BruceVC

He/she certainly shares your self loathing man hating perspective, while parroting your views almost word for word. So Im not surprised you two "individuals" also like to furiously tap each others like button. " So I'm not surprised you two "individuals" also like to furiously tap each others like button" Your sardonic view on certain topics often makes me laugh. I will say this, it is bizarre that Paradox has almost the exact same views as me on this topic. Trust me I am equally surprised by it. But we don't know each other and I can promise you we are different people But I will say this, he is clearly a highly intelligent person as we can see from how he makes his points . Someone who I would say is a "heavy hitter" . He reminds of Alan and yes I think its great that there is someone of his intellectual capacity that takes these issues seriously. So I hope he stays on the forums and continues to give his opinion

And I think Bruce is attracted to being a Social Justice Warrior (god, how I hate this term) because of his idealistic outlook, not out of any kind of man-hating. Yeah I definitley don't hate my own sex. I just feel we, men, need to do much more to address the scourage of abuse both physical and verbal that women are subjected to in many aspects of society

Well, speaking for myself as a man, when I am in a game (or on a forum) and I see some guy making a stupid comment to a woman I put this jerk on my ignore list. I don't try to start a discussion with him on why I think he should change his ways because if I did he would probably spam me with expletives. I also really don't see how I should be held responsible for jerks just because - and excuse me for putting it crudely- I happen to have a sausage between my legs and they do too. You have raised a good point and that is the normal way most people deal with issues where people are offensive, they ignore or block them and there is nothing wrong with that as many people don't like to be confrontational. But sometimes that emboldens bigots and they think they can act with impunity. So nowadays in most circumstances I confront people who are being offensive, its not always easy to do but I truly feel its the right thing to do. And of course it depends on the environment. For example I wont challange one of my customers around certain issues as I have to respect the customer relationship

Apologies. I mistyped. (I'm sure the quoted text in the input box had your names switched about.) That said, I do believe the comment still holds true in as much as Gfted1 is complicit in allowing the more crude commentary to go unchecked. Right. Well glad you registered here to spread the light. Malxc I have mentioned this before but there aren't enough people on these forums who seem to care about issues like sexism and the objectification of women in games. I know these issues can be nuanced and complex but getting Paradox views makes a refreshing change and he offers some good insight

You agree with SusurrusParadox saying to Nonek, who in my mind has not shown any sexist behaviour here at all: "You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space."? What is implied here is that Nonek is responsible for the jerkish behaviour of other men, even though he has done nothing of the sort. And he should change that, presumably by being very ashamed of himself for being male and agreeing with whatever SusurrusParadox thinks is the best solution. Sorry, but I don't subscribe to this, and neither should you. That was a general comment, actually. You know, aimed at all men? (Yes, all men. There's this thing called responsibility and as members of group [whatever] one should generally take at least some responsibility for the actions of others within that group. Not personal responsibility, but things as simple as "Hey, that's not okay. Knock it off." when someone acts inappropriately.) So yes, Nonek (as a man) should probably speak up when another person that is also a man says something that's incredibly stupid and offensive and reflects poorly on everyone else that happens to also be a man. (That seems like enlightened self-interest, no? If someone does something that's both bigoted nonsense and makes you look bad, you tell them to knock it off?) I was under the impression this thread involved arguments and discussion, not a series of personal conversations between pairs of people. Don't assume everything was aimed at one person just because the bulk of my response was to counter points they had raised. (In other words, "Don't talk it personally".) Oh, and the "abusive backwards cavemen" wasn't aimed at Nonek either. I believe he's mistaken and has faulty reasoning, but I don't believe he's backwards nor has he actually been abusive. Wrong, but not stupid. (Again, general comments on the overall thread/forums being included as part of a full argument.) Although I don't know, maybe he does live in a cave and is remarkably sensitive about it. In which case, I apologise & I'm sure the cave is lovely. Once again I find myself agreeing with most of what you say. You have a way of articulating what I mean to say but sometimes cant quite convey, in fact I wish you were my alt

How are you finding the derogatory references to women? And yes I haven't played this game but its not just the Eurogamer review that made a point of pointing this out. Other gaming websites had the exact same criticism so there must be some truth to it How am I finding them? Mostly by going through the game. *ba-dum-dum-tsch!* Thank you, thank you...I'll be here all week. Be sure to try the veal. Seriously, I'm not sure I'm far enough into it to see anything that's terribly bad (if it exists). There is a scantily clad character who is both commented on (and disliked both for appearance and for "being a witch") and gives back what she gets. There are some unsavory comments regarding women - but this to me seems specific to characters (the biggest amount of "whore" calling, for example, is a drunk) or to the society that has yet to crumble more than some kind of commentary on the real world (certainly exceptional women exist in the world, and aren't all scantily clad sex workers). " How am I finding them? Mostly by going through the game" as usual your humor cracks me up At the end of the game I would like your honest opinion if you felt the offensive references to women are as prevalent as some of the gaming websites have raised. I am interested in an objective opinion on this matter

I hear you squeakymeister. You make some good points and as a lady gamer I am sure you have some insight we don't have. Let me ask you a question though, have you ever been a victim of sexism when you told people you were female. And if so how did you respond? PS Whats for dinner and what time must I get there

It's not the same thing at all. There is a huge bloody difference between creating safe spaces for people that receive rape & death threats as well as heaps of general abuse... and making a special club for bigots. While Nonek's demand comes across as sulky and childish to me, the sweeping generalizations and exaggerations in your reply perplex me even more. First of all, since when is this thread about "rape & death threats" ? Just throwing in some verbal bombs to try and "spice up" your argument, huh? Secondly, don't you see any hypocrisy with instantly pigeon-holing the idea of exclusive men's clubs as "clubs for bigots" while at the very same time promoting the idea of exclusive women's clubs? Women can can legitimately choose to interact with other women, but men choosing to interact with other men is per definition bigotry? That doesn't sound like a morally consistent world view to me. I think you are misunderstanding something, I hope I can explain it properly There is a big difference between a group of men who create a mens only club because they don't respect women or think they are superior to women ( this was historically the reason for most mens clubs) and a group of women who want a womens only club because they are the victim of abuse from men In other words ask yourself honestly how many men you know on the Internet who have told you they have been the victims of excessive sexual verbal abuse from women on forums or games? I don't know any but I can guarantee every lady you know who frequents the Internet has been the victim at least once of sexism or misogyny

You agree with SusurrusParadox saying to Nonek, who in my mind has not shown any sexist behaviour here at all: "You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space."? What is implied here is that Nonek is responsible for the jerkish behaviour of other men, even though he has done nothing of the sort. And he should change that, presumably by being very ashamed of himself for being male and agreeing with whatever SusurrusParadox thinks is the best solution. Sorry, but I don't subscribe to this, and neither should you. I don't think Nonek is a sexist at all, in fact he has only been polite to the various ladies on these forums when I've read his comments. Paradox doesn't know Nonek so his comment to me was more of a general statement around how to address the issue. But Paradox is also an outsider so I can understand how if he didn't know Nonek he would have thought Nonek was being dismissive, hence his seemingly acerbic statement. I don't think we should look to crucifying Paradox, if you leave out the whole cavemen comments he makes some good points? Which is exactly why I responded as I did, giving him the advice not to alienate those who might otherwise be his allies, which resulted in one of your comrades poking fun at me with a hilarious meme. But the meme was funny hey Jadedmeister

You agree with SusurrusParadox saying to Nonek, who in my mind has not shown any sexist behaviour here at all: "You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space."? What is implied here is that Nonek is responsible for the jerkish behaviour of other men, even though he has done nothing of the sort. And he should change that, presumably by being very ashamed of himself for being male and agreeing with whatever SusurrusParadox thinks is the best solution. Sorry, but I don't subscribe to this, and neither should you. I don't think Nonek is a sexist at all, in fact he has only been polite to the various ladies on these forums when I've read his comments. Paradox doesn't know Nonek so his comment to me was more of a general statement around how to address the issue. But Paradox is also an outsider so I can understand how if he didn't know Nonek he would have thought Nonek was being dismissive, hence his seemingly acerbic statement. I don't think we should look to crucifying Paradox, if you leave out the whole cavemen comments he makes some good points?

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Paradox about that. For me this is the crux of this debate, there is a massive difference in giving a small person a box to giving a tall person a box. In this case we should be able to have different considerations for groups that feel they are discriminated against without the websites doing it being criticized

I am hardly dwelling on the insults you enjoyed Bruce merely asking the gentleman to refrain from them in the spirit of good discourse. The mods of those forums have a duty of care to everybody whom frequents the place, it is their responsibility to police the place. As I said earlier creating artifical gender discriminatory hiding places does not tackle the issue, it merely allows the status quo to continue as you wish it to Bruce. If there are gender based groups it is a sign of failure and lack of oversight, if only one gender is treated differently that is inequality pure and simple, both are short term measures that merely mask the problem rather than deal with it. If there is abuse then deal with it as such, if there are threats then deal with them as such and if there is "offense" taken at a little banter then let the offended deal with that themselves, and give back just as good as they recieved. If there is a difference of opinion then let lively free discourse under the sites guidleines ensue, rather than being strangled by offense that one cannot foretell will occur, or one simply does not mean to cause. I never once said I enjoyed his caveman comments directed at certain members of the forum, please don't put words in my mouth I am not focusing on his "insults", its his perspective on the topic I appreciated. Not his minor invective

Yes I do like adult Mods and thought Isabella was smoking hot. But that doesn't mean I find demeaning and offensive references to women acceptable, there is no contradiction here

I've thought about getting this before. I'm generally not that much into shooters (not named S.T.A.L.K.E.R.), though I do enjoy them once in a while, and I like that this game supposedly makes you face the gruesome consequences of your actions, rather than being the standard Murica, **** yeah! *brofist* *chest bump* fare. I have heard the same thing around the consequences. Most people say its a good game and its the first time I've seen it on this type of special price

So, with this kind of tone, do you really believe that you're going to achieve anything? Because quite honestly, I think you'll achieve exactly the opposite. By generalizing and finger pointing, you turn off rational people who might otherwise actually listen to what you have to say. Just a word of advice. No you won't get through to someone like Bester by being nice. Either he thinks its funny to troll and be utterly dismissive of serious issues of social justice or he is being serious. Either way I don't care what he thinks. And SusurrusParadox is right, its exactly attitudes like Besters that lady gamers want there own space and frankly can you blame them He was talking to Nonek, he wasn't talking to Bester. What I object to is the implication that every single man is responsible for all the misdeeds done by some men who are jerks. By the way, these same jerks who annoy women in games are probably jerks to pretty much everyone. While I don't object to separate spaces for women who want them, I think the real problem is taking care of this jerkish behaviour in general. For me the problem is lack of moderation and lack of punishment of jerkish behavior. So rather than targeting all men just because of the fact that some men are jerks why not try to get game makers to enforce moderation to get rid of jerkish behaviour. To be honest no one has ever said all men are sexist jerks, this is what people like Volo say as a deflection mechanism instead of having to acknowledge there is a problem that needs to be discussed and addressed. Its a Strawman argument. Most men treat women very well and respect them but we do have a real problem with sexism and misogyny from some quarters "You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space." I agree, but it should be clear that certain people refuse to change there behavior

You don't need a club of your own.Yo You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space. No I don't need a club of my own and neither do women, artificial seperation achieves nothing but one group having preferential treatment because of their gender, it feeds and adds to the problem it is trying to tackle. As for changing my behaviour, I am nothing but polite and civil to any and everybody, and always have been. Changing others behaviour, that is most certainly not my responsibility but their own, and the site they are upon if in a virtual construct such as this. Yes Nonek because at the moment your constant suggestion to keep the status quo as is seems to be really achieving the desired result where there are numerous and constant examples of the harrasment and verbal abuse of female gamers. You know the definition of madness Nonek "is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" Whom exactly is arguing for the status quo Bruce? I am arguing for the change and the two genders and the forums facing their problem, rather than hiding themselves away in gender discriminatory forums. This does nothing but exacerbates the problem and allows the abusers free reign within the general space, which seems to be the status quo. This is simple logic. I am most certainly not the individual attempting a Sisyphean task out of pure vanity Bruce, and expecting different results each time. I rather object to being called an abusive backwards caveman, and hardly think I have done or said anything to warrant this title, so please refrain from the abuse Mr Paradox. A solid argument needs neither inuslts nor outrage. Nonek, I really enjoy your posts and respect your opinion so I hope you don't take these debates personally. But can we please move on from the "abusive backwards cavemen" comments. As you have told me numerous times its just words and people must have thick skins on the Internet. By focusing on that and suddenly being offended I find it totally out of character for you and completley hypercritical to what you have explained to me in the past about insults on places like RPGCodex and how people need to deal with comments Lets focus on the topic and not what someone called you. Now you are suggesting that a separate space for lady gamers wouldn't work or be the best way to address abuse of female gamers. But we also know in the Star Citizen example the Mods and all current measures don't do enough as there a clear objective from the lady gamers to have there own area., How can you think that increased Mod influence would solve this? That is the status quo just trying to enhance it. Of course there will be some lady gamers who don't care and will join male dominated guilds and groups. But end of the day the problem of abuse towards women in certain games needs a paradigm shift and even though I agree in some respects it seems like admitting failure if groups of lady gamers want there own groups this should be accepted due to the circumstances ?

So, with this kind of tone, do you really believe that you're going to achieve anything? Because quite honestly, I think you'll achieve exactly the opposite. By generalizing and finger pointing, you turn off rational people who might otherwise actually listen to what you have to say. Just a word of advice. No you won't get through to someone like Bester by being nice. Either he thinks its funny to troll and be utterly dismissive of serious issues of social justice or he is being serious. Either way I don't care what he thinks. And SusurrusParadox is right, its exactly attitudes like Besters that lady gamers want there own space and frankly can you blame them He was talking to Nonek, he wasn't talking to Bester. What I object to is the implication that every single man is responsible for all the misdeeds done by some men who are jerks. By the way, these same jerks who annoy women in games are probably jerks to pretty much everyone. While I don't object to separate spaces for women who want them, I think the real problem is taking care of this jerkish behaviour in general. For me the problem is lack of moderation and lack of punishment of jerkish behavior. So rather than targeting all men just because of the fact that some men are jerks why not try to get game makers to enforce moderation to get rid of jerkish behaviour. To be honest no one has ever said all men are sexist jerks, this is what people like Volo say as a deflection mechanism instead of having to acknowledge there is a problem that needs to be discussed and addressed. Its a Strawman argument. Most men treat women very well and respect them but we do have a real problem with sexism and misogyny from some quarters

Welcome to patriarchy. But if you consider yourself an ally, it is kind of your job to educate the abusive backwards cavemen, because they will probably listen to the same arguments even less if they come out of the mouths of [insert marginalized group]. Word of friendly advice, though: most people here are fairly educated and intelligent (while unquestionably holding some pretty iffy opinions). Insulting them will get you nowhere, rational arguments might. (Probably won't, but you're dealing with massive amounts of cognitive dissonance, expecting things to change overnight is fairly unrealistic.) As usual you make some good points but I think everyone can handle some direct debate and opinions

I was waiting for someone to suggest that, no he is not my alt. I have only one alt, BruceVC

I especially like how their first posts ever on the forum are to attack everyone that doesn't agree. Classy. Or maybe he actually took acception at a highly contriversial opinion that for many just seems normal but in fact is not.

And yet the solution you advocate is to have women artificially seperated from men and granted a superior status, if you want women to be accepted hiding them away and treating them differently is not the correct method, a five year old could reason that out Bruce. It will do nothing except exacerbate the problem. No Nonek, I am not suggesting that now we automatically separate every female gamer from all men and they don't interact. I am saying if female gamers want there own space let them have it. But this should be optional. Then men should have their own space also, this is simple equality Bruce, if they have paid an equal amount of money then they should be treated exactly the same in all matters. To do otherwise is inequality, something that should never be tolerated. It's not the same thing at all. There is a huge bloody difference between creating safe spaces for people that receive rape & death threats as well as heaps of general abuse... and making a special club for bigots. (Although, if you want a 'permabanned forever' club for that group then by all means I support that.) That's the thing about equality. Giving a short (disadvantaged) person a box (assistance) so they can reach something (objective) is not the same as giving a tall (privileged) person a box too. They don't need the box. They never needed the box. The existing circumstances are already biased in their favour. It's not about giving everyone a thing and assuming that's "fair". It's not, because that completely disregards the basic definition of "equal". If you don't want segregation, maybe you should be tackling the individuals posting bigoted commentary or insulting women or insulting anyone that even remotely supports making this environment (and others) welcoming and inclusive and safe and friendly and, dare I say it, fun. Isn't that the point? As it is, it looks like abusive backwards cavemen dominate the discourse here. Not exactly an appealing environment for anyone, much less women. I don't know who you are SusurrusParadox but I am really enjoying your perspective and insight in this topic

You don't need a club of your own.Yo You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space. No I don't need a club of my own and neither do women, artificial seperation achieves nothing but one group having preferential treatment because of their gender, it feeds and adds to the problem it is trying to tackle. As for changing my behaviour, I am nothing but polite and civil to any and everybody, and always have been. Changing others behaviour, that is most certainly not my responsibility but their own, and the site they are upon if in a virtual construct such as this. Yes Nonek because at the moment your constant suggestion to keep the status quo as is seems to be really achieving the desired result where there are numerous and constant examples of the harrasment and verbal abuse of female gamers. You know the definition of madness Nonek "is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

Spec Ops : The Line is $8 on Steam at the moment. I'm going to buy it

Funny enough, IMO, thats one of the biggest issues with the lack of empathy from certain sectors in society and many people on these forums. They don't care about issues of social justice because they are white heterosexual males and have never been victims of bigotry and discrimination so they don't bother to try to understand it.

So, with this kind of tone, do you really believe that you're going to achieve anything? Because quite honestly, I think you'll achieve exactly the opposite. By generalizing and finger pointing, you turn off rational people who might otherwise actually listen to what you have to say. Just a word of advice. No you won't get through to someone like Bester by being nice. Either he thinks its funny to troll and be utterly dismissive of serious issues of social justice or he is being serious. Either way I don't care what he thinks. And SusurrusParadox is right, its exactly attitudes like Besters that lady gamers want there own space and frankly can you blame them