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aluminiumtrioxid replied to PoisonWar's topic in Pen-and-Paper Gaming
Quick question: Jacks can pick up a Trick of the Trade called "Gather Rumors", which lets them spend Intellect to gather rumors when spending a few hours in a town. How is this meaningfully different from "I spend a few hours chatting with the locals, ask around for rumors" *roll roll* "okay, you hear a rumor", aside from not needing to roll (which, given the average rumor-gathering difficulties, is usually a non-issue for any reasonably competent character)? -
Journalism and sexism in the games industry
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
Well, as I've said, I've encountered crappier writing in published books. I'm not really sure gaming journalists have ever given significant coverage to Depression Quest, the game, as opposed to Quinn, the harrassed game developer. -
Journalism and sexism in the games industry
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
I'm not sure in which camp would you place Depression Quest. ...The amount of defense and name-dropping she gets is more related to the amount of harrassment she receives than to the qualities of her game. What you're saying sounds suspiciously like "oh, her game was crap, therefore she deserves to be targeted with harrassment due to her sex life", the underlying logic of which I simply can't process. -
Journalism and sexism in the games industry
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
*shrug* Considering that the genre of adventure games has its roots in Zork and its ilk, I consider interactive fiction to be a subset of video gaming. -
Journalism and sexism in the games industry
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
If I had to guess, it's because you've probably felt how utterly ridiculous the stance "I've experienced depression in a way that doesn't map to the game's depiction, therefore the game's depiction is wrong" is Mind you, there is nothing wrong with the first part of the statement - depression is a multi-faceted thing, and I'm pretty sure no two people experience it in completely the same way -, but when you're concluding that everybody else who doesn't feel the same isn't really depressed, it comes across as pretty damn arrogant. Nope, but as someone who sometimes translates stuff for a living, I can tell you with supreme confidence that I've seen worse writing even from published authors, so I guess it's fit for the purpose of a video game. Yes, I would. Partially because video games as an artistic medium are (or should be) all about communicating their message through game mechanics, which is something Depression Quest does, and partially because it's essentially a "choose your adventure"-thingy, a genre which had a renaissance on handheld consoles a few years ago or something like that - if those are (were?) being sold as games, why shouldn't this be? -
Journalism and sexism in the games industry
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
Games don't need to be fun. Also, "being punished for making obviously terrible choices in the game's context" =/= "game's completely unplayable and commands are totally random". My issues with Depression quest basically boil down to the terrible writing. It boils down to how it's not a little statement about how your girlfriend offers you sex, and yet for whatever reason, you just can't get in the mood and that makes you feel awful. No, it's worded as "why would you want to have sex with me? I just can't believe anyone could love a person like me or wanna do that with me....I'm not in the mood anyways." (Seriously, go play it, this is essentially how it was written with the snippet about loving a person like me being directly quoted) It's soooooo melodramatic and exaggerated that it feels disingenuine to the issue, which to me, hurts the issue of depression rather than helping it. The entire thing feels like a literal pity party rather than a well-written or decent overview of depression. For example on that note, the way she presents the issue with sex seems to imply it's a constant rather than an on and off thing, as well as implying a person with depression wouldn't want sex because they want to fish for compliments instead; that's hardly easy to sympathize with, nor is it true. A simple "not in the mood" while explaining you've no idea why you're not would've sufficed, but her melodramatic overtones seem to pollute the entire story and turn it into this giant pity party; I reacted pretty funny when I came across the parts with "don't say anything, you don't want to burden them with your problems" cause I hadn't expected something accurate and simple in explanation to the typical tone of hers which would've sounded something like "don't say anything. Horrible people like you don't DESERVE to have their problems talked about." But yeah, it's really that simple: the writing is terrible. I was expecting....I commonly believe that people are just as logical and capable of reasoning as you are. May sound simple, but people deem their opposition waaaaaay too often; they don't try to imagine themselves in the other person's shoes and instead give lazy labels like "well obviously they're pure evil." Well, how did I put myself in their shoes....? Up until now, I'd imagined that the anti-GG side might be this avant grade sort of art fanatics club. I was picturing depression quest as a "game" devoid of game mechanics, but strong in narrative. I remember when I first heard it was what the girl was known for, I sympathized, cause I do think depression is something worth writing about. But I'm sorry, that was pathetic. Pathetic both in the writing quality and in the fact that it isn't in fact a video game. I'm pretty sure I could make a "game" like that, as could any of us. So to see that anti-GG defends stuff like that...? Basically my theory of "oh these guys just value artistic messages over gameplay, that's not so bad but I can see how this has created a rift in the industry" fell through completely. Now it's more "oh these guys are a bunch of children circle-jerking and enjoying decent paying jobs with limited responsibility, and they're coming to her aid and defense not because it's warranted but because she's their friend and their bias is showing." Dude, the stuff you're criticizing pretty much maps to exact quotes I've heard from multiple friends being treated with depression. I mean, it's okay to voice criticism, but what you're doing now is denying their experiences as invalid. Which brings us to the question: if the writing accurately depicts how some people who suffer from depression think, is it horrible for being melodramatic? Depressed people sometimes tend to be melodramatic. I was pretty melodramatic when I was a depressed teen (although I suppose that had more to do with me being a teen than with the depression). (On the other hand, my friends in question are in their 20s-30s, so depression might have had something to do with it. It's a mystery!) -
Journalism and sexism in the games industry
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
Oh, look what I've found. -
Journalism and sexism in the games industry
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
I'm generally pretty good at decoding liberal arts major-speak, but that sentence didn't make any sense to me. -
Journalism and sexism in the games industry
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
No, this is not what I meaned. It's obvious that maybe somehow the depression will limit the stuff you do on a daily basis. What I meaned is that the text adventure itself takes over at some point- it robbs the player of all choices and actions. I am not 100% sure right now when exactly this happens, but at some point you just read and press a "continue"-like button to advance until you hit the suicide point (I think it was like that when I tried it back in the days). At this point it is not a game anymore and it's not a good text adventure. Ah. Well, untreated depression can lead to suicide. In the game, you have the option to get a psychiatrist to diagnose your condition, then you can seek therapy and get antidepressants, which make your life ****ty in an entirely different way, but at least your options will remain semi-open(ish). -
Journalism and sexism in the games industry
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
Cool how you remove everything else from the quote and only point to the end of my post. It wasn't especially aimed at you, more like at the pages-long outrage going since the original quote. Couldn't really be bothered to manually quote every relevant response, so I went with the latest one. As for the point you raised, basically what Gorgon said. One counter-example doesn't really address the point. ...So a game about conveying how depression limits your available life choices is... bad for not offering enough choices? I think you may have missed the point. I agree, it could've been done much better or in more depth, but that would've required, among others, an actually talented writer on the team, and some time and money tossed in their direction. What we've gotten instead is pretty much what I expect from a single developer with the resources available for the project. -
Journalism and sexism in the games industry
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
Anita Sarkeesian is a horrible person. Seems like a reasonable claim, but basically impossible to prove. I don't really see your reason for kicking up such a fuss about it? (Re: Depression Quest, I'm fairly sure Longknife's inherent bias has colored his perceptions of the game. Also, decreased interest in sex is a symptom of depression, which, by the way, is an incredibly personal experience anyway, so it's kind of ridiculous to go "well I haven't experienced anything like that, ergo its portrayal of depression is false!4!!") -
Drama and games journalism, soggy leg joint edition
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
That isn't a figurative echo chamber. An echo chamber in that sense is where you say something and it is repeated back to you multiple times after slight delays. If you've got multiple voices (/views) that cannot happen, you say something and you get something different back. Probably something incoherent, if we were talking literally. In a more general sense all communities have 'soft' social control measures that are inherent because communities have a purpose, you won't tend to get big fps fans on a specialist RPG site, so the like minded tend to congregate in the same places anyway, and most people want to be liked. But that's a far cry from having supposedly fair and uncensored 'discussions' where you are obligated to take a particular position as that is the echo chamber as there is no chance to dissent at all without being silenced- and in some cases even insufficient enthusiasm for the party line is cause for being silenced. *shrug* Well, if we define "echo chamber" that way, then I guess strictly moderated places aren't echo chambers either, because within the confines of moderation, there are still separate views. -
Drama and games journalism, soggy leg joint edition
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
On the other hand, more civilized places tend to have a roughly even gender split. -
Drama and games journalism, soggy leg joint edition
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
Essentially what PJ said. Just because a forum isn't banning dissenting voices, that doesn't mean unpopular opinions won't be sanctioned in other ways; the end result is an echo chamber filled with different people - occasionally, new voices might pop up, but they'll eventually leave if they're constantly shouted down for not conforming to the greater chorus of echoes. -
Drama and games journalism, soggy leg joint edition
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
Hah, being 'impolite' getting you banned is funny and doesn't really sound like a forum I'd really enjoy, I guess being passive aggressive is encouraged there ? One problem with ironhanded moderation is it can rapidly end up being an echo chamber with people being how they are. No, being actually polite and apologizing when you've been an asshat to someone is encouraged in my experience. Also, it's a place about tabletop RPGs. That's a fairly apolitical subject to prevent turning it into an echo chamber even when political opinions deemed unsavory by the mod staff are swiftly hit with the banhammer (which, again, isn't my experience with the site - as long as you can voice your opinion in a manner consistent with the spirit of the board rules, eg. behave like a reasonably decent person, said opinion won't be sanctioned). Strangely enough, on sites which enforce a strict no-trolling policy, I haven't run into trolls. It's almost as if there's a connection between making internet forums ****-friendly and said forums being flooded with ****. Nah, you just end up with something Neogaf when you have those policies, where any dissent from the established consensus is labelled as trolling. Thus you get things like their GG 'discussion' thread which is pure circle jerk and where you can get banned for not being negative enough about GG. I'd take some genuine trolls over that DPRKesque- he- who- claps- least- enthusiastically- gets- hands- chopped- off attitude any day of the week, and hour of the day and any minute of the hour. Because zero tolerance for trolling almost always means zero tolerance for different opinions on any subject with any controversy associated with it. Unsurprisingly, that is exactly what the SJWs have shown right from the beginning with their censorious* attitude. Thing is, I'm not sure the laissez-faire attitude of "oh, trolls should be free to troll, even if their ****tiness ends up driving a segment of our forum community away" will produce anything other than an echo chamber filled with different kind of echoes. -
Drama and games journalism, soggy leg joint edition
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
Which forums are those ? These forums are troll friendly I guess, the moderation isn't exactly strict and the members handle themselves and it's not flooded. RPG.net (where being impolite gets one banned), for example. The Onyx Path forums are also pretty troll-free, although I only have a limited experience with them. And I disagree with it. problem? Communicating your disagreement by blurting out "reading comprehension" instead of giving a reason why you disagree makes it rather hard for one to divine what your problem is exactly. -
Drama and games journalism, soggy leg joint edition
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
Strangely enough, on sites which enforce a strict no-trolling policy, I haven't run into trolls. It's almost as if there's a connection between making internet forums ****-friendly and said forums being flooded with ****. -
Drama and games journalism, soggy leg joint edition
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
Wait, that's not what this thread is for? Much like gamergate itself, this thread is pretty much an amorphous blob which isn't really clear on what it's for, but has very strong feelings about it regardless. -
Drama and games journalism, soggy leg joint edition
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
Ah, cool. Venting frustration is an understandable goal. I just don't think there's any kind of meaningful conversation to be had when the only goal of a participant is to blow off steam. http://www.xkcd.com/1357/ If someone tries to forcefully shut you up because he doesn't like what you are saying, how is that not censorship and attack on free speech? I'm not talking about the government here mind you. I'm talking about the spirit of what free speech is. Trying to hurt someone, get him in trouble or otherwise pressure him is deplorable either way you look at it. So, continued harrassment to the point of people giving up their careers in gaming is not censorship and an attack on their artistic integrity/free speech/whatever, but trying to deal with said harrassment is deplorable, because our primary concern should totally lie with the harrassers. Got it. ...Right. Reading comprehension. ...The bolded part is an attitude that's addressed in the article, y'know. Reading comprehension, I guess? -
Drama and games journalism, soggy leg joint edition
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
And I still believe that pushing the same amount of responsibility to the "moral outrage machine" instead of the trolls doing the harrassing is a skeevy attitude. (Also, let it be noted that I've pointed out in my first post on the matter that I don't believe you intended to do any victim-blaming. I'm not a big fan of arguing in bad faith.) -
Drama and games journalism, soggy leg joint edition
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
Yet you're still screaming about them being evil conspiracists instead of trying to trust the free market to sort the whole thing out. Despite your utter confidence in "their ideas not surviving on the free market". Huh. Edit: also, for the nth time, I didn't suggest gaming culture has an issue with critics being TOO critical, it has an issue with critics being critical "in the wrong way". Which I find patently ridiculous. -
Drama and games journalism, soggy leg joint edition
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
Yeah, this is reasonable. On the other hand, it's (sadly) extremely hard to convince authorities that they should take such threats seriously (I mean we'll-find-and-prosecute-them seriously), and I can understand the attitude of people seeking support from their immediate circle of friends and family by talking about their harrassment if they're already ****ed by the authorities. (Whom I don't intend to demonize, by the way - they might have valid reasons for assigning lower priorities to such crimes.) -
Drama and games journalism, soggy leg joint edition
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
Transformers is kind of an extreme example because it is extra terrible but even so it is at a 6.1 Metacritic and not a generous 3 with 26 positive reviews 7 mediocre and 2 bad ones. And ironically enough the same gamer culture that you condemn has not only raged at negative reviews but also complained for years at the scale being basically a 7.5-10. "10/10 IGN" is a joke for a reason. Difference is, I condemn gaming culture for the sheer hypocrisy of always railing on about how "games are ART!" then trying to shut down any discussion of games as art. -
Drama and games journalism, soggy leg joint edition
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
I think it's a vicious circle. The harassers go to work on someone and get their jollies, they get condemned and enjoy it, and the cycle repeats itself. Perhaps not giving the harassers the attention they crave would be a good way of going about this? Condeming them doesn't seem to be stopping them, if anything its only made them worse. I understand the immediate urge to seek new solutions when ones that have been tried have proven to be useless, but this kind of attitude is still putting responsibility on the harrassed party not only for their own issues, but also for gaming culture becoming objectively poorer with minority devs deciding that the current climate is actively hostile to them, and therefore they should leave. This reeks of victim-blaming and I think it should be called out. -
Drama and games journalism, soggy leg joint edition
aluminiumtrioxid replied to Tale's topic in Way Off-Topic
I'm sorry, TN, I know you didn't mean it that way, but don't you think it's a little cold to basically pin the blame for prospective minority game devs leaving the industry on the "moral outrage machine" instead of, y'know, the actual harrassers?