BruceVC

Really? You should. I don't know about how old Bruce is, but it could very well be he's young enough not to have had any part in Apartheid, so if that's so I wouldn't hold him responsible for something he has had nothing to do with. Just like I wouldn't hold young Germans responsible for what happened during the second world war. 100 % correct, when you are right you are right Jadedmeister. I think Monte knows this but he is just trying to get a reaction from me

Really? You should. Why? I wasn't involved in the voting or support of the Apartheid system, I was too young . My parents may feel guilty but they supported a liberal political party in South Africa. I prefer to look forward and focus on how I can improve South Africa and not base my actions on some misplaced sense of guilt for something I had no control over

And I think Bruce is attracted to being a Social Justice Warrior (god, how I hate this term) because of his idealistic outlook, not out of any kind of man-hating. Bruce is South African. Liberal South Africans are like those Germans born in the 1950s who felt guilty about the war and never stopped apologizing for it. They ended up joining the SPD and Greens while feeling tender towards the Commies who'd stolen the other half of their country. Their liberal self-loathing radiates from them like Polonium 210. Nice people, when all's said and done, but the product of a system that lionises guilt. Mind you, they've plenty to feel guilty about but how you process it is what counts. As for our Social Justice Troll, who seems to want to police an entire gender to suit his tastes... whatever. Monte did you read Paradox comments, if not please go back and read what he said. It wont take you long and he makes some very cogent and reasonable points around this issue. Also I don't feel guilty about Apartheid but I am motivated around issues of social justice because I have seen how people have suffered due to bigotry. This is an important distinction than saying I am driven by guilt

Gromnir I'll tell you something interesting and true. In life you don't need to know any minority group or person being discriminated against in order to feel empathy. All you need to do is ask yourself " how would I like to be treated like that" If the answer is " no I wouldn't like that" then I can guarantee you the minority group also wouldn't like it For example, how would you feel if a group of people refused to allow you into a restaurant with your family or partner because of the color of your skin? They gave no other reason except for " no your type aren't welcome here". How would you feel...hurt ...embarrassed...humiliated....? This are the types of emotionas that people who are discriminated against feel and I'm sure you agree this wouldn't be a nice experience yet I doubt you have ever been stopped going into a restaurant because of the color of your skin? as a minority, we believe your perspective is a bit... simple. am actual a teeny bit perturbed, and our knee-jerk reaction is to kinda rub your nose in your error to make a point, but that wouldn't be helpful. *deep breath* regardless. we mentioned above that empathy didn't help us with our girlfriend's pov. she were genuine bothered by the portrayal o' male & females in Children of Dune. sure, we could, after-the-fact, kinda imagine how the tv miniseries were sexist and demeaning, but that ain't genuine understanding, and only way it helped us were to be realizing that we don't get it-- where "it" is The Female Pov. the last thing our girlfriend woulda' wanted were some kinda patronizing faux empathy. "i feel your pain." nonsense. HA! Good Fun! ps serious, don't make assumptions that may come back to bite you in the arse. You see I have no issue admitting I made an incorrect characterization when I assumed you weren't a minority group, I apologize. What minority group are you so I don't repeat the mistake? But I don't see how that changes my point, I don't need to be a minority group to say I can empathize with the victims of bigotry. This is not "I feel your pain nonsense" This is something I take seriously and believe in because I live in a country that discriminated against people because of there color of there skin. Fundamentally growing up in the appalling system of Apartheid has helped to shape my views on issues of social justice

Gromnir I'll tell you something interesting and true. In life you don't need to know any minority group or person being discriminated against in order to feel empathy. All you need to do is ask yourself " how would I like to be treated like that" If the answer is " no I wouldn't like that" then I can guarantee you the minority group also wouldn't like it For example, how would you feel if a group of people refused to allow you into a restaurant with your family or partner because of the color of your skin? They gave no other reason except for " no your type aren't welcome here". How would you feel...hurt ...embarrassed...humiliated....? This are the types of emotionas that people who are discriminated against feel and I'm sure you agree this wouldn't be a nice experience yet I doubt you have ever been stopped going into a restaurant because of the color of your skin? Institutional segregation tends to look like that, individual has more of a personal touch. There is often a few specific reason that are called upon when people try to justify their hate or rationalize it. The sad part is when it becomes hard to argue against it. My point is that people have different experiences regarding races and stereotypes and in homogeneous cultures they usually tend to be limited to a small sample. So while you might think of a normal person of African or Indian descent others might first recall the gangbanger who wore his pants below his underwear, spat when he spoke and was generally just a ****ty human being. I agree that promoting diversity helps avert this problem by increasing the sample size, but I dislike the notion that mentioning certain facts are dismissed as racist, homophobic, or misogynist simply because they are of an antagonistic nature. Fair enough, but don't you agree there is a thin line between mentioning facts and a racist\offensive comment ?

Gromnir I'll tell you something interesting and true. In life you don't need to know any minority group or person being discriminated against in order to feel empathy. All you need to do is ask yourself " how would I like to be treated like that" If the answer is " no I wouldn't like that" then I can guarantee you the minority group also wouldn't like it For example, how would you feel if a group of people refused to allow you into a restaurant with your family or partner because of the color of your skin? They gave no other reason except for " no your type aren't welcome here". How would you feel...hurt ...embarrassed...humiliated....? This are the types of emotionas that people who are discriminated against feel and I'm sure you agree this wouldn't be a nice experience yet I doubt you have ever been stopped going into a restaurant because of the color of your skin?

Hi Squeakymeister, "waves" "Romance your officers" ...first day purchase for sure

Oh you do make me laugh Nonek.. I think its great that we have a thread dedicated to issues of social justice, a topic that despite your claims on not really caring much about you post continously in. And I'm not complaining. I enjoy your posts and this was your idea after all so the least you can do is contribute towards it

Well aside from judging the forum from one thread, insinuating a moderator is planning to or will persecute him and that there is indeed crude commentary in this place, I guess there is something refreshing there. *ahem* I judged it on at least two threads. (Actually more, but two that I actually paid attention to properly.) So there. (& there's definitely bigotry and crude commentary present as well as derogatory terminology being used in some instances. There's certainly also some backlash, but it's not universal. I mean, case in point: you have a thread about whether women [to identify a single frequently-disadvantaged group] in gaming are disrespected and whether steps should be taken to address that, and if so then what those should be.. yet people are attempting to argue that it isn't the case or the status quo is fine and things will just.. magically sort themselves out? Without any actual action or change?) Though if you'd rather weakly snark in my general direction instead of respond to points then that's your prerogative. I'm well-aware I was being argumentative and confrontational. That does tend to be the case when arguments are taking place. (Would you rather I treated you like a delicate flower? Some seem to be vehemently against anything like that.) As for moderators, well.. based on the available evidence at least one of them doesn't seem up to par. My experience has been that, given any authority, a significant proportion of people will tend to either be inept or corrupt. They're ineffectual or they're abusive. Varies in degree, but that does tend to be the case. (I'd welcome being proved wrong on that.) Good trolling though, perhaps Gfted1 will take the bait. Malc I have said this numerous times before but you must stop thinking people are trolling when they are actually engaging in an interesting or controversial debate Trolling is not an exchange of intelligent or different views but is done only to get a emotional reaction, this discussion is not about trolling in any respects

Double post

He/she certainly shares your self loathing man hating perspective, while parroting your views almost word for word. So Im not surprised you two "individuals" also like to furiously tap each others like button. " So I'm not surprised you two "individuals" also like to furiously tap each others like button" Your sardonic view on certain topics often makes me laugh. I will say this, it is bizarre that Paradox has almost the exact same views as me on this topic. Trust me I am equally surprised by it. But we don't know each other and I can promise you we are different people But I will say this, he is clearly a highly intelligent person as we can see from how he makes his points . Someone who I would say is a "heavy hitter" . He reminds of Alan and yes I think its great that there is someone of his intellectual capacity that takes these issues seriously. So I hope he stays on the forums and continues to give his opinion

And I think Bruce is attracted to being a Social Justice Warrior (god, how I hate this term) because of his idealistic outlook, not out of any kind of man-hating. Yeah I definitley don't hate my own sex. I just feel we, men, need to do much more to address the scourage of abuse both physical and verbal that women are subjected to in many aspects of society

Well, speaking for myself as a man, when I am in a game (or on a forum) and I see some guy making a stupid comment to a woman I put this jerk on my ignore list. I don't try to start a discussion with him on why I think he should change his ways because if I did he would probably spam me with expletives. I also really don't see how I should be held responsible for jerks just because - and excuse me for putting it crudely- I happen to have a sausage between my legs and they do too. You have raised a good point and that is the normal way most people deal with issues where people are offensive, they ignore or block them and there is nothing wrong with that as many people don't like to be confrontational. But sometimes that emboldens bigots and they think they can act with impunity. So nowadays in most circumstances I confront people who are being offensive, its not always easy to do but I truly feel its the right thing to do. And of course it depends on the environment. For example I wont challange one of my customers around certain issues as I have to respect the customer relationship

Apologies. I mistyped. (I'm sure the quoted text in the input box had your names switched about.) That said, I do believe the comment still holds true in as much as Gfted1 is complicit in allowing the more crude commentary to go unchecked. Right. Well glad you registered here to spread the light. Malxc I have mentioned this before but there aren't enough people on these forums who seem to care about issues like sexism and the objectification of women in games. I know these issues can be nuanced and complex but getting Paradox views makes a refreshing change and he offers some good insight

You agree with SusurrusParadox saying to Nonek, who in my mind has not shown any sexist behaviour here at all: "You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space."? What is implied here is that Nonek is responsible for the jerkish behaviour of other men, even though he has done nothing of the sort. And he should change that, presumably by being very ashamed of himself for being male and agreeing with whatever SusurrusParadox thinks is the best solution. Sorry, but I don't subscribe to this, and neither should you. That was a general comment, actually. You know, aimed at all men? (Yes, all men. There's this thing called responsibility and as members of group [whatever] one should generally take at least some responsibility for the actions of others within that group. Not personal responsibility, but things as simple as "Hey, that's not okay. Knock it off." when someone acts inappropriately.) So yes, Nonek (as a man) should probably speak up when another person that is also a man says something that's incredibly stupid and offensive and reflects poorly on everyone else that happens to also be a man. (That seems like enlightened self-interest, no? If someone does something that's both bigoted nonsense and makes you look bad, you tell them to knock it off?) I was under the impression this thread involved arguments and discussion, not a series of personal conversations between pairs of people. Don't assume everything was aimed at one person just because the bulk of my response was to counter points they had raised. (In other words, "Don't talk it personally".) Oh, and the "abusive backwards cavemen" wasn't aimed at Nonek either. I believe he's mistaken and has faulty reasoning, but I don't believe he's backwards nor has he actually been abusive. Wrong, but not stupid. (Again, general comments on the overall thread/forums being included as part of a full argument.) Although I don't know, maybe he does live in a cave and is remarkably sensitive about it. In which case, I apologise & I'm sure the cave is lovely. Once again I find myself agreeing with most of what you say. You have a way of articulating what I mean to say but sometimes cant quite convey, in fact I wish you were my alt

How are you finding the derogatory references to women? And yes I haven't played this game but its not just the Eurogamer review that made a point of pointing this out. Other gaming websites had the exact same criticism so there must be some truth to it How am I finding them? Mostly by going through the game. *ba-dum-dum-tsch!* Thank you, thank you...I'll be here all week. Be sure to try the veal. Seriously, I'm not sure I'm far enough into it to see anything that's terribly bad (if it exists). There is a scantily clad character who is both commented on (and disliked both for appearance and for "being a witch") and gives back what she gets. There are some unsavory comments regarding women - but this to me seems specific to characters (the biggest amount of "whore" calling, for example, is a drunk) or to the society that has yet to crumble more than some kind of commentary on the real world (certainly exceptional women exist in the world, and aren't all scantily clad sex workers). " How am I finding them? Mostly by going through the game" as usual your humor cracks me up At the end of the game I would like your honest opinion if you felt the offensive references to women are as prevalent as some of the gaming websites have raised. I am interested in an objective opinion on this matter

I hear you squeakymeister. You make some good points and as a lady gamer I am sure you have some insight we don't have. Let me ask you a question though, have you ever been a victim of sexism when you told people you were female. And if so how did you respond? PS Whats for dinner and what time must I get there

It's not the same thing at all. There is a huge bloody difference between creating safe spaces for people that receive rape & death threats as well as heaps of general abuse... and making a special club for bigots. While Nonek's demand comes across as sulky and childish to me, the sweeping generalizations and exaggerations in your reply perplex me even more. First of all, since when is this thread about "rape & death threats" ? Just throwing in some verbal bombs to try and "spice up" your argument, huh? Secondly, don't you see any hypocrisy with instantly pigeon-holing the idea of exclusive men's clubs as "clubs for bigots" while at the very same time promoting the idea of exclusive women's clubs? Women can can legitimately choose to interact with other women, but men choosing to interact with other men is per definition bigotry? That doesn't sound like a morally consistent world view to me. I think you are misunderstanding something, I hope I can explain it properly There is a big difference between a group of men who create a mens only club because they don't respect women or think they are superior to women ( this was historically the reason for most mens clubs) and a group of women who want a womens only club because they are the victim of abuse from men In other words ask yourself honestly how many men you know on the Internet who have told you they have been the victims of excessive sexual verbal abuse from women on forums or games? I don't know any but I can guarantee every lady you know who frequents the Internet has been the victim at least once of sexism or misogyny

You agree with SusurrusParadox saying to Nonek, who in my mind has not shown any sexist behaviour here at all: "You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space."? What is implied here is that Nonek is responsible for the jerkish behaviour of other men, even though he has done nothing of the sort. And he should change that, presumably by being very ashamed of himself for being male and agreeing with whatever SusurrusParadox thinks is the best solution. Sorry, but I don't subscribe to this, and neither should you. I don't think Nonek is a sexist at all, in fact he has only been polite to the various ladies on these forums when I've read his comments. Paradox doesn't know Nonek so his comment to me was more of a general statement around how to address the issue. But Paradox is also an outsider so I can understand how if he didn't know Nonek he would have thought Nonek was being dismissive, hence his seemingly acerbic statement. I don't think we should look to crucifying Paradox, if you leave out the whole cavemen comments he makes some good points? Which is exactly why I responded as I did, giving him the advice not to alienate those who might otherwise be his allies, which resulted in one of your comrades poking fun at me with a hilarious meme. But the meme was funny hey Jadedmeister

You agree with SusurrusParadox saying to Nonek, who in my mind has not shown any sexist behaviour here at all: "You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space."? What is implied here is that Nonek is responsible for the jerkish behaviour of other men, even though he has done nothing of the sort. And he should change that, presumably by being very ashamed of himself for being male and agreeing with whatever SusurrusParadox thinks is the best solution. Sorry, but I don't subscribe to this, and neither should you. I don't think Nonek is a sexist at all, in fact he has only been polite to the various ladies on these forums when I've read his comments. Paradox doesn't know Nonek so his comment to me was more of a general statement around how to address the issue. But Paradox is also an outsider so I can understand how if he didn't know Nonek he would have thought Nonek was being dismissive, hence his seemingly acerbic statement. I don't think we should look to crucifying Paradox, if you leave out the whole cavemen comments he makes some good points?

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Paradox about that. For me this is the crux of this debate, there is a massive difference in giving a small person a box to giving a tall person a box. In this case we should be able to have different considerations for groups that feel they are discriminated against without the websites doing it being criticized

I am hardly dwelling on the insults you enjoyed Bruce merely asking the gentleman to refrain from them in the spirit of good discourse. The mods of those forums have a duty of care to everybody whom frequents the place, it is their responsibility to police the place. As I said earlier creating artifical gender discriminatory hiding places does not tackle the issue, it merely allows the status quo to continue as you wish it to Bruce. If there are gender based groups it is a sign of failure and lack of oversight, if only one gender is treated differently that is inequality pure and simple, both are short term measures that merely mask the problem rather than deal with it. If there is abuse then deal with it as such, if there are threats then deal with them as such and if there is "offense" taken at a little banter then let the offended deal with that themselves, and give back just as good as they recieved. If there is a difference of opinion then let lively free discourse under the sites guidleines ensue, rather than being strangled by offense that one cannot foretell will occur, or one simply does not mean to cause. I never once said I enjoyed his caveman comments directed at certain members of the forum, please don't put words in my mouth I am not focusing on his "insults", its his perspective on the topic I appreciated. Not his minor invective

Yes I do like adult Mods and thought Isabella was smoking hot. But that doesn't mean I find demeaning and offensive references to women acceptable, there is no contradiction here

I've thought about getting this before. I'm generally not that much into shooters (not named S.T.A.L.K.E.R.), though I do enjoy them once in a while, and I like that this game supposedly makes you face the gruesome consequences of your actions, rather than being the standard Murica, **** yeah! *brofist* *chest bump* fare. I have heard the same thing around the consequences. Most people say its a good game and its the first time I've seen it on this type of special price

So, with this kind of tone, do you really believe that you're going to achieve anything? Because quite honestly, I think you'll achieve exactly the opposite. By generalizing and finger pointing, you turn off rational people who might otherwise actually listen to what you have to say. Just a word of advice. No you won't get through to someone like Bester by being nice. Either he thinks its funny to troll and be utterly dismissive of serious issues of social justice or he is being serious. Either way I don't care what he thinks. And SusurrusParadox is right, its exactly attitudes like Besters that lady gamers want there own space and frankly can you blame them He was talking to Nonek, he wasn't talking to Bester. What I object to is the implication that every single man is responsible for all the misdeeds done by some men who are jerks. By the way, these same jerks who annoy women in games are probably jerks to pretty much everyone. While I don't object to separate spaces for women who want them, I think the real problem is taking care of this jerkish behaviour in general. For me the problem is lack of moderation and lack of punishment of jerkish behavior. So rather than targeting all men just because of the fact that some men are jerks why not try to get game makers to enforce moderation to get rid of jerkish behaviour. To be honest no one has ever said all men are sexist jerks, this is what people like Volo say as a deflection mechanism instead of having to acknowledge there is a problem that needs to be discussed and addressed. Its a Strawman argument. Most men treat women very well and respect them but we do have a real problem with sexism and misogyny from some quarters "You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space." I agree, but it should be clear that certain people refuse to change there behavior