won't be riddled with balance-killing exploits.

 

And...it doesn't matter anyway. This is a Single player game. Balance isn't that important. Neither is the need to shackle the powergamers and hand out lollies to all players who play all classes because...FAIR!

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Is there some rule that every thread turn into a slap fight over Shadows of Ann?

 

No, just the ones Stun posts in. :runs:

 

Hey, start from page 1 and read this thread. The BG2 slap fest was going on way before I got here.

[Itemization feels bland]

Dude the caster army thing was mentioned in reviews when the game came out

No. it wasn't. We cannot have a debate when one side's argument consists of nothing but silly made up claims.

 

 

Baldur's gate is basically a sandbox full of tools that no one ever tried to balance. That is not what this game is all about and it was obvious from the very first minute of the kickstarter campaing. Afaik they talked a lot about all that stuff and why they dont want it in PoE. If you like that kind of game, PoE is not for you and they explicitly informed everyone about it multible times.

I beg your pardon, but you have no idea how unbalanced and exploitable PoE is going to be.

 

After just 1 day of Playing the beta I personally discovered 1 balance killing exploit, 1 overpowered weapon type, and about half a dozen class based imbalances.

[Itemization feels bland]

 

 

Go play the game on easy mode if you dont want a challange and fuel your power-mad fantasies.

Aaah but that's the thing about BG2. You can play it on Insane and exploit-stuff like having your Simulacrum create an army of project images that spam the battlefield with timestop scrolls and Staff of the magi attacks, suddenly become so much fun to do.

 

It only reveals how simple the combat system actually was.

 

I'm calling your bluff. You're full of Sh*t and even you know it

 

1) we're discussing exploits that are discovered after several playthroughs of a time honored classic. (also, unless you're metagaming or insanely lucky, you won't even FIND the Staff of the Magi on your first playthrough)

2) And even if someone were genius enough to discover such exploits on a first playthrough, it still doesn't render combat trivial, since BG2 is a game that crawls with hard counters to everything. Summoning an army of yourself works only sometimes. other times the enemy simply tosses a Death spell and the army disappears. "Exploiting" celestial fury + improved haste works sometimes. Other times the enemy just casts maze on you and *poof* you're no longer attacking him with Celestial Fury. you're no longer even there. Double clicking every 3 seconds on the Staff of the magi in order to become invisible works sometimes, other times the enemy has true sight active and suddenly you realize you're wasting your time doing USELESS things. etc. etc. etc.

3) Even Josh Sawyer agrees that BG2's combat isn't trivial, and that it can be quite harsh with its frequent save-or-die, long lasting stuns, chance, etc. and has promised a more forgiving experience for PoE.

 

 

 

 

Its more like you dont get that different people have different views on things and that your point of view is not the absolute thruth about things. Reading through the beta forum suggests that the majority tends to favor a balanced game over a rollercoaster ride of expoits and imbalance.

If we were just dealing with "viewpoints" and "Opinions" here, I wouldn't bother responding to your blather. But You're making *false* claims. factually disprovable false claims....about one of the greatest RPGs ever created. And so I'm here to correct you.

[Itemization feels bland]

Go play the game on easy mode if you dont want a challange and fuel your power-mad fantasies.

Aaah but that's the thing about BG2. You can play it on Insane and exploity-stuff like having your Simulacrum create an army of project images that spam the battlefield with timestop scrolls and Staff of the magi attacks, suddenly become so much fun to do.

 

You don't *get* BG2. That's your problem.

 

There IS no trivializing combat in Bg2, because the bestiary is vast enough to insure that there's no magic bullet that penetrates everything.

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So now you start to insult me because of the lack of arguments?

LOL make that Blind Freak.

 

There isn't a single sentence in your last post that I (and others) haven't already thrashed more than once.

 

Go Play Dragon Age 2 or something and stop wasting your time with us. It has the rigidly policed, constrictingly balanced, totally unpowergameable, utterly-railroaded classes, abilities, and items that would make you scream "YES!!!!!".

[Itemization feels bland]

The powergaming is beyond the scope of what should be allowed. If a game lacks any challange because you can powergame easily to levels that makes any content trivial than something is wrong. We dont talk here about power gaming like in most RPG'S where the maximum you can archive is beeing a good percentage better than your average hero. Their are tons of items, spells and class combinations in BG2 that make people question the thought process of the devs. Some people here act like that are minor balance issues. Stuff like robe of vecna that lets you instacast many spells or project images that lets you cast an army of yourself is not imbalanced its just broken.

LOL Freak.

[Itemization feels bland]

 

You can argue that these weapons are imbalanced, and I won't totally disagree, but...you didn't. You had to get carried away with the BG2 bashing and take it 20 notches further to claim that they rendered combat trivial. which is false.

 

 

 

You know you can use the robe and staff on everything that can multiclass, ever played something like a kensai/mage? All those options are insane power gamer options.

 

So?

 

PS: I'm not letting you move the goalposts. You can certainly powergame in Bg2. Who would ever argue otherwise? Also, What's your point?

 

 

 

Its not a real tradeoff because that would mean that risk/reward is kinda balanced which is not.

LOL

 

Is there some CRPG dictionary of terms that you're getting this from? It's a tradeoff, period. The game doesn't let fighters use the Staff of the magi unless they take mage levels. And when they do, they will not be as effective in melee combat as a pure fighter, nor as effective at casting spells as a pure mage. But they can now use the staff of the magi....but that's only if they wish to forgo dual-wielding 2 powerful weapons at the same time for extra attacks, or the AC and magical defensive bonuses from wielding a the shield of Balduran, or the shield of harmony

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You dont need to give it a real mage, multiclassing is the key here. You could get one mage level or you could multiclass with thief to get the "use every item in the game" ability.

Then bash Multi-classing, because THAT'S your culprit here, not the mage-weapon itself. Besides, if you're multi-classing then you've willingly gimped your mage progression in favor of being a better in Melee. That's also a balance in the system...or tradeoff, if you wish to use a more technical term.

 

But you haven't trivialized combat with the staff of the magi, you've just changed things up a bit. There are better weapons for a mage multi-class.... and better weapon styles (dual wielding 2 powerful weapons then casting improved haste, is a far more useful in Bg2)

[Itemization feels bland]

It just baffles me that people call items, spells or classes that trivialize any encounter balanced.

Gonna devote this to it's own post because it breaches the ceiling of sanity and rises to the stratosphere of crazy-speak.

 

None of the items you listed trivialize combat in BG2 in the slightest. Lets go down your list.

 

The Staff of the Magi - usable only by the one class designed to suck monkeyballs in melee. -And- it specifically endowed with properties that will only be useful against other spell casters. Thus if you send your mage ahead to whack away at a vampire or a golem, or a fire giant, or a dragon, or a mind flayer, or a beholder, the ensuing battle will hardly be "trivial"...except maybe for the enemy. Mages should be casting spells instead. The caveat to this is that Thieves get UAI very late in the game and thus they can also use the Staff of the Magi. Of course, the game won't let you backstab with it, so its invisibility property is useless. And anyone dumb enough to equip their thief that late in the game with a 2-handed weapon that 1) a mage should be using, and 2) can't be used for backstabbing, Is an Idiot and his opinions on triviality are rendered irrelevant because of that alone. But mostly, the Staff of the Magi is really nice to have, and it's one of the 4 or 5 most powerful weapons in SoA. But it doesn't make anything trivial.

 

 

Cloak of Mirroring--just like the Staff of the Magi in that it is designed to ONLY be effective against enemy spell casters. it will not help you against a dragon. It will not help you against golems or vampires, or mindflayers, or shadowfiends, or anyone who tries to take your head off in melee. And even against spell casters, it won't protect you against the nastier stuff. The claim that it trivializes combat is most definitely NOT true. Even if we assume that BG2 isn't a party based game and only 1 person in your party can wear the cloak of mirroring.

 

Staff of the Ram -- not sure why this is even here. You only get it in Throne of Bhaal...when it is far too late to be discussing trivial combat (as if your sorcerer's 6 copies of Summon Planetar, and your thief's 15 spike traps are somehow overshadowed by a LOUSY quarterstaff that can knock people back 10% of the time) But lets talk some more about that knock-back ability. Why do you find it powerful? It's the opposite of powerful. it's annoying and it HINDERS combat effectiveness.

 

Celestial Fury -already talked about this. But if you wish to gimp your character by taking points in katana just so you can reap its limited benefits (I'll take the Flail of the Ages over it any day), your loss. It's not even a powergamer's weapon. and it most certainly doesn't make ANYTHING trivial.

 

You can argue that these weapons are imbalanced, and I won't totally disagree, but...you didn't. You had to get carried away with the BG2 bashing and take it 20 notches further to claim that they rendered combat trivial. which is false.

[Appeal to Obsidian: Don't Change PoE Abilities]

power don't equal more fun.

Neither does decimal point, spreadsheet balance.

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So just equiping a item in the game and using it is exploiting for you?

What?

 

I don't recall discussing the issue of exploitation at all. Only your silly claim that the staff of the magi = automatic win against Mage bosses. (in fact, it's suicide in many mage battles, since relegating your mage to melee when he could be using his spells instead is a MORONIC strategy to use against mages in BG2)

[Appeal to Obsidian: Don't Change PoE Abilities]

let's start with an assumption that people don't necessarily want more powerful characters but rather want more opportunity for unique and diverse builds, yes?

Well no, I wouldn't want to start with that assumption. For 2 reasons.

 

1) Beefing up the effects of the attributes would not only lead to powerful characters. It would also lead to severe penalties for people who decide to dump some of those stats in order to max out the others.

 

2) If we don't necessarily want more powerful characters then why are we asking for the talents to be beefed up?

 

 

In any event, I mostly agree with the rest of your post, which is why I didn't bother addressing it. Something should indeed be done to make the talents stand out, be more interesting, more unique, more meaningful, and to give us a reason to look forward to that next level up. But I'm looking at the big picture. Right now the entire system... the stats, the spells, the talents and even item properties, feel very soulless and...BORING... If one needs a spreadsheet to determine the difference between someone who's 1st level and someone who's 8th level, we've got a friggin problem: Josh Sawyer has sacrificed fun to the altar of his lord Balance.

 

THAT is the assumption I want to begin with, and then work from there to propose solutions.

[Experience point system in the beta and onwards]

If resource management was the only reason they went with this system, then they did not go with this system because they thought it would be good for the final product.

Sure they did. Being able to inexpensively control level advancement pace in an open world game is, to some people (like Josh "Balance" Sawyer), good for the final product.

 

Have you not been listening even to what your side has been saying in these half-dozen or so 20+ page threads?

[Appeal to Obsidian: Don't Change PoE Abilities]

nevertheless, the way in which we envision PoE character development being best improved is not by inflating the value o' ability scores, but rather by making traits more significant.

Why are you presenting this as an Either/Or, when we could have both and the entire character customization process would only *benefit* from it?

[(DPS) vs (Accuracy - Deflection). Here's the maths. Enjoy.]

EDIT: This probably won't be coming for a few days. Will take some time to get right. Is there interest in something like this though? Have y'all enjoyed having this first set of calculations as a reference and would you enjoy having a more comprehensive set?

Considering all the likes and commentary you received from your initial graphical analysis, I'd say absolutely.

 

Plus, it's why we're here. When discussing the function of the Beta, Josh Sawyer instructed us to "throttle the mechanics". Well, what's what you're doing. So keep doing it.

[Experience point system in the beta and onwards]

Make up your mind.  Did they deliberately make a subpar system just to save resources or not?  Do they truly see no merit in the system for gameplay and RP?

Obsidian has decided to scrap kill XP because It's far easier for them to control and balance the pace of level advancement in an open world when they don't have to account for the XP of every enemy kill in every crevice of every room in every map...for every difficulty setting. Instead, they can simply hand place specifically calculated XP rewards where they wish and then add it all up and make sure the XP cap isn't reached by anyone when they still have 50% of the game left to play. (Example: what kill xp did to BG1)

Find the contradiction. I. explained. the. benefit. And this explanation did not deviate one iota even 5 posts later.

 

In my opinion, taking the easier route here DID sub-par the system, since I want XP for killing things. But for someone like you who sees kill XP as a roadblock to role playing, removing it does not sub-par the system at all. It apparently does the opposite: makes it better.

[Experience point system in the beta and onwards]

Soooooo ... let's start over.  Why did they go with this system?  Please list all the reasons, since you're the expert.

Saving dev resources is a multi-faceted merit. Aside from simply saving money and time and facilitating balance (they only have 4 million to work with) it also means they can spend those saved resources on enriching the game's other features.

 

As for other merits, I don't recall claiming there were several reasons why they scrapped kill XP. That's your drama-queen mind's conclusion jumping.

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Even if "no unique enchantments" stays till release, Obsidian can still make it so that Uniques have higher numbers on their enchantments than you could ever hope yo reach with crafting, thus making them still enjoyable.

This new Sword I found gives me +20 to accuracy. That's twice as good as the +10 accuracy enchantment I had!

 

That sure is exciting

[Itemization feels bland]

Its NOT exploiting if I equip a staff and automaticaly win ANY mage boss fight, which means almost all bossfights.

Hyperbole, thy name is Mayama.

 

 

Celestial fury: Katana that stuns if you fail a save, combine it with a spell that lowers save throws and you can stun lock almost any boss in the game

Celestial fury is edged. It's +3. It's magical. Its major affliction is a mind effecting property, And it's a katana.

 

That's 5 strikes against it. It's useless against Clay golems, Enemies requiring +4 or better weapon to hit (read: Kangaxx, Demogorgon, Mellisan, Mantled mages) You can't hit any mage with it until you first dispel their Protection from magical weapons buff. Many enemies are immune to stun in BG2, and if you want to be effective with it even against trash mobs, you're going to need to spend proficiency points in Katana, which is a moronic thing to do since there are no other good Katanas in the game.

 

That's called balance. And we can apply that to every weapon you cited, as well as every magic item in BG2 that you forgot to cite.

[Experience point system in the beta and onwards]

So 2 years ago, they decided to half-ass the central reward system for the game for the sole reason that they didn't want to spend money or time on it. In the meantime, new systems have been added and others cut, but all the while they've stood firm that the XP system must remain fundamentally and objectively bad.

Bad? It's only bad if you're one of the rejecters of the system. Do YOU see it as bad?

 

 

No one on the development team actually believes that there are advantages to this system, despite the many arguments in place showing that many of the players do.  Got it.  

Straw man. I just listed one of the advantages to the system, and like any drama queen, you saw it and went into a hissy fit.

[More like BG2 please]

as for d&d 5th or next or whatever it is now, we played through the dragonspear castle stuff and even the murder in baldur's gate release and anybody familiar with d20 is gonna have a very shallow learning curve. let's not pretend 5th edition is a reinventing o' the wheel rather than a retool o' d20. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Thank God.