BruceVC

No Bennie, you have made an attempt to understand the ME and as usual I respect that but this time I am going to correct you because I dont want you thinking that Islam isnt the problem Of course it is, that is exactly the problem because the Islamic world is basically going through a crisis of identity ...they need to recognize and address extremism within there communities. There is no other solution Also the Arab Spring was caused exactly because of the lack of allocation of resources due to this view that families and dictators had been ruling most of the countries in a form of divine right and they refused to be inclusive The entire ME is one cauldron of historical resentment and outdated ideologies. They have no respect for human rights and in most countries its the death penalty for homosexuality Its much easier for you to tell me what exactly is positive at the moment in the ME?

You mean same country that Trump chose to be his first country to align towards? It is OK for USA to reach agreements with Russia but not for Iran? Well that is not what happened, the sanctions against Russia havent been dropped so what agreements do you mean?

Iran does not have any "ISIS groups". Right, like slavery for instance... Yes I understand Iran is incongruous But lets be fair, until the actual Nuclear negotiations were done you had extreme hostility from the Conservative Iranians ..,..burning US flags and being very belligerent. And of course Iran did happily send soldiers into Iraq and they did kill many US soldiers during that conflict. Remember http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1582898/QandA-Who-is-Moqtada-al-Sadr.html And also what was the first country Iran aligned to after the sanctions were dropped ? http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Opinion/2016/08/19/What-Russias-new-closeness-with-Iran-means/5491471617181/ But I understand you also have moderate people in Iran who are glad the agreement was reached, I have been to Iran. We have investments like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTN_Irancell Also I know the history of your culture and the Persian ancestry

We have been bombing basically every country between Egypt, Turkey and Iran for the better part of 15 years now, along with much of the north coast of Africa.. and then we get surprised when people want to escape the lawless hellholes we helped create. It's sobering to see just how irresponsible the West really is, the 20th century should have been lesson enough. I don't support or particularly like Russia's approach, but at least they seem to be working towards an end, rather than just 'bombing for the lulz' which most of the American led coalition (us included) have done for decades. If you create a mess, you're damn well responsible for cleaning it up... At least in the house I grew up in. Ros I appreciate your view, lets continue this debate because you raise a common view yet its not accurate or fair I have been involved in the ME since 2001, I have studied and researched the various movements and ideologies and the rise of ISIS and AQ I am not saying this means you must believe me, it just means I am very comfortable with the facts around this debate Please read this link as its a summary of why we have the real instability in the ME. Libya and Syria were caused by this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring How is the West responsible for this, its not helpful to keep making excuses for valid economic changes that many Muslims wanted

Im agnostic, I see no issue with ensuring better security. The reality is the Middle East and the AU need to take some responsibity for this mess....you cant always expect the West to solve these types of problems

I agree...its irritating, its like they saying " make sure we can enter or we will become mass murderers "

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pm-trudeau-says-canada-welcomes-refugees-052346955.html Its good you guys are finally stepping up ...well done volo I can see Canada converting into a Muslim country, you do realize most Muslims wont like you ?

Hi algoth Sorry I haven't said hello until now What are your concerns, please be very honest Hey Bruce! I don't see what isn't concerning about the way things have gone in the Trump administration of yet. You have the president to the most powerful nation in the world acting as an autocrat with complete disregards for human rights, facts, science, or the very values that his country's based on. His combative, disdainful attitude to everyone else both in and outside the US is only bound to cretive further conflict, not lessen it. Okay, its several things. Where do you live if you dont mind me asking ?

We were just incredibly racist back then. It got a bit better in 1965. Hurlshot I know you have put real effort into understanding the Muslim community in the USA, this wont impact the local Muslim community in the USA. I have always respected that about your religious beliefs. If I was a Christian I would follow your example...look at this in SA, how do we deal with this? This pastor spews hate and then for 2 days some black Christians then feel they need to phone in on radio stations and basically quote the bible and how homosexuality is a sin....its against our constitution but how do we say this? http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/grace-bible-church-trends-after-homophobic-comments-20170122

Hi algoth Sorry I haven't said hello until now What are your concerns, please be very honest

Because they are allies of USA and were just forward thinkers in policies that USA will establish? dont get cheeky young man, you know how much you will enjoy a good spanking But Elerond the double standards needs to stop, no Sunni country in the ME has taken any refugees and even the Syrians that flee Syria to there neighbours dont get accepted as citizens unless they can pay which most cant ....so they live in these terrible and inhuman refugee camps, they cant leave but they are safe at least https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/05/world/middleeast/zaatari-refugee-camp-in-jordan-evolves-as-a-do-it-yourself-city.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/lebanon-camps-syria-refugees-slam-trump-bar-134027325.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/27/us/politics/trump-syrian-refugees.html All these countries have ISIS groups, so its a valid preventative measure, are you worried this making the USA look bad ? I support the USA in basically everything because it represents the foundation of Western ideology, if this was really a bad idea I would tell you If I'm understanding your post correctly, I don't think mooks are afraid that the general US citizen is armed. They mostly plan on dying anyway. And I don't think we've got some secret method for intercepting plots. The "war on terror" has been going on for decades so it seem like someone would have bloodied our noses again by now. What could it be? Since the Bush administration and the advancements around NSA technology like Prism and the alliances with ME countries like Saudi the USA has prevented many attacks on the USA. You just dont know about them But no one can really stop homegrown or lone wolf attacks like the Boston marathon bombing

These things happen, Im sure he will be let in. Somalia hasn't had a functional government for 25 years !!! The AU if it had political will and interest could have defeated Al-Shaab by now.....but no so the AU just lets Somalia stay broken and take no responsibility I saw an interview where the CNN team now were interviewing Trump and seemed to question his opinion where he said " Muslims hate us " ....the CNN team didnt believe it https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/03/09/trump-i-think-islam-hates-us/?utm_term=.cc957b577be8 But it is true in many cases, as I was saying in SA the Muslism community are blaming the USA for 9/11 and ignoring the global reality of Islamic extremism. Its gets irritating when I travel to the ME and have to be subjected to anti-USA sentiment and how the USA is to blame for everything. This is basically a verbal attack on the West so honestly why do all these Muslims want to immigrate to the West? Why dont the Sunni Muslim countries accept some of them?

Gfted1 trust me when I tell you have no reason to feel the USA is being unfair, none of these countries are able to vet anyone who gets on planes and wants to fly anywhere. This alone and the fact we know all these countries export extremism should be more than enough reason to ban them Yes people seem shocked but again if we could do the same in Africa we would ....read these links to see what they have done http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/22/world/meast/kenya-mall-al-shabaab-analysis/index.html https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-27/al-shabaab-attacks-kenya-army-base-in-somalia-claims-51-killed http://www.france24.com/en/20161025-kenya-somalia-shabaab-attacks https://www.yahoo.com/news/al-shabaab-attacks-kenya-hotel-175506615.html http://allafrica.com/stories/201701270456.html

That's the sort of argument that wears away at any and all civil liberties in regards to privacy. It's why the public has gone from "you can't search me" to "Why don't you let them search you if you've nothing to hide." At a certain point the "edge cases" become the majority and soon the migrations that made America "great" in the first place will be dead because only England, Germany, and Japan can travel to the US, everyone else is a magical danger to us. Guys the reality is 30 % of Latinos voted for Trump, he claimed he would build the wall and make Mexico pay for it, I always said Mexico would never pay But now the USA has to pay for it, anyway I doubt it will make a difference as obviously the drugs will still flow but illegal immigration will be reduced. In SA we have a major issue with millions of people from other economically broken African illegally entering SA as we have NO control of our borders, its created expected but unfair criticism towards these other black people who are called " foreigners " . My loyalty is to SA and our government is unable or incapable of dealing with this problem but the truth is we wish we could build a wall as this unsustainable for us So I am not being a hypocrite now but I can understand the Trump wall And those 6 Muslim countries being banned are very problematic and hotbeds for extremism, you guys in the USA are actually lucky We have major issues with Al-Shabaab in Somalia killing people and killing any person who is not Sunni Muslim http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-15336689 These extremists are utterly brutal and linked to ISIS, the same groups exist in all those other countries. Its amazing how the Muslim community SA refuse to exist 9/11 happened ....anyway you guys in the USA ironically should be happy It would only be discrimination if all Muslim countries were banned

They're also close US allies, who we can't afford to quarrel with. So only fatal attacks count? There were just recently a couple of attacks by Somalis. Yes, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Egypt, and Turkey are all strategic allies to the West and the USA . I am not sure why people see this as contradiction ? I am more than happy to explain to anyone interested why these countries matter All the countries banned have no way to ensure vetting of passengers ...why wouldn't you ban them ?

Gromnir I wanted to ask you some very important questions, with your understanding of the US Constitution and general life experience your opinion is very relevant The Trump presidency has created something unique in the history of the USA so no one has all the answers or can give there normal predictions. Im very glad he has backtracked on much of the rhetotric so at least thats a small consolation For the moment I just have one, the way people like Kellyanne Conway and Spicer seem fine to literally use " alternative facts " or simply be more concerned with spin is unprecedented for me ....I have only been following US politics since 2000 but I have never seen this type of approach to political debate Does this concern you? How can this be sustainable

Its no surprise at all, as I keep explaining to you guys Saudi Arabia is an ally to the USA in the war on terror You can continue to believe a false narrative around this but remember you are intentionally ignoring the facts

Elerond I watched an interview with someone from the Trump camp about this and what he said actually made sense Trump is prohibiting Muslims coming from countries that cannot guarantee or vet the people who get on planes, these countries include Iran, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen and Sudan All these countries are either war zones, enemies of the USA or hotbeds of Islamic extremism....do you blame Trump for blocking them? I would think this is appropriate considering the fact the USA is a target of terrorist attacks ? http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/27/politics/trump-plans-to-sign-executive-action-on-refugees-extreme-vetting/ Yes I blame him. USA don't take non-vetted refugees, so everybody now denied are people that US officials though to be safe to take in, many such that have helped them in past. Also USA actions in past are big part why Iraq, Libya and Syria have become hotbeds of Islamic extremist and why people are fleeing from them now. Of course stopping and killing Saddam Hussein, Muammar Gaddafi and opposing Bashar al-Assad can be justified and even seen as necessary actions, but they were also actions the destabilized those countries and drive them in uncontrollable civil wars and give room for extremist to get foot hold in them. Also where you think refugees mainly come if not from war zones? Also Iraq's current government is ally of USA. This is one of the few topics you and I dont agree on, since we have had this debate before all I ask is you consider what I am going to say below Even though I dont agree lets say you right about Iraq and thats all the USA fault The initial civil wars in both Libya and Syria were caused by the Arab Spring, everything else came after that and both Gaddafi and Assad had options to share resources and agree to what the protestors were asking for Both of them refused to make any concessions and civil wars started. How is that the fault of the USA? In Libya USA gave weapons to those who opposed Gaddafi and during rebellion they gave air support for rebel forces. Meaning that USA take active part in dethroning Gaddafi and Clinton was quite gleeful when their efforts ended successfully. In Syria USA has given military schooling and weapons to rebels that oppose Assad and some of those weapons even ended in hands of ISIS terrorists. Meaning that USA had active part in Syria's civil war. So just to be clear, you are going to ignore the reasons why these civil wars started which had nothing to do with the USA but still blame the USA for supplying arms and weapons?

Elerond I watched an interview with someone from the Trump camp about this and what he said actually made sense Trump is prohibiting Muslims coming from countries that cannot guarantee or vet the people who get on planes, these countries include Iran, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen and Sudan All these countries are either war zones, enemies of the USA or hotbeds of Islamic extremism....do you blame Trump for blocking them? I would think this is appropriate considering the fact the USA is a target of terrorist attacks ? http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/27/politics/trump-plans-to-sign-executive-action-on-refugees-extreme-vetting/ Yes I blame him. USA don't take non-vetted refugees, so everybody now denied are people that US officials though to be safe to take in, many such that have helped them in past. Also USA actions in past are big part why Iraq, Libya and Syria have become hotbeds of Islamic extremist and why people are fleeing from them now. Of course stopping and killing Saddam Hussein, Muammar Gaddafi and opposing Bashar al-Assad can be justified and even seen as necessary actions, but they were also actions the destabilized those countries and drive them in uncontrollable civil wars and give room for extremist to get foot hold in them. Also where you think refugees mainly come if not from war zones? Also Iraq's current government is ally of USA. This is one of the few topics you and I dont agree on, since we have had this debate before all I ask is you consider what I am going to say below Even though I dont agree lets say you right about Iraq and thats all the USA fault The initial civil wars in both Libya and Syria were caused by the Arab Spring, everything else came after that and both Gaddafi and Assad had options to share resources and agree to what the protestors were asking for Both of them refused to make any concessions and civil wars started. How is that the fault of the USA?

Elerond I watched an interview with someone from the Trump camp about this and what he said actually made sense Trump is prohibiting Muslims coming from countries that cannot guarantee or vet the people who get on planes, these countries include Iran, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen and Sudan All these countries are either war zones, enemies of the USA or hotbeds of Islamic extremism....do you blame Trump for blocking them? I would think this is appropriate considering the fact the USA is a target of terrorist attacks ? http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/27/politics/trump-plans-to-sign-executive-action-on-refugees-extreme-vetting/

I have been following this on various mediums, I am not trying to undermine the point but its important to understand the context around what Trump said In an interview it all started where he said something like " ISIS is the most brutal group the world has ever seen. They behead and crucify christians and kill and rape indiscriminately...so if you ask me is waterboarding acceptable I say yes ".....I agree with Trump on this, why are we concerned about extending a group like ISIS any humanity or civil rights ? As usual Trump differs to experts, he is leaving this up to Mattis who is opposed to torture http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-torture-works-theresa-may-washington-white-house-a7550316.html

You really shouldnt watch that show, its racist and sexist ...it will rot your brain and maybe you could become reticent and cynical

volo you sound very bitter about California, its a similar temperament to when you hear those stories about some young starry eyed Canadian women leaves Canada with dreams of becoming an actor in Hollywood....but once arriving in Hollywood her dreams are dashed as she cannot find work and ends up working in the Porn industry but pretending to her friends and family in Canada she has a real acting job, you know that can make a person bitter ....did that happen to you ? Be honest ...no judgement here

I'm pretty sure Google, Apple, all the movies studios, HP, Tesla, etc. are not owned by the US in any way. That would kind of violate the entire model of capitalism. And considering a lot of these tech companies make their stuff in China, an independent California would probably have no trouble negotiating trade deals. Plus the port of LA is the largest trade port in terms of dollars in the world. Basically it would be a major loss for the US, but it doesn't really matter because it isn't going to happen. Anyone who wants it is delusional and is too caught up in political rhetoric to recognize basic economics. California loves the idea though, like a scorned wife that keep saying that she'll leave. Even if they are a big producer without a market they can't make profits and the US is a large consumer market. I would argue states like Texas play the old " I want to secede from the USA card " more regularly than Cali ? The reason why Texas talks so much about it is because they are actually legally allowed to secede from the US. As part of their deal of surrender during the Civil War they have the right to do exactly just that whenever they feel like it. That cant be true? Do you have links so I read it myself ....Im not being rude I just find that incongruous