Stun

From my 6+ months of playing the beta, I'd say that Character Builds in PoE can be rather diverse in terms of how they play, but relatively constrained in terms of power differentials. That is to say, for example, that a barbarian can be built so that he's a classic glass canon, or he can be built to be an effective tank, or he can be built to have elements of both. But who's to say whether one build is better than the other? Or that one is Broken while the others aren't? And the stats (mig, con, dex, int, res, per)? They matter, but they don't matter so much as to ruin any build due to point mis-allocation or whatever. People have reported building melee specialists with 3 might. They have confirmed that the build isn't broken at all. So the question is: What would be the purpose of a respec feature in such a system? And the answer is: To change from one build to another. But that's purely a matter of TASTE, not a matter of survivability/viability, because the classes are viable already. The stats and talents are the fine tuning. So I say, Screw that. A true RPG fan knows what he's getting into when he plays a real RPG. And that is: That he'll have to make choices, and then deal with the consequences of those choices. Some people on this thread have professed the desire for "second chances" and they've argued that it would be "more fun" for them to be able to "redo" their builds if they're unhappy with said consequences. But I say that if your enjoyment of the game hinges solely on whether or not one character in your party (out of 6) is built exactly to your personal tastes, you're probably not going to have much fun playing this game even with a respec feature that you can use at will. Because again, True RPGs are built from the ground up with choices and consequences all over the place. You won't have much fun fighting against the system from beginning to end.

I'll ask again. How are you coming to the conclusion that a game with broken build mechanics won't also have an equally broken respec mechanic?

The XP debates! Yes! I beg your pardon, Grom.... As a lawyer, you should learn to appreciate wildly successful appeals. Especially when they slap you upside the face. I bet it still hurts, doesn't it. All those days of your willful smug arrogance, confidently pronouncing that arguing for combat XP, and trap disarming XP, and exploration XP was all a pointless waste of time.... ...Only to later see the Devs do a complete 180 on the issue and implement all 3, making the game better as a result. Slight imagined Dangers? How Fickle are we! Less than a page ago, Broken builds were *frustrating*, *disgruntling*, and disturbingly *likely*. But now, apparently, if they occur as a result of respeccing, they're only slight and imagined. lol

By respeccing? What makes you think that someone who decided to respec their character because the build was broken, won't soon discover that their new, respecced build is also broken? We are, after all, Operating under YOUR assumption that the game will likely have broken builds, yes?

You forgot one. For players who won't be happy until PoE resembles Diablo 3 or Dragon Age inquisition, there's the door ----->

Then how WILL you deal with it, O' Casual Modern Gamer? You do realize that this entire discussion is academic, don't you? There will be no Respec feature in PoE. Just like the IE games, PoE will require you to either learn to play with the character you mis-built out of your own ignorance of the rules, or else learn to correct them by making specific build choices on your remaining level ups, or else start over and try again, or else learn the Cheat codes. Guess you're out of luck here. Back to Dragon Age with you. Really now! And here I thought, after reading your incessant blatherings, that PoE wasn't a game so much as a giant mass of broken code trying to pass for a game. So... are you trying to tell us, now, that PoE doesn't stand for Pile of Errors?

That's interesting. I knew that all of D&D's Arch Devils were taken straight out of real world Literature/Mythology (Asmodeus, Mephistopheles, Moloch etc.), but I would never have guessed any of the whacky hyphenated/apostrophe filled Demon names would be.

From a relevance standpoint, PoE WILL have a Live DM: The PLAYER. It's call the gameplay settings. And the reload button.

Wait... Ok, let me see if I can sum up your argument here. A respec mechanic is needed because the point of a game is to have fun, and a respec mechanic is preferable because it's simple workaround for broken mechanics. But, what constitutes a broken mechanic, and what constitutes fun, are both subjective. So... Subjectively speaking, Gromnir will have more fun with a respec mechanic in PoE because PoE will no doubt be unfun without one...due to being too broken. Do I have the gist of it?

Good god. What a presumptuous load of wash. For one, Speak for yourself. Bad/broken builds don't frustrate me, they do the opposite. They challenge me. In PoE, if my fighter isn't 'tanky' enough because I managed to build him wrong or whatever, I'll *will* him to be more tanky...with actual gameplay. I'll scour the game for better armor. I'll pick 'tanky' talents on my next 6 level ups. I'll enchant my gear with 'tanky' enchantments. I'll recruit spell casters who can cast 'tanky buffs" on me. etc. I'm not a weak-minded ADD suffering casual. I don't need a reset button on my RPGs, like you do.

^I had a somewhat similar type of experience in my first BG2 playthrough. Ok, I imported my most powerful BG1 character: 1) He had 19s in all his stats except for Intelligence...which was 3 (mistake #1) 2) He was a fighter, and for some reason, I kept him as one instead of opting for any of the fighter kits. (mistake #2) 3) I put 5 points into Longsword and 1 point into sword & shield style (mistake #3) And then I started the game. As the hours went by, I found myself collecting awesome weapons I either had no proficiency slots in or couldn't use due to class restrictions....Flail of the Ages (ouch!), Frost Reaver, Celestial Fury, Mace of Disruption, Carsomyr! etc. Then I ran into Mindflayers. Ouch! And while I constantly had that nagging feeling that my fighter was sub-optimal (and I'm an eternal power gamer, so that feeling was more than just a feeling, it was a recurring kick in the balls) I still had more fun sub-optimally playing this game than should ever be legally possible. And correcting my mistakes in the second playthrough was even more fun. I suspect that this entire debate is being waged under a ridiculously false premise: that a bad build will lead to the player not having fun. In reality, it's probably more accurate to conclude that if you're not having fun with PoE due to a certain way you built your character, you probably won't have much more fun after 'respeccing' that character. Good RPGs are about more than just your stats and feats.

Really, Gromnir? Ok, then let me respond to your post. They're not forced to do any such thing. Hell, forget False Dilemma, this is a straw man.

^False dilemma, logical fallacy.... Assumes there's no other option available to a player who's unhappy with his character's build. Edit: and you didn't answer my question. If a game's mechanics are broken, what makes you think that the respec feature won't also be broken?

Such cynicism! I suspect your definition of "broken" is: I have 18 resolve, how come I'm not interrupting stone beetles exactly 45% of the time like the stats say! This game is BROKEN! I demand a RESPEC FEATURE! By the way, your whole "the game will be broke, therefore a respec feature is needed" smacks of absurd short sightedness, and a whole lot of blind assumption. First, what makes you think a developer who releases a game with broken mechanics will be able to give us flawless respeccing? And second, what happens a year from now when the devs have fixed these mechanics? Do they suddenly remove the respec feature? Or do they leave it in so that those poor casual modern gamers don't have to worry about those harsh, hardcore RPG things..... like tough character creation choices?

^and Haagenti, which is a brand of ice cream.

Oh, Drizzt is a very tame and normal name by D&D standards. Have you ever read the Book of Vile Darkness? Here's a few names they've given to the various Demon Princes 1) Obox-ob 2) Churnovog 3) Dwiergus 4) Fraz-Urb'luu (although, stupid name or not, this guy has an amazing story that the world of Greyhawk fleshed out) 5) Graz'zt (name looks just like Drizzt, although Gygax came up with it 2 decades before R.A. Salvatore invented Drizzt) 6) Haagenti 7) Juiblex 8.) J'zzalshrak 9) Kostchtchie (no, that's not a misspelling, there really IS 7 consonants in a row here) 10) Lazbral'thull 11) Sch'theraqpasstt (try saying that one 3 times out loud) 12) Zzyczesiya I suspect writers came up with many of these names the same way one determines anything in D&D: with a dice roll. They used a d26....rolled for every letter.

But there's a gigantic difference, especially in a game like PoE, where your character is "the chosen one", where your Biography is filled out and tracked based on every choice you make; and where there will probably be quests and NPCs that react to you based on your class. To replace your character with a different one halfway through would break the narrative. Again, stop defending stupid modern game safety-net mechanics. A distinction without a point. There will be no broken characters in PoE. And the game already gives you difficulty settings in case you manage to build a weak character. So, what's your point? Oh yeah, I forgot who I'm talking to. You don't have one.

In your hypothetical, Bob isn't respeccing, his character is. Which is a rather important distinction, considering that PoE is a party based game where the player is controlling up to 6 characters at once. But your point (And Voss' point) is well taken. PoE is built upon the mechanic that there is a "Main" character. Therefore it's silly to cite PnP as any sort of analogy for that. But hey, lets not let faulty hypotheticals get in the way of our defense of stupid modern game features.

I see. In that case, PoE already has a "respec" feature. Don't like your Wizard? that's fine, get rid of him and hire a Chanter of the exact same level the next time you're at an Inn.

I agree. In that scenario we'll give Bob the option to retire his character and play a different one. We won't, for example, suddenly break the campaign by having the Gods/genie-in-a-bottle/Ring of 10 wishes, drop down from the sky and morph his badly built character into something new and improved, because that would be stupid.

There are several problems with any character respec feature, and trying to mask it by tying it to the narrative does nothing to alleviate these problems. First off, lets be a little more honest with the Choice/Consequence claims. The only reason anyone would ever want to respec their character is if they're unhappy with the way they built them in the first place. So by putting a respec feature in the game, the only "choice" you're adding is.... the choice to fix your build mistakes. In the old days, the solution to a bad build was to replay the game, and try to build a better character the next time out. Crazy, I know. Secondly, story based or not, fantasy world or not, magic or not, it's unbelievable and super-gamey. You've busted your ass to become an 8th level Barbarian. But now you come across a "machine" that will erase your mind and body and replace it with a new mind and body....of a 8th level Chanter (or whatever). Silly. Third, the only respec feature the IE games had were the CluaConsole commands (cheats), and....the character creation screen (starting over). Not sure why that's suddenly not good enough for PoE. Aah. The impregnable catch-all response: "It's Optional!" Here, let me counter it. How about the Developers NOT offer such a retarded modern-gamer safety-net feature, and if you don't like it, you simply go play a more forgiving game?

Define "core part", Because I'd certainly include Pickpocketing as a vital part of my Rogue runs of both BG1 (Algernon's cloak, Cloak of Balduran) And Icewind Dale 1 (ring of free action, necklace of missiles) Plus, lets not forget that Planescape Torment is one of the IE games too, and pickpocketing has quite a few massive quest based uses in PS:T (you can pickpocket Cassius's bandages from him, thus forcing him to give you Trias's sword instead of having to fight him for it; And evidence of Trist's innocence can be had by pickpocketing both Lenny and his boss, etc.) And in all IE games, save for IWD2, you can make money pickpocketing...or save money.

And the lies continue: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70418-is-it-me-or-baldurs-gate-look-better-than-poe/ I hate to be a nitpicker (ok that IS a lie. I love being a nitpicker) but the guy you linked us to is commenting on the stream of the game, not the game. And he even points this distinction out, citing that first tech demo he saw, which he thought was beautiful, and then saying that the latest stream looked ugly and bland by comparison.

Wow. Bunch of lazy one-word answers on this thread lol It says a lot already about this game that it has just about lived up to most of its expectations - considering what those expectations actually are. The infinity engine games were cited on day one. Those are humongous expectations. Those were the greatest games ever made IMO. So in that context, a game that 'lives up to expectations' is something you should probably purchase at any cost. This is where PoE exceeds the expectations. It looks better than any of the IE games. A lot better. Period. And this isn't fanboyism. I've not seen or heard of a single person, on any forum, who has looked at the IE games, then looked at PoE and came to any conclusion other than: PoE looks more beautiful. Of course, a "hater" will respond to such undeniable fact by simply brushing it aside. You'll hear things like "So what.", "Who cares about visuals.", "I prefer modern 3d." etc. This is the only unknown at the moment. We've experienced the beta, and it's not enough to answer the question, since it only contains 3 locales. But for what its worth, consistency is there in those 3. Only you would know your financial situation and what constitutes safe. For me, the only reservations I have is with the game's combat, which is less than great (It's just OK), But if I wasn't already a backer, the game's "OK combat" wouldn't be enough to keep me from confidently pre-ordering the game. Everything else we've seen and experienced is quite good, which is more than we can say for 90% of the RPGs coming out today.