Stun
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Posts posted by Stun
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New approaches lol.We are aware of the thread internally, but I am not sure how much of it Josh has read. Regardless, I will let Josh make any comments about that system since it is a touchy subject and he is best equipped to answer those questions.
New approaches are always going to met with some resistance.
The vast, vast majority of video games do not grant XP for kills.
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Well, alright. But if we're going to expand this discussion to include equipment as a build supplement, then I'd like to request that we stop claiming (as josh has) that you could create a bad build in the IE games and thus PoE needed to improve upon such flawed design.
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Then that would mean that the weapons matter, not the build.What if different weapons have different base damage and accuracy? You know, like in P:E?
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Again, the values cannot be adjusted too meaningfully, otherwise build failure will be a possibility.
Why?
Ok, here's a quick example.
Lets say your Fighter is wielding a weapon who's base damage is 10. Now lets say that we adjust Might values so that:
9 Might = 0 bonus to damage
18 Might = +9 bonus to damage
1 Might = -9 to damage
(Ie. a system where you're buying just 1 point of damage for every point of might after 9, and subtracting 1 point of damage for every point of might under 9.)
In this system, your fighter with 1 Might will be doing 1 point of damage per hit with his weapon. This is what people would call a bad build. now Couple that with 3 in Dexterity, and this fighter will now have serious problems even hitting his opponent for 1 damage. People would call this a bad build, even IF the stat dumping and armor-wearing allowed him to be quite the survivor while doing practically no damage to anyone.
It's completely viable and not much different than wearing no armor and pumping RES. My challenge to you. Roll up a wizard. Dump all his stats to 3, and wear no armor. Then watch as his magic missles, fireballs and arcane veils still make him a terror on the battlefield as designed.Stun, for spits and giggles: roll up a wizard, dump RES, wear heavy armor, and do some casting in melee. Then tell me how it worked out.
The stats are just bonuses. They don't *matter*
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Offering XP for kills is not an exploit. And it won't ever become exploitable unless we're dealing with idiot developers who don't have the sense to eliminate respawns and make NPCs walk away/go away/disappear/be worth nothing when a quest is completed.You claim their is policing that whole discussion started with you claiming that fixing exploits equals policing, seriously. In general dev's try to fix exploits in games because it A) makes them not look good and B) a lot people dont like exploits in their games.
Give your ridiculous hyperbole a rest already.
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Unless by 'noticeable difference', you mean decimal point values, you're mistaken.they're not just show. there's a noticeable difference in behaviour between the minimum of 3 points and 18.
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Again, the values cannot be adjusted too meaningfully, otherwise build failure will be a possibility. It will be just like how it is in AD&D.Ugh. Stun.
Two separate things.
One, the state of the beta. Here, we are entirely in agreement: currently you CAN play with all 3's and not feel much of a difference, and that is a Bad Thing. (Also: this is trivially easy to fix, just double the bonuses and adjust the base values down accordingly.)
And therein lies the absurdity behind Josh's claim that you can have true build freedom *and* no bad builds at the same time.
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Thus we have the Policing you falsely claimed doesn't exist.You care only about yourself but the dev's have to care about EVERYONE playing their game and need to find a way to please the majority.
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I did no such thing. I wrote my entire post in 1st person singular. Because that's all I care about in a single player game: ME.Answer: since this is a single player game and Gamer-Joe's exploiting doesn't effect my game experience in any way, yes. I don't mind at all. Stop trying to police the gamer.
You make the mistake of assuming that the majority thinks about exploiting in single player games the same way as you do.
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Ooh! I can answer this hyperbole-ridden straw man!
So you think its fine if people do stuff like, sneaking through the vent tunnel getting sneak xp, running back to the start killing anyone at the normal route getting kill-xp, talking the boss out of the situation getting talk-xp and then kill him to get kill-xp again? That is what people usually do in games that give xp for every small step."Exploiting the system", "intended for"... *Shiver*
How about just making your CRPG reward all accomplishments, but with tiny xp amounts, and be done with it? Why this fostering attitude?
Answer: since this is a single player game and Gamer-Joe's exploiting doesn't effect my game experience in any way, yes. I don't mind at all. Stop trying to police the gamer.
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Wait... didn't we just cover this, like, 5 minutes ago? As long as farming isn't required, what does it matter what an exploiter does?If you would give XP for every single step people could farm those and get two or three times the xp that was intended for it.
Oh that's right. This is the Policing you claim isn't occurring. It matters because the devs demand that we play their way.
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The game doesn't require you to. You can *literally* dump all your stats to 3 and then start adventuring and see for yourself how worthlessly cosmetic the attribute system is....and must be.... in order to guarantee no bad character building.It doesn't mean that either. There's no need imposed on the player at all.
You're trying to ignore the Obvious - that in this beta, you can dump ALL your stats to 3 and still be totally effective in melee, ranged, and spell casting, and that the system HAS to be this way, otherwise, there will be a chance for build failure... and build failure goes against the stated design goal.
Nuh-uh. Does not follow.
If you dump a stat, you put the points somewhere else.
And whether that was josh's intent or not, that is how the system works. The classes are already totally viable regardless of how you choose to play them (ranged vs. meless vs. Spellcasting) The attribute points don't change this.
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Correct.It shows that grinding is optional, not a essential part of the game. I never grinded in any IE game ever, its not necessary.
So then, what do we say to those tiresome Anti-Kill-XP peeps who repeatedly insist that we need to remove Kill XP in order to eliminate the need to grind for XP like in the IE games?
Should we tell them they're full of Sh*t because they friggin are?
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It doesn't mean that either. There's no need imposed on the player at all.In response to the attributes - see my post in this thread:
->'No bad builds' does not mean no bad effects from dumping one stat - it means dumping one stat allows pumping of another and then needing to play to that advantage.
You're trying to ignore the Obvious - that in this beta, you can dump ALL your stats to 3 and still be totally effective in melee, ranged, and spell casting, and that the system HAS to be this way, otherwise, there will be a chance for build failure... and build failure goes against the stated design goal.
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That's nice.Like I said I played through it two times and didnt have any problem finishing it without grinding once. You dont need max stats to finish the game, theirs no reason to grind exept making the game even easier than it is.
But that has nothing to do with your claim or what we were discussing. You don't have to grind in any of the IE games, yet that hasn't stopped your side from citing IE-game-grinding at every turn on this thread.
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Oh no it's not. PS:T is the most attribute-dependent game ever created. And how do you raise your attributes? By leveling. And how do you level? By gaining XP. And how can you gain XP fast in PS:T?You know that grinding in PS:T is useless?
1) By killing the endlessly respawning Abishai in the hive.
2) By making endless runs through Undersigil
3) By setting the modron cube to hard and clearing it...over and over and over
And if you haven't already raised all your attributes to 25 by the time you've reached the Pillar of Skulls, you can, of course, grind Baator as long as you wish. Everything there respawns upon map transition.
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You want citation that Josh promised us "no bad builds" and then delivered a system where you can't make a bad build if you try, due to the fact that dumping all your stats to 3 incurs you a bonus, instead of a penalty?
Ok, I cite this Beta. Would you like a screen shot too? Or have you seen enough of them at Codex?
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Interesting fact: You can grind trash mobs for XP in Planescape: Torment. In fact you can do it more than in Icewind dale and Baldurs Gate combined. Everything endlessly respawns in PS:T. Remember?Ever thought about the fact that they quoted planescape torment way more often than baldurs gate1/2 and icewind dale1/2 combined?
PS:T even gives you a portable dungeon you can carry around in your inventory. Anytime the urge to grind and grind for XP takes you, you can simply enter that dungeon and fight the endlessly respawning modrons for 4000xp each. Forever.
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Nope. The system certainly isn't broken at all. It's working precisely as designed.So the system is broken because the numbers are off. That's what you're saying?
The problem is that the design itself is crap. The attributes are cosmetic and don't have any sort of meaningful impact on a build in either direction. And Obsidian can't tweak the values too much otherwise it will be possible to create a bad build -which would go against the entire design philosophy.
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The solution is to make it so that there's no dump stats - You know, where if a wizard does decide to dump a stat, it'd be a serious choice to make and the consequences for doing so would be that he'd pay for it at the *class level* - he'd be severely gimped because the stat he dumped was, in fact, a useful stat to pump regardless of his playstyle.You realize that a system that asks you to make yourself bad at the things you'll never do to be good at the things you'll always do isn't particularly cognitively demanding either, right?
But we didn't get that. We got the opposite of that. We got a system where ALL stats are dump stats. They're all just minor bonuses (the damage difference between 3 might and 20 might is ~5 damage if you're using a *2-handed* weapon.)
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Oh, It's Far worse than that.To borrow a post from the Codex, it's been shown that you can create a mage with max Might, dump DEX (accuracy) to 3 and INT to 3 and it's still a good build and can take on a lion one on one. There just seems to be something wrong when you can dump attributes like DEX and INT for a wizard but it's still a viable and appears to be a good build for the game.
It's one thing when a Wizard chooses to dump Intelligence and dexterity in favor of pumping might and constitution. At least in that case logic would dictate that such a build means that you're making a meaningful tradeoff (to be decent in melee in exchange for being a less effective spell caster)
But the system in place even removes THAT trade off. As it stands, you can dump ALL your attributes to 3 and it won't make much of a difference. Your wizard will still be totally effective in melee, and totally effective casting spells. Which means your build choices are cosmetic, verging on placebo-like. The only thing that matters is the class you choose, which has already been designed to be good at everything.
It's an idiot proof system.
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The exception to the rule.but this particular poll's results mirror every single poll we've ever had on the kill XP issue since about 2012.
Really? Then what do you call this one?.
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For me, there are many many things that can factor into making a game replayable (and by replayable I mean 'making me want to play the game several more times', not just once more to see what I missed the first time, and then once again 5 years later because the urge hit me)
In no particular order These things are:
1) Meaningful build choices - And no, I don't mean "oh cool, I can make a melee mage *or* a nuker mage". I mean REAL build choice. Where talents, attributes, and even weapon choices make playing my mage on a second playthrough feel totally different than it did the first time around.
2)Narrative depth- discussed on this thread already. The game would need to make it so that I'm seeing something significantly new when I make different choices than I did in my first playthrough
3)Combat depth - Combat should be robust enough, and deep enough and filled with enough meaningful choice on its own that I simply *can't* see everything it offers in a single playthrough (for clarification, THIS is what made BG2 so mind-blowingly replayable for me.)
4) Something to discover - Like an overpowered build. Or an underpowered build. Or, in a party based game, a significant level advancement/difficulty difference that alters gameplay depending on party size and party makeup.
5) meaningful Weapon diversity - sounds superficial, but it really isn't. I felt constant Urges to replay ToEE because the type of weapon your melee guys use makes a huge difference in how combat plays out (Reach weapons vs. Daggers, Fragarach vs. a Holy mace etc)
6) A meaningful spell system - another thing that made BG2 so replayable. There were hundreds and hundreds of spells. And discovering the various combinations, making the best use of the dozens of different status effects can, by itself, justify repeated playthroughs.
7) Exploration - As a rule of thumb for me, the more linear and constricted a game is, the less it will lend itself to replays. Therefore, if you give me a game that's more open ended, and where going off the beaten path will actually *matter* in the long run, it will probably result in me wanting to replay the game.
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What an interesting comment. Suggests that a gamer's tastes are malleable based on the amount of noise. Of course if that were true then anyone who makes a trip to BSN would come back the next day convinced that PoE should have romances, otherwise it's not an RPG. But, I can say from experience, that my last foray into the BSN cesspool had the complete opposite effect on me.
Yep, I do. With the amount of noise and heat the pro kill-XP crowd is generating on this issue, I'd figure that they'd have more votes, to be frank.Wait... what? A poll that shows a majority in favor of combat XP undermines the combat XP position? In what alternate reality? Oh, by the way, This is Obsidian we're talking about. The same company that scrapped their Weapon Degradation design for PoE, citing fan disapproval, on LESS than what we're seeing here.
Well, I can't account for any strange expectations you might have formed in your head, but this particular poll's results mirror every single poll we've ever had on the kill XP issue since about 2012. The Obsidian forum is, and always has been, split down the middle on the issue. This suggests that the people's positions on the matter are pretty much entrenched and final, and it will take more than "noise and heat" to get anyone to move.I expected more of a lopsided victory for it in a forum poll.
In fact, it will probably take the game itself to change anyone's mind.
Eh? maybe a couple weeks earlier, tops? Which wouldn't support the point you're trying to make. The XP issue was first announced to us in Update #7, while weapon/armor degradation feature came a bit later when they announced the Crafting stretch goal. Both were design features they presented to us before Production actually began.Now, even assuming that *prospective* weapon degradation was as central to their design philosophy as quest only XP, that was a bit earlier in development.
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That's right Mods, remove a Developer's post from this thread.