BruceVC

Suppose PoE had Romances, but only with hideous, old characters that don't apply to your sense for aesthetics, but great personalities. Would you be happy and rest your case? More to the point, suppose that there is an RPG that demands storywise that you can only play an old character, so that the same constraint fits from a story point of view. Having kids is also out of the question due to age. Would you be happy? Interesting question, its very hypothetical the suggestion that a development company would create a party of ugly old characters and expect Romance to be as popular? But to answer your question, no I don't think the Romance arc would be as appealing. And the reason is I wouldn't be able to identify with my party members as easily. Also I am not dismissing the relevance of classic love stories like Beauty and the Beast, I am saying they are not normally applicable in RL. In other words I have to be attracted to someone to have a Romantic interest in, I could not date someone that I'm not on some level physically attracted to. I imagine this is the same for most people? Ok, suppose I actually make the game 'Senior Citizen Merlin, mature of time' featuring Merlin the Wizard as Main Character with Companions Gandalf, Dumbledore, Ravel and some other olderly Wizard Women, for which I somehow got the licencing rights. You said you don't find the arc to be appealing, but would the game be better for featuring romance between the old characters or could I skip it without loss? It's an awesome game btw, so there is no denying anyone would want to play it, so thats not an issue. Another interesting question, before I answer do you think any company would make an RPG where the protagonists are all old people? I doubt it, it may sound like ageism but considering the market for games is people who are less than 50 years old most companies wouldn't make a game where they feel there potential market wouldn't identify with the characters So in your example it would be best to not only skip the Romance but also to skip the whole game idea. Its well meaning but I can't see too many people buying in to the idea, but I may be wrong

I completely understand that boots on the ground may not seem to be the right strategy for a number of reasons. But the reality is its much better than targeted bombing of buildings in Gaza in the hope that somehow this will cause Hamas to change there approach around using rockets to gain sympathy and effect political change. And yes now the Israeli casualty toll will increase, but this will hopefully raise awareness and emphasize that a permanent solution needs to be found where both sides have to realize that various compromises have to made. Because that what seems to be lacking from some of the negotiations, a real sense of compromise The opinion of the world in this conflict does matter and collateral damage does matter. And the fact is most citizens in most countries in the world are not prepared to accept that bombing Gaza, without ground troops to minimize casualties, is the right way to deal with Hamas and the Palestinian conflict

Well I know I wouldn't. Though, not everyone is as beautiful as I am, so I figure some people get desperate. I've got to admit, I got about four or five pages in to the thread and skipped to the end so I apologize if this point has been made but given how formulaic romances have typically been within the genre, I'm almost glad they aren't going to be included. It got to a point, especially in Dragon Age, where I cared less about any emotional investment in the story arc and more about "oh *%$&£, I've got to say the right thing here - or I'll miss content." That in itself completely ruined any immersion. I'm all for character interaction, it's what made BG:SoA so amazing and it's why IWD always felt a little soulless but if you want to really immerse yourself you need to be free to pick dialogue options and take character relationships in a direction that you feel appropriately correlate to your perception of this character you're trying to play. When you're shackled by "you've got to get in her pants if you want this sweet +3 longbow" or "bang the drow cleric if you want her rewarding side-quest" it loses a lot of it's merit. I have the same view on IWD, it was a fun game but there was definitely something lacking from your party interaction, soulless is a good word to describe it

Its very good, you get to play the game in the slums of Brazil. Its your standard FPS but the story is entertaining and believable But I suppose it depends on why you didn't like the first one?

Except Gromnir, your context is crap. You cannot compare a bunch of disgruntled, desperate, stupid people with limited support and technical cababilities with a formal, well-equipped, modern military of a "democratic" government (that ignores every UN resolution never) You said it yourself that hamas doesn't have the ability to fire those rockets accurately. The ways in which hamas can fight, given Israels security and military might, is very limited indeed. Terrorism is generally NOT the first choice of action for people. Israels behavior and policies are a breeding ground for desperate people with a desire to strike back. But no reals means to do so. Israel is keeping the Gaza strip a miserable place, by bombing it to stone age periodically. Or did you fail to notice how civilian infrastructure (power, water, factories, roads) seem to take the biggest hit in each "intervention"? is as much the case that hamas is keeping gaza a miserable place. and the fact that rockets is inaccurate doesn't change the fact that they is being fired into israeli settlements from palestinian civilian homes, business, schools, places o' worship, etc. the v-1 and v-2 rockets that dropped on england weren't accurate either. accuracy is not a serious issue, is it? hell, it makes more difficult for israeli civilians to prepare as they has no idea whatsoever where next rocket will drop. and as an israeli politician it is political suicide to just sit back and allow your people to be chased into shelters and bunkers on a daily basis. but again, israelis ain't blameless here. we suspect that they ain't been genuine 'bout finding a peaceful solution that would benefit both sides for over a decade. HA! Good Fun! ps am suggesting caution: you don't seem to realize that your perspective is functional legitimizing any and all terrorist organizations. Gromnir I use to think that the Israeli strategy of using bombs was understandable considering the fact that Hamas was firing rockets from Gaza. But I have changed my mind as this approach is collective punishment but more importantly it doesn't necessarily target Hamas There has to be a response from Israel but the way to do it is the way they are now following, a ground invasion. This obviously isn't the ideal approach for Israel as there will be casualties. But that's the reality of the situation Can you imagine what would be the fallout in the various conflicts, in the last 30 years, that Western countries have been involved in if the strategy to pacify an area was just to rely on bombs? Sometimes ground troops are more surgical and can reduce civilian casualties which are an important consideration when you think of the outcome from any military exercise

Suppose PoE had Romances, but only with hideous, old characters that don't apply to your sense for aesthetics, but great personalities. Would you be happy and rest your case? More to the point, suppose that there is an RPG that demands storywise that you can only play an old character, so that the same constraint fits from a story point of view. Having kids is also out of the question due to age. Would you be happy? Interesting question, its very hypothetical the suggestion that a development company would create a party of ugly old characters and expect Romance to be as popular? But to answer your question, no I don't think the Romance arc would be as appealing. And the reason is I wouldn't be able to identify with my party members as easily. Also I am not dismissing the relevance of classic love stories like Beauty and the Beast, I am saying they are not normally applicable in RL. In other words I have to be attracted to someone to have a Romantic interest in, I could not date someone that I'm not on some level physically attracted to. I imagine this is the same for most people?

someone hacked your account Bruce? No I don't think I've ever said Romance is the most important part of an RPG, its only important in the interaction between party members which for me represents about 10-15 % of the total entertainment of an RPG. And the reality is why ask questions on Romance in a live interview when we know there won't be Romance in PoE? That would be an utter waste

If I had to guess, I'd say it's probably because unless you actively try to recall them, you forget 90% of them in minutes, but by writing them down, you're training yourself to try to remember them upon waking. Yes that's correct and also this is to help you remember dreams when they are very similar and repetitive

I love cheese, I have 3 different cookbooks on using cheese in various meals

WTF are you talking about? He seems to be confusing the fact that myself and others said "there were no survivors from the crash "to us saying "we are glad all those people died because it does make Russia look bad "..

I am making myself homemade burgers for lunch, I like making my own hamburgers because I can experiment with toppings and the meat, like adding Veal, content of the actual burger

That's a great post, thanks for taking the time to share his insight To be honest I am glad no one asked about Romance because all those topics you mentioned I find in one way or another more relevant than a Romance debate which shouldn't overshadow more important components of a RPG

I haven't played it but there are several people at one of my customers who are addicted to it and say its the best tactical shooter they have ever played. They want me to join there group and MP with them.

Well I wish you a speedy recovery How did you say you broke your hand again?

No, Bruce. Wrong country. hahaha. I know different countries are confusing to you but what you're suggesting has nothing to do with Australia. That's a different country you're thinking of altogether. Nice try though. Nothing like someone who tries to make a joke and fails dismally by confusing it with another country. But it was still funny right, at least it made you laugh. It made me laugh I'm not avoiding this discussion as I'm really enjoying it but I have things to do today. So lets continue this debate later where I can respond accordingly to your questions?

It's not inappropriate or irrelevant. I think I can sum up that you yourself have to be able to connect physically before any emotional involvement and not the other way around. There's no way you could connect emotionally first with an 'unattractive' woman in your eyes and then later feel attracted to that person later through deep and meaningful conversation. At least that's how it comes across. You would avoid that person on looks alone before it even got anywhere. Nothing like superficiality at its finest. Strange that the beauty and the beast concept is just idealistic to you. The message to me is that it's one's heart, rather than one's appearance that matters most. It's also striking that you couldn't romance a cat like person in a game like Skyrim which you've mentioned in the past and yet the TV show with Linda Hamilton has something very similar. She's romancing a cat like man. And during that time when the show was on, it seemed a lot of women were infatuated with Vincent on the show. Your view of 'Beauty and the Beast' and how you couldn't connect with an unattractive women most likely viewing her as the beast and you as the beauty makes me wonder if that unattractive woman actually sees you as the beast. As you've said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You see what you want to see and you see yourself as 'beautiful' when in fact you could very well be the beast to everyone else. I'm confused, are you asking me what I find attractive in RL or what I find "attractive" in RPG? You have been asking me some unusual questions, things like "can you Romance a semi-humanoid creature", "beauty is not what you see", "what is the definition of attraction" ....and then it occurred to me what you really asking. You want to know if Obsidian will allow you to Romance.... a sheep And unfortunately the answer to that is an unequivocal no !!! I know in parts of Australia this is acceptable social behaviour but for most of the rest of the world its just not considered normal so we won't be seeing that in PoE. But good trying to generate discussion around potential Romance options

I've never brought up multi-tentacled aliens Bruce. The non-humans including aliens I have brought up have been humanoid. You know arms, legs, torso, head, etc. No tentacles. So your realism of romantic expectations are to have beautiful sexy females that you're attracted to. Anything you deem unattractive you'll avoid, because you know, 'realism'. LOL. Oh god. that's hilarious. I'm just wondering what you do consider 'unattractive'. Is it more than just what she looks like? eg. Do you see a female that's stunning but in a wheel chair 'unattractive' and therefore avoid the notion of going out with her? Lets not confuse RL with Romance in a game, we are talking about a fantasy RPG here. So your question around someone in a wheelchair is inappropriate and irrelevant to the discussion I am not saying you need beautiful females or good looking males, I am saying you have to identify with a person to Romance them. And part of the identification is an appeal on the aesthetic level. And your photos of aliens and orcs and then asking if these are suitable Romance candidates is not going to be acceptable because most people don't identify with them? Its not complicated

Attraction can be something else other than sexy physical characteristics. The NPC may not be physically attractive to you at first, but over time you develop an attraction for them. This often happens in real life. Who would have though? And No, I'm neither surprised nor disappointed that developers are pandering to players fantasies. But nice to try make out that I was when I wasn't. I'm merely stating the obvious that developers do create unrealistic NPCs with anthropomorphising and sexualising those non-human NPCs to appeal to gamers to romance them. That's the unrealistic part that you think is realistic and based on realism. You are absolutely correct that attraction can grow in time but that applies to attraction amongst humans. But when we are having a hypothetical discussion around whether the main character would develop Romance with a multi-tentacle alien I find it hard to believe under any circumstances The concept of Beauty and the Beast is a sweet story but its idealistic and not relevant to modern Romance implementations. So once again I am dwelling in the world of realism with my Romance expectations and I find your ideas fanciful at best?

Yes they do. Developers do anthropomorphise and sexualise non-human NPCs for romance options. Otherwise players and promancers like Bruce wouldn't romance them if they were ugly. They have to be attractive for players to romance them, hence anthropomorphise and sexualise non-human npcs. You're right in that The existence of humanoid characters, does not shatter realism if developers don't anthropomorphise and sexualise those NPCs. What shatters realism is always having those attractive non-human npcs because the developers are pandering to the players. And I'm not painting everything red. If you bothered to read my posts, I said have a cross section of those races from butt ugly to attractive. It's the same with humans. You should also have attractive and non-attractive humans. Same with non-humans. Having entire non-human race in games anthropomorphised and sexualised seems far from reality as you can get. They say "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" But we also need to be realistic, a Romance experience is also about the fact that for most promancers you have to identify with the person you are Romancing. Part of identifying is being "attracted" to your potential Romance partner. So those photos you posted of the orc's are the same as the photo's of the aliens, they are just not attractive. And I would be surprised that any promancer would consider them a prospective Romance partner? That's what you seem to be missing, you keep being surprised or disappointed that the Dev's are pandering to players around NPC aesthetics. My point is its not pandering as part of the foundation of Romance is attraction, so in fact the Devs are doing the prudent thing around game design in this respect. We shouldn't be criticising them but acknowledging this as it makes perfect sense?

Yes. Also of course you can get lost. I was totally lost so I went with level 11 to hunters Edge and had a hart time there. After Silvreglen I did not know where to go so I went exploring XD But I think you guys are misunderstanding Monte, he doesn't mean lost in the literal and negative sense. IMO he is making a metaphorical point around getting "lost" and its more about exploring and seeing exciting things outside the main quest, its a positive experience

Oh so romance is all about looks eh? Ugly aliens do not deserve love? THIS JUST PROVES THE SHALLOWNESS OF THE PROMANCERS. I may not be totally serious there.

I think it depends on what your definition of immersion is, for me MMO do offer an immersive experience. And I'm not intentionally being argumentative, I truly believe that

False. What you claim is a fallacy. No on is forcing Israel to bomb houses. To claim tis' the ONLY outcome and that someone else is responsible for you pulling the trigger is nothing more than guilt projection. "You made me do it" is the worst argument when it's clear that you didn't really have to do it. Are you honestly claiming that bombing the area the rocket came from the the ONLY reasonable response one can take? Really? By using THAT logic Isreal FORCED those people to shoot the rockets. Wanna go further down the guilt chain? Also, palestinans are not Hamas. I agree with you in the sense the bombings are not the right strategy. They should have sent in ground troops, more difficult for them but ultimately the right way to minimize casualties

That sounds really fun and is something I don't think I have experienced in ages, the idea of being "lost off the main story" and not really even caring that much

I was also talking about crpgs in general and the same principal applies to PoE. Another race in PoE would be alien to you. We can only guess at the biological nature of the races in Eora. Perhaps Josh can enlighten us with his world building and inform the community if a Human and Orlan have the capacity to mate. Perhaps the Orlans have a different physiology underneath their clothes and humans can't have sex with them. If you're playing a human and you have an Orlan in your party, that Orlan would probably be alien to you in terms of sexual intercourse, if it is even possible. And the Orlan probably wouldn't want a human trying to have sex with them. Romanceable NPCs are usually anthropomorphised and sexualised for the player even if the NPC isn't human. This is very common in crpgs. They always have 'human features' to try and make the player feel attracted to that NPC. That's not realism. If you were to try and make a game more 'realistic', you wouldn't always have the most attractive types of races in your party. That's just pandering to the player. You should have a cross section of those races from butt ugly to attractive. In D&D terms, the picture should reflect the Charisma of the NPC and their interactions in the game world, including the interactions between party members. I'd like to see NPCs reflect a cross section of their races and not the idealised and attractive. You would have a deep friendship with your companions, you would care for them and they would for you. But romancing wouldn't come up. But the friendship is there. Deep and meaningful. There's even TV shows and movies that have this theme with the human and some other race working together. Of course friendship should always exist amongst the party. But you and I have had this debate before where we agreed on what would be acceptable Romance options based on the physiology of a potential Romance partner and I explained the Romance interest is normally based on humanoid creature. So no centaurs, broodmothers, beholders or similar creatures as they aren't humanoid so the intimacy part of Romance would be illogical. But dwarfs, elves, orcs, drow, fairies these are acceptable Romance options Also the main reason I don't like those aliens is that they are ugly, that's the reality. I have nothing against aliens as we know from the ME games where there are loads of attractive aliens. So this is more a questions of aesthetics when it comes to humanoid aliens and can you Romance them