Stun
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Posts posted by Stun
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The combat in this game may not be perfect but it is leaps and bounds better than the snooze fest in the IE games.
I'm gonna have to disagree with this. I'm having serious trouble getting myself immersed in PoE's combat. I'm trying my hardest, but it's just not doing it for me. It's too fast, it's too chaotic, it's too action-y. It's too unrewarding (and no, not just talking about the lack of XP and any meaningful loot drops) The animations are mostly dull and overly repetitive. And again, it feels like they sucked all the magic out of magic.
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What if someone decides not to point anything out. Like for example, in this complete post from you:
^this was a response to an argument that was made about how XP for killing monsters was logical. There's no refutation here. it's just a dodge.Oh, we're back to "logic" again, are we?
That's all you do on these threads, Mr. tart. That and attempt to toss dictionary 'corrections' to established gaming terminology.
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Oddly, the more I play this beta the more I'm noticing that my Wizard is my lowest maintenance character. After discovering that his offensive spells are pitifully inconsequential, I have equipped him with a rifle and just made him shoot things from a distance. He's far more effective that way. He's a heavier hitter than my rogue.
Wow that is pretty disheartening I hated what 4E did with wizards and I hope this isn't what PE did to them...
You are saying his spells are too weak to be worth using or the selection he comes with stinks?
Call me crazy but a wizard + rifle shouldn't be doing more than his spells lol...
I'm finding them very hit and miss. A wizard's defensive spells are amazing at keeping a wizard alive when he's in a dangerous situation. So they can be described as both powerful and successful. But offensive spells? No. They're not that good at all. PoE's version of Magic missile and fireball do exactly the same damage as their BG2 versions. But in PoE, that just means they're pitifully weak, because POE's health system is so different. Everything in PoE's beta has triple digit health. even the little insects.
Ditto with mind effecting spell effects like Confusion, Daze and fear. They're weak. They last about 5-10 seconds. What's the point?
On the other hand, The firearms in this game are super powerful. Again, my mage is doing upwards of 60 points of damage per hit with his Rifle. That's quite a bit more than he can ever do with any of the missile spells. And there's no per day or even per encounter restrictions on Rifles.
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^I'm not. I'm criticizing someone else for using logic. And You're Dodging.
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Because, honestly, getting 50 XP every single time you kill a beetle just doesn't make any sense. If I make Jello pudding 700 times, do I become a master of the culinary arts? No. In fact, the FIRST time you make Jello pudding is by far the most significant time. After that, you can hone your muscle memory and familiarity with the process, etc., but it's not going to be equivalent to entire level-ups worth of XP, like in typical RPGs. It's just a fun "Yay, I'm progressing!" thing. It was highly adjustable in D&D. Your DM decided whether or not what you did was significant. And, as others pointed out, you often got rewarded for being efficient/clever, rather than just putting yourself through hell.
I find it humorous (and slightly annoying) that whenever my side tries to employ real world logic to justify Kill XP, we're suddenly gang-banged by masses from YOUR side reminding us that XP itself is an abstraction that logic cannot be applied to. But then one minute later the discussion shifts and we see you people are applying this SAME real world logic to justify the omission of Kill XP.
Make up your minds, please. Can we use logic or not?
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It's neither an abuse of terms, nor an erroneous use of any terms. You're Dodging. Address the point now, or stop wasting everyone's time.There you go again Stun, abusing terms. How about you find a dictionary and put it next to your desk? That way you can look this stuff up before posting your silly nonsense.
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Faulty analogy. This game is promising Objective XP, not just quest XP. And often times Objectives aren't jobs. They're points of progress within a job.Let's make this simple: You ain't gettin' paid til the job's done, and the job ain't to assault innocent quadrupeds in the woods.
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The Cultist dungeon, mainly.
But what exactly am I supposed to look for in the combat log? I mean, what will it look like?
Here's what it currently looks like:
Joe_the_Barbarian hits Skein Cultist for 26 piercing damage.
And that's it... there's no second line that suggests that the cultist next to him took any damage.
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Oddly, the more I play this beta the more I'm noticing that my Wizard is my lowest maintenance character. After discovering that his offensive spells are pitifully inconsequential, I have equipped him with a rifle and just made him shoot things from a distance. He's far more effective that way. He's a heavier hitter than my rogue.
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Welcome to all RPGs, including PoE. Try removing your wizard's Grimoire. He will no longer be able to cast spells.Oh, look! I'm like a Barbie! I need tons of complements to shine.
My point is that you cannot ignore the influence of items in AD&D, as it is part of the class skill-sets themselves. More to the point: AD&D places severe weapon and armor restrictions on Wizards. This is for balance purposes. So a good DM (in this case, Bioware) can take advantage of those rules by loading up their game with super powerful gear that Fighters can wear but Wizard's can't. And the result? Fighters in BG2 can do *SO* much more than simply auto-attack.Curious how skills by items add nothing to micro but having skills by class is "murder". Just saying.
It's just one way of making different classes fun to play. Obsidian happens to be taking a different route (talents). But I'm not seeing how it's inherently better if the end result is pretty much the same.
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This is an argument in a vacuum. We're talking about BG2. A game that loaded fighters up with enough magic gear to turn them into unique terrors even compared to magesFighter Level 1: "Look at me swinging my sword!"
Fighter Level 5: "Look at me swinging my sword!"
Fighter Level 10. "Look at me swinging my sword!"
etc
Yeah, braindead gameplay as indicator of power.
AD&D fighters are not weaklings... unless you compared them to wizards. Enemies with high magic resistance are there so the wizards are not always the stars.
And fighters are totally boring too, which is the most important part.It's more like this:
Fighter level 10 - "look at me swinging my weapon while mirror imaged!"
Fighter level 11 - Look at me making swarms of Undead instantly explode while swinging Daystar!"
Fighter level 12- Look at me summoning a phase spider to help me as I swing my sword
Fighter level 13- Look at me stunning opponents, and casting lightning bolts at them as I swing my Katana!"
Fighter Level 18- Look at me insta-killing Trolls and Giants with Crom Faeyr, while making beholders kill themselves with my cloak, as I turn invisible and haste myself with my ring while everything is true sighted with a spell I just cast from the Book of infinite spells...
Fighter level 21 - "look at me Greater whirl winding this guy!"
etc.
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Going through the beta with an 18 Intelligence Barbarian who's wielding a Pike. Class info says Barbarians do (secondary) AOE damage whenever they hit an opponent.
I've spent the last hour testing this out. There were...many... instances when my Barbarian was attacking enemies who were tightly clustered together. But I neither saw any info in the combat log suggesting that anyone but the specific enemy I was targeting was taking damage, nor was there any visual feedback on the game screen suggesting that they were. -
You do realise that Sawyer is not a fan of Baldur's Gate 2. Right?More like BG2 please
Huh? Where? How? When?
Basically he disliked just about everything I loved about BG2.
I really disliked most of the CNPCs, I really disliked being forced to go find Imoen, I really disliked the style of dialogue, and I really disliked being flooded with a million quests by every shmoe on the streets of Athkatla. Basically, there wasn't a whole lot I did like about it.What about BG2 bothered you, do you think? That seems to me a pretty classic crpg-style game, I'm surprised yiou didn't enjoy it so much.
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Take it up with Josh. I'm using HIS definition of Rock-paper-Scissors. As that is how he described situations in the IE games where an enemy is immune to everything but attack form X. Or when an effect can only be countered with Spell Y.Stun, could you stop abusing terms? RPS means a circular system where A defeats B, B defeats C, and C defeats A(And can grow exponentially larger). Certain enemies being weak to A, or A and B, or C, or being resistant or practically immune to A and B, or to C, does not make it RPS.
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Maybe only for powergamers.Because it is completely binary, you already know the outcome of your actions. Avoiding or engaging the trash mobs always yields the same reward.
And that is wrong because it discourages experimentation upon replays, am I guessing correctly?
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No need to apologize. The context of this discussion is most definitely about PoE. Thus your point is a totally valid refutation of sparklecat's entire argument.
Are you talking about the old IE games? Because I was.It's penalising the roleplayer to make it mandatory to wander around killing things without an in-game reason if you want your character to be at the expected level for combat encounters later on down the line.
That's not true afaik. Staying on the critical path only will still provide you the XP needed to complete the game. XP gained on exploration / non crit path is just extra. You should hit the level cap either way but the latter method may get you there faster.
No sorry, I thought you ware talking about PoE.
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You'll have to do that in PoE too. As I can't imagine it being so horribly imbalanced that it can be beaten straight out of the prologue with a 1st level character.
By the need to keep up level-wise to progress.How are you forced? You keep saying that, but that was simply never the case in IE games.
But for what it's worth, BG1 can, in fact, be soloed, and beaten with a level 1 character.
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Well, I didn't want to make it that personal by calling you out specifically, but since you asked so nicely...Well, "pot calling the kettle black" generally requires the person you're criticising to actually have expressed hypocritical views, rather than simply people who hold some of the same opinions as them doing so.
OK, yes, I'm referring to you, specifically.
lets see... what can we make out of a silly response like this? Oh yes, I know. How about we point out the judgmental hypocrisy in it.
Well, no. This isn't Diablo. If you don't want to do quests, this is probably not the right game for you.It pigeon holes players into playing one specific way. What if players don't want to do many quests? The only way to play if you want to get anywhere is by questing now. There's no just going out and adventuring around killing things as a form of progression.
First, both Diablo and PoE are RPGs. Second, both Diablo and PoE have quests. Third, they're both RPGs that place heavy focus on combat. Forth, it stands to reason that if one is an RPG fan who enjoys engaging in combat when playing RPGs, then there's a really good chance he might enjoy both games. It's only the latter's lack combat XP that might cause him to not enjoy the experience. Or perhaps to enjoy it less.
You are assuming that if one does not desire to do quests, then one will not find PoE fun...? But It's not up to you to decide which aspects of PoE are going to be the most fun for someone else, or even the most important or relevant. Like I said... Pot. kettle. Black.
PS: I can say one thing after playing the beta. It *SO* wasn't about its quests.
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...and did.Oh, OK, so you're only annoyed because of something Josh said..
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Oh for crying out loud. If that's not the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is. In my 2 years on this forum I've seen more than a dozen gigantic XP threads. But there hasn't been a single one of them that wasn't filled to capacity with people from your side who based their entire argument around making sure the world realizes that killing things for XP is both the antithesis of Fun and a hindrance to role playing..I am not saying it does. I'm taking issue with Stun dismissing what other people enjoy doing in their games as "meaningless pretend crap" when that's the entire point of roleplaying games, computer or otherwise, as a genre!
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Nonsense. Every mage fight was RPS. Beholders were RPS. High-level undead were RPS. In some of those the RPS wasn't about picking the right weapon; it was about picking the right counters and the right elemental damage or spell(s). Same thing, just applied differently.
Are you claiming that there aren't a 'bajillion' ways to do crushing, piercing, or slashing damage in P:E? 'Cuz I'm sure seeing a lot of them.
Seriously, Stun. This isn't rocket science.
Second time: I don't care that BG2 has Rock-paper-scissors elements. I care that PoE does because Josh claimed it *wouldn't*. And he claimed it wouldn't after smugly criticizing the IE games for having them...and hard counters. And chance. And kill xp. And death spells. And mechanics that lead to rest spamming and save scumming. And everything else he claims promotes degenerate gameplay.
I don't know if it's Irony, or just plain hypocricy on his part that after calling us Grognards and condemning the games we loved for having "bad design", that all it took was a 3-5 hour demo for us to see that PoE will most definitely have at least 3 of the above.
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They don't have a choice in the matter. Josh said the game was going to be released in winter of this year because that's when the money runs out.14 years of experience in software development, 16 years of following Interplay/BIS/Obsidian games. They need more time.
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Golems were the only Rock-paper-scissors in Bg2, since some types of their species were immune to everything but blunt weapons. All the others could hardly be called such when there were a bajillion ways for them to be harmed by any class.Well, fine, I guess, although personally I don't mind rock paper scissors if it's a good game of rock paper scissors.
What I still don't get is why you find it offensive in P:E when the IE games were chock full of rock paper scissors. What was combat against golems, beholders, illithids, or high-level undead if not a game of rock paper scissors?
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It's not different. It's what first person shooters and other NON-RPGs have been doing since their inception.Be brave, uve done somthing different and stick with it Obsidian.
Because heaven forbid a game that dares to give us both.If ur only reward for exploring is a numeric advance in level...and not the actual curiosity of wanting to know and rewarded with that knowledge ...
What's with you guys and your "either/or" mentality?
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More like BG2 please
in Backer Beta Discussion
Posted · Edited by Stun
Pausing doesn't solve the issue. It helps, but its not enough. the second you unpause the problem returns.
Edit: before this beta, I was pleased with the concept of the engagement/disengagement mechanic as it was being described to us. But now that I've seen it in action I don't like it. It adds some tactical elements to combat, absolutely, but it also removes just as many. And it seems to be one-sided....totally stacked against the player. I've been playing the demo since monday, and not ONCE have I seen an enemy attempt a disengage. Apparently, Obsidian decided to utterly perfect enemy AI to ensure that we can never enjoy those disengagement damage bonuses. Enemies strictly run right to their target and then stay put...at all costs.
Lastly, right now I'm not even noticing any functional difference between heavy armor and light armor on my toons. I got hit with the disappearing gear bug on my fighter. He was wearing a brigadine chest piece (heavy armor). And it disappeared. So I equipped him with the only spare I had: Leather. He's not being damaged in combat any more than he was before, and right now I really can't tell if his attack speed has increased. I would prefer that armor in this game have a real function...instead of just being cosmetic.