Stun
-
Posts
2849 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
11
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Blogs
Posts posted by Stun
-
-
There's nothing "funny" about that. The heart responds to stuff that makes the person feel good. It's called human nature.This is kind of funny actually.
My head says combat XP (and systemic XP in general) is bad design and a bad idea.
But my heart misses it.
A page or so ago someone brought up how eating Pizza and Pie may be enjoyable but it's still "not a good idea". Yeah, here's my response: Screw that. Opting for a plate of celery sticks and carrots instead, because they constitute "a good idea".... does not sound appealing or satisfying to me. And games are supposed to be a guilty pleasure indulgence...not...whatever that person is suggesting.
-
2
-
-
Don't sell that gem short! He also accuses you of trying to play moderator... and then he turns right around and asks us all to "take it to PMs", which is probably the single most used Moderator response to heated personal arguments that pop up on message boards.Except - and I know this is totally selfish - I'm trying to have a conversation with Helm and understand his stance on why he feels the riskiness of combat should yield an appropriately greater reward, and having to skim through three pages of toxic bile between posts is something I could do without, thank you very much.
This is what PMs are for. Ive used them to great effect for speaking to a single individual.
...So you're telling me to use the PM function to discuss a question pertaining to preferences of xp system instead of doing so in the topic that was opened to discuss questions regarding the xp system. Presumably because civilized discussions might interfere with the ongoing drama, and that would be a terrible loss.
I mean... dude.
God I love this place.
-
2
-
-
Yeah, but I suspect they're going to fix some of that. Firearms (specifically the rifles) are overpowered. I doubt they were supposed to be as universally effective as they turned out to be in this beta. Look for josh and crew to tone them down a few notches.
-
1
-
-
Among other features of the infinity engine games which were glaringly absent in this beta I just played, yes.Your analogies never fail to crack me up. So you are starved for kill xp eh?
It's not? Then why do you see it as good design that XP be rewarded for Quest completion?Because good design is not giving xp just because it is something you can do a lot in the game.
-
???I mean I enjoy stuffing my gob full of pizza and pie but it doesn't make it a great idea.
It's a great idea, if you're starving to death. What could possibly be your point here? This game is combat focused. Your arguments would work if they had designed the game to be like Planescape Torment, where combat is trivial. But it isn't. As it stands, They've given us 200 unique ways to kill things but no XP rewards for doing so. That's bad design.
-
5/10. You're going to have to do better if you wish to win the Contest.
Edit: and you must not have played the beta.
-
That locked door does not lead to a cellar. It leads to a rather sizable dungeon, who's other entrance can be found in the wilderness map where the Ogre was.I played a little more last night and really enjoyed the experience however I ran into a problem in that I cannot find a lockpick for Tryvig's tower. I took the Ogre's word about the missing girl (still had to fight the idiot) and I went back to confront Tryvig which sparked a fight between my party and him and his assistant (which was actually tougher than you'd think). I killed them and now I spot a room with a basement beyond the room I confronted him in. I suspect the missing girl is in that cellar and has been all along (not asking for the truth here). But I also suspect, haha, that I just killed the one guy capable of selling me a lockpick especially as no one else in town is selling one! Any suggestions?
-
2
-
-
Oh good God. Is there some secret contest currently going on in this Forum to see who can miss points more efficiently?
Oh yes the old "choices are inherently good so more choices is always better" chestnut. As wrong now as ever.Giving players multiple ways to acquire their XP rewards is always better.
But this is not an Either/Or. The system should reward you Kill XP and Non Kill XP. This one doesn't though.
Baldurs Gate 2 was a far better RPG than Shadow Run Returns.
Ok, lets take this nice and slow and include all the context.
Developer A: Ok Guys. We're working on a game. This game will be an RPG. Our vision is that this game should be about choices, consequences, and ongoing character development. It should reward role playing and using different play styles.
Developer B: But how should we hand out XP for a game like this? We know from experience that if we focus exclusively on rewarding players for killing stuff, then this will result in Killing-Stuff becoming the primary play style, thus ruining the stated vision.
Developer C: Good point, Mr. B! I suggest we reward both violent solutions and non-violent solutions. That way the player feels like he has a real, meaningful, choice as to whether he should kill that pack of lions that's blocking a dungeon entrance, Or throw meat at them as a diversion, Or Charm them with a spell, or sneak around them and find another dungeon entrance.
Developer B: Agreed.
Developer A: It's settled then. We will remove Xp rewards for kills!
Developer B: Huh?
Developer C: Er... what?
-
6
-
-
There's no such thing as a new Torment.
RTwP is a given? I bet you had strong opinions about the new Torment eh?Since killing things was the primary way to advance in levels in the vast majority of those RPGs, they didn't have to. It was a given. Just like they didn't ask if we missed having mages in our party. Or if we missed doing quests for XP. Or if we missed real time with pause. Or if we missed item descriptions on magic items.
I will always have strong negative opinions whenever someone biggy-backs on the success of the infinity engine games in order to get our money, and then decides to create a 'successor' that intentionally spits in those games faces.
-
2
-
-
Yes. Giving players multiple ways to acquire their XP rewards is always better.Wouldn't it be better by rewarding players using diplomatic or stealthy ways to solve a quest with extra xp instead of removing combat xp completely? Beating enemies to gain the loot and xp has been part of the fun of traditional RPG. This change has gone too far I think. To be honest, I am even a little bit regretful backing this project if they are taking out my pleasures of earning killing xp.
The problem is that some people simply cannot understand that the concepts are not mutually exclusive. You can have combat XP in a system where Objectives and quests and diplomacy and stealth and hand placed stuff ALSO exists.
Baldurs Gate 2 was a far better RPG than Shadow Run Returns.
-
2
-
-
Since killing things was the primary way to advance in levels in the vast majority of those RPGs, they didn't have to. It was a given. Just like they didn't ask if we missed having mages in our party. Or if we missed doing quests for XP. Or if we missed real time with pause. Or if we missed item descriptions on magic items.They didn't ask if we miseed all those old isometric rpgs WITH KILL XP.
-
2
-
-
LOL this is such a vague, meaningless statement.IE games xp system is a tried and tested failure.
-
And... so was BG1, and PS:T, and Icewind Dale. There isn't a single game that the PoE kickstarter namedropped that didn't have Kill XP. They all did.
Sure, I can do it. BG2 was incredibly successful and was very well-received.Great. I cannot wait for you to effortlessly (because it is indefensible) prove me completely and laughably wrong. Objectively.
This isn't about making perceived "improvements". This is about tradition and "coming home again" (Sawyer's words, not mine). How would you guys have liked it if Josh had decided that the Isometric top down view that defined the infinity engine games had to be replaced by a 3d first person perspective? I find the scrapping of combat XP in an infinity engine game successor just as jarring.
-
5
-
-
Yep.There are several items in the store with the name and flavour text of *missing string*,
Although I'm not convinced that this is a bug. It might be intentional. I'm thinking there are hundreds of items called "missing string" throughout the game, and if you collect them all, you will be able to create a giant string that connects Twin Elms to Defiance Bay, allowing you to swing from one to the other without having to fast travel.
-
6
-
-
Wait a minute. This is an honest question because it seriously interests me and it would make a huge difference in my argument.I'm still failing to see how PoE combat resembles anything remotely like the last *ahem* too many years of playing MMO's. BG2 had real time combat with pause to execute actions, so does PoE... Yes the combat pacing in PoE is completely borked right now, but once they tweak it, and provide better feedback as to which action was clicked, I can't see how they differ. Please note here I'm not trying to be negative or argumentative, I just honestly can't see the difference.
Combat pacing in PoE is demonstrably "borked" as you say (lets call it what it is: it's an action-packed mess) But I've not seen a single developer even HINT that they think it's something that needs to be fixed. In fact, I'm under the impression that it's very much the design intention, since they deliberately gave us Fast forward and slo-mo buttons.
-
4
-
-
You mad bro? Did Lonk the Sane kill your cleric with his finger of death in Spell Hold, so you've decided to hold some 14 year old grudge against Mage battles in BG2?So, spending a few rounds to get rid of a bunch of stoneskins, immunities, ad spell mantles is somehow better?
<sigh> What you are describing happens to be just a small part of the *unmatched* tactical depth of BG2's combat. And you are so very mistaken regarding the options a party has in BG2's mage battles. Breech isn't needed when your Paladin has Carsomyr. Stoneskin does not need to be dispelled when your Fighter is improved hasted and he's dual-wielding Stone fire and the flail of the ages. Spell mantle does not overcome a summoned Aerial Servant. etc.
-
6
-
-
And this is in sharp contrast to Beetle battles in PoE which are nothing but a bunch of....standard attacks and maybe some poison.Mage battles were crap because they were nothing but a bunch of breaches, dispels and time stops.
Good point!
Actually, this argument goes pretty comprehensive in PoE's demo. As I don't recall combat being very tactically diverse it it. There really isn't a relevant difference between a lion, a stone beetle, and a widowmaker spider in terms of combat diversity
Quick: tell me all the types of special attacks the Skein cultists have.
-
2
-
-
What an Odd comment from the same poster who earlier on this thread complained about the 'tedium' of Mage battles in BG2.They have repeatedly stated that you could make "passive" melee characters if you so choose. This is not possible yet (probably) because the talent tree is incomplete. Do not worry, you guys will be able to select your melee characters, click on an enemy to attack and go grab a soda when all is said and done. This great and noble IE gameplay, will, I am sure, be once again possible.
What happens if you click on a hostile mage in bg2 then go grab a soda? I'll tell you what happens. You'll come back to find the reload screen waiting for you.
-
1
-
-
Overruled!These are extremely petty people we're dealing with.
-
I didn't mean it as an insult.Nice casual insult... "mmo-ish." I'm done with this whiney flame thread. Go download enhanced edition and leave this board then.
There are combat mechanics in games. Some are designed with an emphasis on perpetual split-second action, some aren't. PoE's is an example of the former. the IE games are an example of the latter.
-
3
-
-
^the end result of all of this is that the system is designed to keep the action going. And that makes combat feel more MMO'ish than IEish.No it doesn't. The IE games didn't have a stamina system. Or engagement/disengagent mechanics. The IE games didn't have per-encounter abilities. The IE games didn't measure actions by seconds.
At the risk of getting involved in what is shaping up to be some kind of flame war, I did want to chime in on the last point. I think a lot of peoples gripes can come back to the Stamina system. Whilst I do find it jarring in its current state, the more I play, the more I can see the merrits involved with such a system. To respond to the above quote:
I do feel that they are in essense the same thing. The stamina system was put in place to help mitigate the issue of the rest-scumming people used to employ by resting after every encounter. All the stamina system does is create an encounter based health mechanic. This way you're good to go after each fight, but will need to rest after multiple encounters. Is that really so very different from hp? I almost feel like its a terminology issue.
As for per-encounter abilities, these are simply tied in with the stamina system so that you won't have to rest after every fight to get back encounter based skills. I think in the beta we are more subject to the negative side effects of this as a lot of the skills still need tweaking. But once they are, I'm confident it will become a robust system.
Finally with regards to "IE games didn't measure actions by seconds.". Technically they did. They just called them rounds and turns. A "round" was 6 seconds game time and a "turn" was 10 round i.e. 60 seconds. PoE has just gotten rid of that and is calling a spade a spade here.
The above post should be all qualified with an "in my humble opinion". I can understand that we're all passionate here and want a fantastic product! Personally I'm going to remain optimistic and have faith in the team. I think in a few more patches, as abilities get tweaked and better combat pacing, targeting, feedback ui improvements are implemented, it will feel a lot more like the IE games.
Cheers!
Koth.
Combat simply doesn't feel the same. Note: This is not a commentary on which one is better. it's just an observation of the huge differences.
-
1
-
-
The combat doesn't feel the same anyway. Period.No it doesn't. The IE games didn't have...
That doesn't mean the combat doesn't feel the same.
-
3
-
-
Yes.Real-time with pause
No it doesn't. The IE games didn't have a stamina system. Or engagement/disengagent mechanics. The IE games didn't have per-encounter abilities. The IE games didn't measure actions by seconds, nor did they measure damage with decimal points. The IE games did not do grazes. The IE games made great use of the element of chance while PoE is designed from the ground up to bury chance in an unmarked grave, to be forgetten forever. You could pre-buff in the IE games. Your inventory wasn't unlimited in the IE games. You didn't get all your health back when you rested for 8 hours in the IE games.Combat operates the same, just a different ruleset
Yes.Character creation is the same, just different stats
We don't know enough to accurately conclude that. Especially with wizards. The demo didn't allow us to play around with the grimoire management mechanics.Spellcasting is practically similar(More like a sorcerer)
It's different and better, actually. Don't sell PoE short.Environment interaction is the same
I suppose.Open world exploration
No, and no? Except for Planescape torment, Encounters in the IE games featured more enemies, and difficulty varied wildly from one encounter to the next. In PoE that refreshing variety is simply not there. in this demo at least, there seemed to be no difference, difficulty wise between a pack of lions, and a pack of Skein cultists.Encounters and quests
Quests? Don't know enough to say. The quests in this demo were far more dramatic and complex than the typical wilderness area quests we got in Bg1. But far less content filled than the sidequests in BG2.
-
2
-
-
Define mechanically.It's still mechanically the same as IE games. It doesn't share the same systems, but the game is aesthetically and mechanically the same as IE games.
-
1
-
No experience from combat
in Backer Beta Discussion
Posted · Edited by Stun
More to the point: While arguing that "Fat is bad, and therefore its total removal can only be a good thing" may sound good on paper, it never, ever translates well in Games...which are ultimately perceived and judged by the emotion-based humans who play them. The Dopamine fixes ARE real. Ignoring their influence will only lead to a game that doesn't feel right.