Stun
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Posts posted by Stun
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Attempting to separate nostalgia from the equation suggests you weren't around for even one day of the kickstarter. They sold this project on Nostalgia. It wouldn't have generated half its funding without it. If you really only backed this project for the purposes of getting "something new" (which is a Bullsh*t claim and everyone here knows it), then one wonders why you didn't just throw your money at any of the several dozen super-high publisher funded titles coming out this year and next year. They'll be doing "New" a wee bit better than any $4 million project ever will. They must. It's the main focus of their $50 million+ budgets.And lastly, we backed PoE as a spiritual successor to the IE RPGs, not as a port or emulation of the IE engine. We're in brave new, D&D-less territory and I am fine by that. We have the good folks at Overhaul Games to fulfill that nostalgic scratch for us grizzled dungeoneers. I want to try something new, not a re-hash of the IE games.
But that doesn't matter anyway, does it. Kill XP has exactly NOTHING to do with Nostalgia or the IE games. It's just as much a staple of modern RPGs as it is the old ones.
Wait... what? A poll that shows a majority in favor of combat XP undermines the combat XP position? In what alternate reality? Oh, by the way, This is Obsidian we're talking about. The same company that scrapped their Weapon Degradation design for PoE, citing fan disapproval, on LESS than what we're seeing here.As a nod to the guy up above who rightly pointed out that this forum provides one of the few ways that the devs can get feedback, I will say it makes sense that the designers at least have some consideration to what folks say, but this poll does more to undermine the combat XP position than to support it.
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I'm pretty sure the bulk of the gripes on this thread (and all the other XP threads) is about those developer goals themselves, and how presumptuous they are. More to the point: Josh believes that a quest-only XP system will satisfy all playstyles. But if the players themselves are in the middle of playing this 60 hour game and they feel that all the combat they're frequently forced to engage in feels pointless/unrewarding, then it won't matter whether or not Josh's stated goals have actually been met. His design has failed already."he" it is.
keep in mind that we have said, "given the impossibility o' replacing the existing xp mechanic with a different xp mechanic that achieves obsidian's espoused goals (i.e. encouraging diversity of play style, balance, simplicity) in the time remaining before the release of PoE," with only the most minute and insignificant variations many times. we can repost each iteration if you wish. am thinking that if you is being fair, you will agree that on this point we have not been unclear. at this point in development, producing an xp mechanic that achieves obsidians's espoused goals AND would also include kill xp is simply not possible.
we also recognized that you do not believe that obsidian's goals is justified. we were not unclear on this point and we can also repost quotes on this point if you so desire.[/size][/font]
is a fundamental difference o' opinion as to what goals should be pursued. nevertheless, as we has been explaining ad nauseum to zan, neither you, nor anybody else, has ever suggested that in the time remaining, obsidian could produce an alternative xp mechanic that included per kill xp, that achieved their espoused goals o' balance, diversity o' gameplay styles and simplicity. there simple is no argument on this point. zan chose obfuscation and denials rather than a simple admission that your proposed exp mechanic were, from obsidian’s pov AND their stated goals, not a viable replacement.
again,we think it is complete fair to argue whether obsidian goals is valid, but zan were holding you up as an example for something you never actual claimed could be achieved. bad on him. hopefully you aren't actual defending him, 'cause if so, bad on you too.[/size][/font]
HA! Good Fun!
Perception is reality in this case and this is something we're going to have to wait and see about, I suppose. But I was *there* when Bobby Null came to these forums during the kickstarter and took feedback from us on a possible Megadungeon to rival Durlag's tower and Watcher's keep - an idea he said the dev team was discussing. And now, a couple years later, we've got a 15 level megadungeon. There is NO WAY they're gonna succeed in recapturing the feel/pace/magic of those dungeon experiences by simply tying everything to Quest XP-only.
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^that's already the system in PoE. The Cyclopedia fills in the blanks for each enemy as you fight them. if you have a high lore skill it fills up faster. if you have a low lore skill you have to kill more of the specific type of enemy to get the same amount of information.
The only difference is that you don't get any bonuses against that enemy in combat once you have all the information on them. Thus it isn't a trade off. It's also not a tradeoff because feverishly going around killing things just so you can achieve a completely unabridged Cyclopedia will do exactly nothing to advance you from level 1 to level 2.
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LOL terrible analogy.
Yeah all those people saying herp derp they had better AI in BG2. Why is the AI so ****ty in PoE 15 years later. Its like saying herp derp why cant you build a proper moon rocket... they build the first one 50 years ago!I think you are wrong with your basic assumption that PoEs combat is inferior to that of any other IE game, and nothing what you could say is going to change that. Shocking, I know.
Sensuki asking Josh Sawyer about the quality of PoE combat in his RPGCodex interview:
Josh: "Honestly, I think it will take us a while to exceed the complexity of IWD2 fights. IWD2 and BG2 were built with a lot of tried-and-true scripting functions that programmers and designers developed over previous titles and expansions. Like any other feature, AI in PoE is being built from the ground up, so we have to add layers of complexity over time."
We've got dune buggies driving around on Mars now. We didn't have the technology for that 50 years ago.
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Indeed. So lets all stop pretending that "system abuse" is some sort of factor here. It isn't.On one hand, I think the 'you must do all quests' argument due to 'quest' only experience is ridiculous. On the other hand, if I'm to be intellectually honest, that feeling could also be turned around on folks who don't like combat XP because it encourages folks to commit 'genocide.'
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No it doesn't. It merely proves false the claim (yours) that the quest can be completed via stealth, since combat is required before reaching the ogre, and more relevantly, before receiving a single experience point for that quest. If you wish to change your False claim to one more accurate like: "Well, OK, The Quest-XP only system may require some players to alter their playstyles sometimes in order to receive XP. No system is perfect heheheh", then fine. Not sure your ego will allow that though.
which complete ignores that we can sneak past all the spiders in the cave.Nope. You can't sneak past the spiders, as they *physically* block the entrance to the ogre cave.
It's not a matter of trying. They block a map transition. You can lure them away from it then try run in without fighting them (not sure if that works), but regardless, that will require that you deactivate stealth.admitted, we haven't tried to stealth past the ones outside the cave.
It does for your claim.*shrug* doesn't matter.
You can't sneak past the spiders, so your question is meaningless and the point remains: There are no quests in this beta that can be completed via stealth, So the claim that the Quest-XP system rewards all playstyles is false and one who chooses Stealth as a playstyle cannot receive XP for it in this beta. He must first change his play style. In fact, even if you COULD stealth past all the insects and spiders, you STILL can't complete that quest with stealth since the game forces a *visible* confrontation with the ogre AND forces a dialogue with him.if we sneak past spiders and then kill or use dialogue to finish the ogre quest, why should we be penalized?
In order for a stealth playstyle to work in your system, the quest itself has to be specifically geared towards stealth. ie. It has to be, like, a heist-type quest where you are tasked with recovering/stealing an item and returning to the quest giver without being seen or forced into any confrontation with anyone along the way.
Those are *YOUR* perameters, Gromnir. That is the Bar you set previously when we were debating Combat XP, when I was pointing out to you why it's fundamentally impossible to reward XP for stealthing past encounters in a combat XP-only system.
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^No. In a balance-first type of game, you either 1)keep your balance and avoid falling or 2) you will lose your balance but land on both feet. No pillows needed in either case
Question: will we be able to enchant the piglet?
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Nope. You can't sneak past the spiders, as they *physically* block the entrance to the ogre cave. They must be removed if you wish to enter the cave and complete the Ogre quest. You also can't stealthily complete the Dragon Egg quest because the conversation with the mercenary party that guards the nest auto-triggers when you approach. The missing daughter quest can't be completed via stealth due to dialogue triggers as well, and the Nymtha quest can't be completed via stealth because first it requires dialogue, and then if the dialogue fails, it requires combat.sure we can complete quest via stealth. we can stealth past bugs and spiders and all kinda stuff.
We weren't discussing whether or not you can use stealth, but whether or not the Quest-only XP system rewards the stealth playstyle.we can use stealth lots.
Nope. Just poking giant holes in your feeble argument, and all the witless insults you toss don't change that.you asking stoopid on purpose... again? or perhaps are you asking a silly question such as can we complete a quest via nothing but stealth. *chuckle* we would observe that such a query is rather pointless and is one very good reason for implementing quest xp as it don't discriminate or punish based on how we accomplish goals. but thanks for showing just how limited you wanna be in this discussion.
oh, and you can complete solo, and you will level faster, just not enough to unbalance. you get +5%. yippie.
HA! Good Fun!
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It'd be more accurate to say that Josh changed the design.In fairness Stun wan't aware at the time of Josh's statement and corrected himself.
Because just a few months ago This was the plan
But apparently it was neither difficult nor expensive to change course, and balance each XP reward, for every quest, in every area of the game to account for each of the six party number size choices the player has. Yet we are lead to believe that adding XP rewards for this game's hand placed encounters and then balancing the game around that too, is too difficult and would lead Obsidian to...bankruptcy or cause its employees to suffer post traumatic stress disorder, or whatever nonsensical gibberish Gromnir is spouting today.PC Gamer: Party combat is a big part of the game, but you’ve also said it’s possible to play the game solo. Do you think this will be fun, or is it for masochists only?
Josh Sawyer: It’ll be hard. I’m sure people will find certain classes and builds that will make it easier than others. Especially once you’ve already played through the game, and you have the metagame knowledge, it becomes a lot easier. I think the enjoyment comes from the fact that it’s a unique challenge on its own. Some people will say, I don’t know how to play through this whole game with a priest or a wizard, but I’m going to figure out how to do it. It will be pretty challenging, especially at certain points. We’re planning to use a sliding experience system, so if you have a single character they’ll gain levels more quickly than if they were with an entire party.
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And I'm still mystified by Gromnir's inability to grasp the concept behind loss of Quest XP for the Stealthy playstyle but not for, say, talking. Especially since he seems to be championing the false notion that the Quest XP-only system rewards all playstyles equally. And then of course, the utter subject-changing and red herrings he'd respond with whenever ANYONE pointed this out to him. (well, that part's not so mystifying)am still mystified 'by his inability to grasp the concept behind loss o' kill xp for stealthily moving past combat encounters to complete quests when xp is being awarded for kills.
Hey Gromnir, Can you complete any quest in the beta via stealth?
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I stand corrected.
Also: Yuck!
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Link?Josh said there was something like a 5% xp penalty in groups vs. solo. Not a huge advantage.
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Correct. It should not grant XP on its own in either case. It already grants none in either case. You cannot complete any quests in this beta via stealth, for example.stealth in combat should not necessarily grant more xp than stealth to avoid combat.
And what available Gameplay style in PoE would it discourage exactly?stealth xp rewards only for combat usage discourages a potential valid gameplay style.
I'm a gamer. The amount of developer 'hard work' is not relevant to me. I do not judge how fun a feature is by "how long it took the devs implement it".but again, we couldn't explain to you that no work is requiring less effort than that which would be needed to balance an per kill xp system... effort even indira seems to concede would be considerable.
OK, I didn't want to bring this up earlier since we already had enough to discuss, but since you insist on parroting the company line without thinking it through...obsidian did not hide goals o' a balanced xp mechanic
You have NO IDEA whether or not the system currently in place will actually be balanced. As it stands, XP is shared in this game, meaning a party of 6 will advance at a much slower pace than a party of 3...or a soloer. They *admittedly* did not take this into account when they designed the quest system. So you want a *PERFECT* example of quest XP exploitation? There it is. Take a party of 6. Do all your combat from point A to point B in a quest. Then, just before you get your XP reward for completing the quest, Dismiss everyone but your Main character. BOOM You've just gamed the system. Your main toon will reach the level 12 cap halfway through the game (or even sooner). And the end result will be an over-powered main toon. all his non-combat skills will be higher than they should be, causing him to never fail any of the scripted events checks or dialogue options, etc.
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Also:**** arrows, gimmme a codpiece mounted revolver.
If you miss a lot do you get a perk called "shooting blanks"?
-Can you enchant that codpiece mounted revolver?
-What will the reloading animation look like?
-Which attribute will affect its damage? Might? Resolve? Constitution?
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Yeah, I think I pointed this out to Gromnir no less than 27 times, but hey, why bother actually addressing someone's formidable point when you can just make up your own flimsy point and then shoot it down with ease at the same time as people watch.Again, if the player gave up combat prowess to be able to sneak better when developing his character, then you would be right Gromnir. This is not the case in Pillars. Pillars is not Fallout. It does not have a skill system where a player must craft a sneaky, crafty, talky or fighty character. All characters can fight. As such, xp fairness has no bearing. Instead, he gives up the xp if he sneaks past but does not risk death or loss of health. In this game, that is a legitimate threat thanks to rest resources and ironman modes.
So does Josh. Stealth is one of those "ways and means" skills that he alludes to in his post. You can use stealth IN combat, so if a system has kill XP, it already takes stealth gameplay into account.stun thinks sneaking past monsters is unworthy?
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There were story/narrative reasons for the importance of wisdom. And you're splitting hairs. If that's really a point of contention for you, then you ain't got a case. They could just adopt an XP system like PS:T's only without Wisdom bonuses to XP.*chuckle*
it would be hard for stun's example to be any worse as an example o' past failures. ps:t?
A Wisdom of 12 and lower, no bonus
13 gives you about a 2% bonus to experience earned.
14 5%
15 8%
16 10%
17 13%
18 15%
19 18%
20 20%
21 23%
22 25%
23 27%
24 30%
25 35%
the game was so skewed in favor of wisdom it were ridiculous. intelligence and charisma also were receiving superior xp rewards, but as we noted in another thread, ps:t were the prime example o' th schadenfreude josh were talking about in his recent balance article. you could not active play as a cleric in ps:t, so no class had wisdom as a prime attribute, but wisdom not only got you the best xp awards, it gave you a freaking BONUS beyond the awards. and unlike other ie games, you could level as a thief, mage and fighter, so you were smartest to do all three if you wanted as much xp to get as much wisdom a possible.
stun example o' the best is perhaps the worst freaking example we can recall, and clearly the most arse-backwards ie game as far as experience were concerned.
I switched to PS:T because it's a better example, and serves as a fairer compromise (there's more non-combat XP in PS:T). But you know what? I didn't have to. And I regret conceding even that much. Because BG2's system is STILL better than the dumbed down, Lazy, Developer-first system you're advocating.is ironic that stun edited from bg2 to ps:t, 'cause he backpedaled his way into a complete ridiculous xp mechanic that made so that anybody who played through ps:t as a high wisdom mage character knew very well that playing as a low int/wis/charisma fighter as were oh-so-common, in other ie games were a functional punishment, particularly as combat... sucked.
schadenfreude, and stun actual edited his way into it. tickles our sense o' whimsy.
we loved ps:t, but stun points to it most farked mechanic as the guide for PoE? we couldn't have scripted this to make stun look more foolish. honest.
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I suspect that rogue is going to be one of those classes that becomes a lot more fun to play when you deck them out with magic gear (like fighters are in the IE games).Holy ass rogue is boring. Considering how vibrant and wonderful the other classes are it's real let down.
On the "lame itemization" thread Josh said that you'll be able to enchant your weapons with the various status effects (daze, stun, hobble etc). Well? Equip your rogue with a pair of weapons that cause those status effects and he'll become an absolute beast, one sneak attack after another. That sounds super fun to me!
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Since we're discussing PS:T's system, I'm not sure you realize just how hilarious that argument sounds. Doing the Drowned Nations "XP Double Dip" will net you an extra 4000 or so XP.....in a game where a 3 minute conversation with Ravel a few hours later can net you 750,000 XP + 2 points of Wisdom.
that has been done literal hundreds o' times in multiple threads, and Gromnir is simply repeating. folks who don't kill get less xp than those who do....Explain how Kill XP imbalances PS:T.
I made no such claim. I specifically said we shouldn't get XP for stealthing past encounters, since you ALSO cannot solve quests in the POE beta via stealth.but you is the guy who couldn't understand why the absence o' stealth xp were a problem for those playing stealth characters.
As for your system being easy for the developers and mine being harder.... Yeah so what. I'm not a developer. I'm a gamer. Tell me why I should care. I'm a patient guy, I'll gladly accept a 6 month delay in return for a NON CRAP XP system.
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Explain how Kill XP imbalances PS:T... instead of DODGING the question again for the 3rd time
is so difficult to tell if you is being intentional obtuse for effect, or not. perplexing.And... No rebuttal. You've just spouted out a simple "nuh-uh!". You haven't demonstrated what's wrong with it and why.
*sigh*
is not a "nuh-uh" argument. is axiomatic that NOT making any attempt to balance is easier than attempting to balance a myriad different xp award types. quest xp does not make any attempt to balance. it is therefore less resource intensive than ANY xp mechanic that attempts to do so. this should be so obvious that it is beyond question, but somehow it ain't.
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"PoE is a role-play game that allows sneaky and diplomatic. give xp awards for individual kills, and individual lockpicks and individual whatever inevitably leads to an ideal approach for maximizing xp by making the right gameplay and character development choices. quest only xp avoids the need to devise a fair an balanced calculus. quest is simple and guaranteed to result in every player getting exact same XP rewards for completing quests regardless o' how they chose to complete the quest."
Several problems with that.
1) This does not take into account Forced combat encounters (of which Josh assured us there would be many.)
2) This system does not reward intelligent character building over non-intelligent character building since it's designed to reward all builds equally (Hello Casual gamer! Hello, dumbed down, idiot-proof game design!)
3) This system renders 80% of the game pointless.
4) This system doesn't actually address the legitimate gripe from players that receiving no xp for kills will make combat feel pointless (see #3 for emphasis)
5)This system does not factor in Loot placement and the effect it will have on players making game play choices.
This system is Garbage. Stop defending crap game design.
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And... No rebuttal. You've just spouted out a simple "nuh-uh!". You haven't demonstrated what's wrong with it and why.ps:t is no better. is no way possible you can be honest and believe that ps:t approach were more simple and straightforward. you is showing you ain't even trying for reason. and as for suggesting stealth deserves no xp, that further removes you from the realm o' rationale discourse, seeing as how an espoused goal o' PoE is to make all builds equal viable and rewarding.
Here, let me help you out. In the Drown Nations, you can do the Undead priest guy's quests, receive XP for them, and then run straight to the Rat Catacombs and receive Many-as-One's quest....which will require to pretty much kill everyone in the Drown nations (XP Double dip #1). But then you can return to Many-As-One, Show them them the Silent King's Skull and get XP for it.... and then Turn around and Kill Many-As-One (XP Double Dip #2).
Oh wait....Those aren't double dips at all. Those are LEGITIMATE, Story-based, Roleplaying, options. And if one were stupid enough to argue that such a betrayal-based playstyle is "unfair" because it rewards more XP than the "good, honest route", everyone else who's played PS:T can simply point out the f*cking obvious: that the XP difference isn't enough to matter at all, since you'll be receiving 10x the XP rewards from Pharod when you return from that dungeon with the Bronze Sphere.
Yep, PS:T's system is better than the garbage you're proposing. A lot better, since it offers Kill XP and quest XP. ie. it's a win-win.
He did say that the exploits would be different, yes? And Those differences will probably manifest themselves in the way of extreme metagaming exploits, unless they make every quest in the game as simplistic and one dimensional as the Ogre quest, where you need not have to actually rely on any build choices to achieve success.sarex comments is simple silly. will respond quick 'cause is funny rather than contributing anything. quest xp precludes the possibility o' the most obvious exploits as no XP advantage for any particular build is possible.
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So let me see if I can translate this post of yours.http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67963-backer-beta-developer-impressions/?p=1495117
people game the system. hell, we has mentioned numerous bg exploits. dual-class and then immediately add max spells to bg2 spellbook to gain multiple mage levels in less than a minute. do the basilisk map in bg with a solo dual-class player to get them level'd quick. simplest "exploit" were the worst: encouraging folks to play combat focused to maximize xp, regardless o' what they might otherwise think were fun.
is a pleasant fantasy to believe folks don't game the xp system... just as folks gamed fallout special system. there were literal innumerable possible fallout builds, but only a handful o' builds actual got played. that were in part to maximize xp.
any game that has a balancing act for xp may be exploited... so obsidian removes the opportunity to eploit. if there is no advantage to olay combat-focused, people will be more likely to try other builds. should be obvious.
HA! Good Fun!
Gromnir wants quest-only XP because quest-only XP insures that Gromnir won't be able to game the system.
Fair Enough. If Gromnir can't control himself when playing a computer Game then maybe the developers should Baby sit/police Gromnir. Not sure why the rest of us should be punished, though. I can do a BG2 run without resorting to Spell-writing exploits. Can't Gromnir?
Actually This isn't even an argument against Kill XP. This is another dodge. Placing XP value on monsters does not cause XP exploits, provided those critters DIE when you kill them, or go away after you spare them. Yes?
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I'm not sure what you're talking about. Definitely not my post though.the fact that you could possibly believe the bg2 xp system would be more simple and as straight forward
LOL You're dodging.
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...then we've got a problem. Giant chunks of pointless content in the game. Pointless content that requires from the player just as much thinking, just as much time, just as much planning, just as much use of character builds, just as much use of character skills, _And_, possibly MORE use of limited player resources.so what? if there ain't currently a quest for that map,
Stealthing past an XP reward means you're deliberately skipping out on it. So of course you shouldn't be rewarded. And this isn't unique. Try stealthing past the Ogre then returning to the farmer. You'll get exactly the same result: NOTHING. 0 xp. because you haven't completed the quest yet.there undoubtedly will be in final build, and even if there ain't, so what? stealth past lions would get 0 points. kill would get xp. how is this difficult to grasp?
There are several answers to this question.why is kill more xp worthy than stealth?
1) Because this is a combat focused game
2) Because Unlike Combat, in this game Stealth is an aspect of the Mechanics skill (or is it Athletics? I forget), and if we reward stealth XP we will need to reward Lore XP, and athletics XP, and trap disarming XP, and Lockpicking XP, and swimming XP, and jumping XP, and climbing XP, and arm wrestling XP etc. That is, if we wish to be fair.
3) Because stealth is too specifically imbalanced vis-à-vis the classes. It is a tool that Rogues have an advantage with. By rewarding XP for stealth you are giving them an advantage over the other classes.
Planescape Torment's system, minus the meta-gaming exploits. I would suggest NPCs/monsters who are dealt with non-violently during the course of a quest/task/objective be worth zero XP for anyone who attempts to double-dip the rewards after initially completing the quest."provide an alternative system that is as simple and straightforward to implement as task/quest only xp that will will guarantee that regardless of an individual purchaser's style o' gameplay, they will get as much xp as a fighty, diplomatic, sneaky or whatever else kinda player."
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Do you want experience from combat?
in Backer Beta Discussion
Posted · Edited by Stun
Asking for Kill XP does not equate to asking for a pixel-by-pixel code port of the IE games. But hey, feel free to dishonestly move the goal posts.
How can a poll dismissed away as not big enough to be an accurate representation suddenly constitute *bad* news? (or good news, or any news). I'm still trying to get either of you 2 to explain that one to me. But I won't be holding my breath. Since complete nonsense is impossible to explain away by definition.