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Stun

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Posts posted by Stun

    Do you want experience from combat?

    in Backer Beta Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Stun

    *groan*

     

    and thus we see the complete lack o' comprehension regarding the possible balance issues.  some folks will skip the bugs and spiders by stealthily getting past. others may find some more clever route.

    I was talking about the lions.

     

    what if developers added a secret door?

    Where the lions are? They added a dungeon. Even better.

     

    so why does the fighty character get more xp?

    He doesn't. the lions on the gorge map aren't part of any quest. And therefore, XP rewards for killing them can only be tied to either 1) exploration, or 2) the lions themselves. Therefore everyone who gets attacked by the lions receives the same XP for dealing with them.

     

    and if you do give awards for stealthy,

    We don't. Just like there's no rewards for doing the Ogre quest stealthily.

     

    how to you balance properly

    You take into account that there's only 1 way to deal with the lions on the gorge map: Kill them. because they attacked you. . This satisfies all playstyles, since all classes and all builds in this game are geared towards fighting.

     

    quest xp avoids all such balancing issues completely.

    So does Combat XP. As long as we separate the two, there cannot come a time when balance is broken. You do quests for XP, and you kill non-quest tied enemies for XP.

     

     

    "PoE is a role-play game that allows sneaky and diplomatic.

    Whether the game allows for stealth game play and whether it rewards it are two very different things. I asked you this precise question earlier and you managed to wildly dodge it even as you got out your dictionary and tried to re-define the word Sneak. Remember? Therefore, I'm going to ask it again. Show me how I can use stealth to complete ANY of the 4 quests in this beta. Go ahead.

     

     

    give xp awards for individual kills, and individual lockpicks and individual whatever inevitably leads to an ideal approach for maximizing xp by making the right gameplay and character development choices....

    Straw man. No one is asking for Skyrim's systemic system. We're just asking for Kill XP. Kill XP is VERY MUCH different than trap disarming for XP, or sneaking for XP or lockpicking for XP in that it's not a singular action. There are 200+ ways to kill something in this game and by setting flat XP values for an enemy, you are allowing the player party to choose how they're going to kill that enemy. And whatever way they choose will always lead to the same XP reward. This is something SEPERATE and unrelated to Quests. And personally, I particularly see it as a perfect solution for something like the 15 level megadungeon, which SHOULD be a friggin dungeon crawl, not some diplomatic adventure <gag>
    • Like 4

    Do you want experience from combat?

    in Backer Beta Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Stun

    the lions example is pointless with quest xp.

     

    HA! Good Fun!

    Why? Do they not exist? are they not hostile? Do they not attack the party? Did the devs not specifically place them in the party's way?

     

    They're not part of any quest, and therefore cannot be Double-dipped, exploited, or talked down. Nor does attaching an XP value to them break balance, since they will always be available to everyone who chooses to explore that optional map in between questing.

    • Like 3

    Do you want experience from combat?

    in Backer Beta Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Tale
    :(

     

    In fact *some* of the quest xp-only people are deliberately painting this as a binary choice when it isn't.

     

    The *vast* majority of 'combat xp' proponents are in fact (as Msxyz points out) 'wider spread of xp reward methods' proponents, amongst which combat is only one.

    sorry mc, but it kinda is binary. a primary value o' quest/task is that it avoids balancing. if you create categories that include kill/combat and quest and whatever, you has invalidated the point o' quest/task. you has necessarily reintroduced balancing.

     

    What a load of baloney. There's nothing stopping the devs from utterly separating combat from quests.

     

    Take the Ogre quest in the beta. That one is worth 2000xp (or whatever) regardless of how you complete it. Therefore, the Gromnirs of the world are happy.

     

    Now, what about the totally-unrelated-Lions on the other map? Hmm? Oh, I know! we can make them worth XP if they stomp on the party while they're exploring. Problem friggin solved.

    • Like 2

    Do you want experience from combat?

    in Backer Beta Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Stun

    Good point, you glorious wretch! Okay, so assuming you can see exactly how many people downloaded the demo, see how many people played for a substantial amount of time, see how many people post on the topic here in this forum, and then comparing it to the number of people who even generated the key, do you really believe that the number of people represented here should carry the day? Dude, how many people have even voted in this poll, let alone posted in this topic?

    Sawyer has been known to form his design decisions on a whole lot LESS than this. He has flat out admitted that his reasoning behind PoE's bizarre Inventory design (for example) was based on IE game 'Lets Plays' he's watched on YouTube.

     

    There is no science here. And it wouldn't matter if he personally talked to all 73,000 backers and got their opinions on everything. (he's already called us irrational grognards for daring to like BG2's design) He Perceives in a vacuum, and it still must be.

    • Like 1

    Pretty disappointed, this launches in December?

    in Backer Beta Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Stun

    Do really think I thought for a second that my "/thread" would stop anyone from posting, my point is that we can be sure that every dev is 100% aware of your positon in this argument. They all know it. Do you really think that pointing it out in every thread in almost every post will change a thing?

    Depends on the issue, of course.

     

    But if your response to 'pointless' posting is to just give us an admittedly pointless retort like "/thread!" Or "stop whining!" or "I'm Sawyer's spokesman/mind reader, and I've come to proclaim to you that he's aware of your concerns so stop posting them already!", then you're wasting your time...and you're also not using this board as it was designed to be used.

    • Like 2

    Pretty disappointed, this launches in December?

    in Backer Beta Discussion

    Posted

    im talking about people that have around 50 posts revolving around one specifc thing they disagree with

    Obsidian did not create this BB forum to be an outlet for bootlicking fanboi praise gushing.

     

    They created this Forum for FEEDBACK. Do not for a minute think that your "/thread!" retorts and tireless attempts to shut dissention up is doing them (or anyone else) any good at all.

    • Like 5

    Pretty disappointed, this launches in December?

    in Backer Beta Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Stun

    It seems they're pretty committed to releasing this year.

     

    Wow. So this most definitely isn't a question of If they're going to release it this year, but very much WHEN they're releasing it this year. And even more interesting is that the release date seems to be dependent on when Bioware is going to release DA:I.

     

     

    I wonder if we can just mod in the IE item sketches..

    You mean the BG series Item sketches. (Only the BG series had them) Indeed. They were a minor thing but they were so very cool.
    • Like 1

    Do you want experience from combat?

    in Backer Beta Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Stun

    You are mistaken. But that is of no concern to me. I'm not your tutor. I'm just someone who takes pleasure in responding to silly posts.

     

    HA! the game will tank because of quest xp? okie dokie. is this another certainty you folks have on "Planet Retardia"?

     

    HA! Good Fun!

    That's an odd comment from someone who insists on communicating in an imaginary dialect.

     

    In any case I....kinda agree with you. Implementing a system where combat is rendered a pointless exercise likely won't cause the game to tank. Instead, it'll probably cause the game to suffer the PS:T syndrome.... everything is awesome except the combat.

    Do you want experience from combat?

    in Backer Beta Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Stun

    the fact that the developers who actual see the QA folks playing the game, folks such as Sawyer AND Cain, believe that quest xp is the superior mechanic.[/size]

    And this is supposed to mean what, exactly? Are we all supposed to hold Cain and Sawyer to some undisputable high authority on what constitutes 'superior' game design simply because they decided to observe a group of QA people playing a beta?

     

     

    BWAHHHAAAHHHAAA!

     

    are you serious? poor helm uses the Planet Retardia nonsense, and so when he suggests game will tank simply 'cause it uses quest xp, we offer him his own "Planet Retardia" comment in response. surely he can't complain, so why would you?

    I'm not. Check my post from the last page.

    Do you want experience from combat?

    in Backer Beta Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Stun

    If you use the word "pointless" in a manner that makes the word pointless, you're not really making an argument.

     

    First of all, if it's fun, then it does serve a purpose. Secondly, if combat serves to increase the difficulty of accomplishing a task, as in being an obstacle between point A and point B, it's once again serves a purpose. Third, combat in PoE serves purposes beyond giving you XP. Story progression, loot, crafting, quest resolution, etc. Even "trash" mobs serve a purpose as a risk factor involved in exploring. 

     

    Trying to hide behind the word "pointless" as if not explicitly writing what you mean will somehow save your argument doesn't actually fool anyone, you know.

    First, Lets stop pretending that combat will always be tied to an objective, when we've already witnessed a beta that demonstrates otherwise. Ok? Second, lets stop splitting hairs. If an unrewarded combat's only point is to block something purposeful, then we've got something worse than pointless. We've got a pointless hindrance. Third, putting a bunch of encounters on maps that contain no quests/quest objectives whatsoever, and then compounding this by not even rewarding XP for exploring those maps, is the very definition of Pointless.

     

    Stop defending stupid design.

    • Like 6

    Do you want experience from combat?

    in Backer Beta Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Stun

     

    Aaah yes. It's time now for the meaningless but ever entertaining rebuttal of: "combat is for the fun!". "combat is for roadblocking point A from point B in a quest" , and my personal favorite: "combat is for the roleplaying"!

     

    And that's why nobody ever plays any game unless it has Kill-XP.

     

    I imagine it has almost nothing to do with whether or not anyone will play the game.

     

    On the other hand, Whether or not they see its combat as pointless....

    Do you want experience from combat?

    in Backer Beta Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Stun

    HA!  the game will tank because of quest xp? okie dokie. is this another certainty you folks have on "Planet Retardia"?

     

    HA! Good Fun!

    That's an odd comment from someone who insists on communicating in an imaginary dialect.

     

    In any case I....kinda agree with you. Implementing a system where combat is rendered a pointless exercise likely won't cause the game to tank. Instead, it'll probably cause the game to suffer the PS:T syndrome.... everything is awesome except the combat.

    • Like 6

    Backer beta: Developer Impressions

    in Backer Beta Discussion

    Posted

    Then why is there this divide between chit-chat and fighty-fighty attributes? If you pump Resolve, you'll have to forego some points in either might, con or dex. The concept of avoiding a system where you have to decide is really strange, considering that PoE is about decisions. If Obsidian focusses on a game in which to solve quests in vastly different ways then creating a system where you have to decide on what to spend your resources on is mandatory, or otherwise you'll have a character that can do everything at once, making stats absolutely obsolete in the end. (edit: Also it makes the game a "Choose-your-own-story" like the Yawhg. I like the Yawhg, but that is not what I want from and what was promised for PoE)

     

    Also, to whoever used VtM:B as an argument for the Quest-Only-XP: VtM:B was a vastly different game, geared to a vastly different playstyle and has nothing to do with BG,PS:T or PoE. It could never be compared to any of those games. In PoE, monsters exist to be slain. In PS:T encounters where rare and fine-tuned, but that is what makes PS:T special and PoE is nothing like that. PoEs encounters are more in the vein of BG1 and BG2. They are aplenty, some of them are rather random and they cannot be avoided or justified in some cases. Then there is the logical aspect that combat experience does exist, no matter what kind of fantasy universe you come up with. And the argument that every way of solving a quest should yield the same amount of xp is also invalid, as xp rewards can be tuned towards that. There are encounters every group is able to fight, whether the wolves in the south of Dyrwood or the freakin' beetles/spiders to the east of it. Loot, mostly, is not the reason to fight these battles, as the monetary gain is almost neglegible and not every battle can have a meaning behind it. Some are there because the fauna of the world is simply hostile towards almost anyone.

    In D&D's Forgotten Realms there are many creatures who're just inherently hostile to almost any intruder and will attack, no matter what you do. This is, of course, partly due to the concept of D&D. But PoEs fauna is very similar in that regard. Again, PS:T, is a very rare exception and while we're at it, taking PS:T - the ONLY exception in all of this - as THE archetype for PoE is ridiculous, sorry to say that. You take the one exception and act like it's the norm (and yes, that is headed towards Gromnir), but it is not and this is just ridiculous. You act like you are the authority here yet your arguments are non-existant.

    Yes. Couldn't have said it better.

     

    Clarity, after 24 pages. Who could have imagined such a thing?

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