BruceVC

Gromnir that is completely unhelpful to the reality all our societies face that have been ravaged by the virus and are busy hubs for both international and local travel and flights . So this includes countries like the UK, USA , EU and SA " Do you think people have a right to spread the virus " has to be only Constitutional or legal question that matters. Quarantine measures are a stopgap, a temporary measure. This has got nothing to do with people and children returning to work and school and the company or school expecting you to vaccinated. This is about the reality of virus spread and new variants. Quarantining people is just one of the strategy's until you get vaccinated

I was thinking about the reality of the virus and its spread and how different governments are trying to address the spread. In SA we are debating where we make vaccines mandatory because of the nature of virus mutations and variants So the question that your normal human rights lawyers like to ask cannot be " do you have a human right or Constitution right to not take the virus " that was the old question before the reality of how virus variants can still make people that take vaccines sick and even die The only question that matters and human rights lawyers should learn to argue is " do you have a human right or Constitutional right to spread the virus " @GromnirI am expecting people like Gromnir to agree that you dont have the right to spread the virus

Good points but I meant to add to the phycological reasons we witnessed the overall attitude of people towards the virus and you cannot ignore the automatic "worship " of Trump and it was something I have never really seen before. Not so quickly, for example Trump wins the election and you can see his base loves him which I thought was nice as it was unusual for me to see such emotion in white people ....we were raised to not openly express yourself like that and for this I agree. Its not about being emotionally devoid but you need to maintain decorum and somethings you never do in front of people like openly saying " I only now believe what Trump says, he knows everything " and they can justify anything Trump did so suddenly Trump became a true Christian and for some " God appointed him ( I promise a women in SA phoned in on the local and said this ) And this occurred in the 4 years of his presidency and I really didnt enjoy seeing people abandon their ability to be objective and not just echo one view. And I particularly found it unpalatable when I saw Christians ignoring their sense of what defines a Christian value system and saying Trump is some kind of spiritual figure Of course people can like and love Trump but to start suggesting his presidency is divine will is egregious and I will never accept that. Its hard to think of any single person who demonstrated more un-Christian values than Trump and yet people ignored these so its another interesting development And then I am very interested in the reasons groups of his base followed him because he represented a world where "white people werent blamed for everything and it was okay to be white " .....strange they needed Trump to tell them that? Sometimes I would notice some of Trumps connections to " white people " and I supported it but it was based on views I already had so Trump just articulated it. So I do understand some of his appeal And again in SA I heard on 3 occasions white men phoning in a talk shows and repeating the false narrative of " Trump won the election " . So unfortunately you can see what this tells us about Trumps influence in some better world .....its cannot ever be a better world if you cannot accept a legitimate election and we cannot justify this Somethings are sacrosanct and he could have just walked away with huge adulation and much praise but no he decided to undermine his entire legacy

What do you do for a living if you dont mind me asking, good insights I am glad you also see its something that is not normal but I cant find a single form of psychoses ....I am always interested in these types of studies because I wonder how they can manifest in other countries and with the right conditions its possible. Americans are humans and its just the environment and conditions that are different? I believe its a combination of factors but its going to difficult to align correctly influence but I want to study it more ....do you think its important to accept the Trump presidency as one of the factors. You and I could be onto something huge so its important to include things that are similar but in fact are our views and emotions But I think the Trump presidency is a part of it ...maybe not one the causes ?

You could be right and I hope you right because its something that you dont often see and I wouldnt want to see that in SA Something else I remember, in Florida the major of Miami finally decided to make mask wearing mandatory. This should have been done 1-2 months ago and it always seemed so tragic because their already were thousands of dead and sick The major arranged a town hall meeting to let people know and to get questions.

This is not about you being a moderator and its not about you breaking any rules, sorry if I created that impression. I dont think I have ever been concerned with anyone who has been possibly dismissive because they broke the rules because I believe you dont need to enforce rules to discuss how we can engage...and to be honest I feel their isnt a need to really enforce rules because people can discuss what the issue. It seems like I misunderstood your point and it wasnt a big issue because you also made a point about the reason he was jailed and that was because he broke the court ruling so he was jailed for a valid reason and not what I assumed But now my concern was no longer valid and the entire post was unnecessary And I dislike spending time on any SJ story that is not accurate or the truth because then you are not only wasting RL time but you got fooled into thinking the story mattered So can you see why your post was incongruous, I thought you were dismissing it but you had actually read the link better than I had and you provided the actual reason he was jailed Oh I dont think it can be considered a cancel culture story but seemed to be about laws being enforced which punished a father unreasonably....but that was wrong So thanks for pointing out what it was really about

I just want to say so that their is no misunderstanding. I do support BLM in its normal objectives and issues but not the reasons the protests below. Gromnir you are conflating a few points I have made and also you are making some understandable generalizations around my view on BLM and Antifa but I am glad we are having this debate because I want to clarify and confirm a few things I dont consider either BLM or Antifa as extremist groups. I never label groups like this in the wrong way because I have had real interaction with extremist groups in the place like the ME and its important to understand and define all types of groups in the right way. BLM is a SJ movement and Antifa I have no interest in calling them anything but what they are ...they a psedo-left wing violent group who must be arrested when they get in involved in the violence they same. They must be treated in the same as violence from the right but they not extremist because their goals are nebulous and defined as the likes of any more extremists groups like ISIS or White Supremacy We must separate our views of Putin and Barr and the reality of who he is and what he believes to ensure Russia is not weakened by Western ideology and attempts to undermine his leadership. Putin is an effective leader for what Russia believes in and how they practice their own foreign policy and global interests but he is more than capable using numerous state resources to kill or arrest anyone who he feels is a threat to stability in Russia Barr and Trump are not in same level when it come suppression of freedom, no you mustn't think that. Trump is a dilettante and Barr believes in enforcing laws that directly led to events in Portland . And yes Portland Protests was one of the BLM protests that had a strange agenda and it seemed that many of the Protestors were trying to provoke a response from the federal government. But I dont have other opinions of Barr and his rulings so I can only comment on the Portland incident as I mentioned. Also I dont consider Barr an extension of the Trump ideologues who had no understanding of the law or constitution. Barr responded to his actions in that Hearing and he faced some direct and serious questions but he responded in a very convincing way. But end of the day if you feel he acted unconstitutionally in Portland and abused his power with deploying federal courts then yes why hasnt he been charged? @rjshae If you dont mind I really need your opinion on something that I want to raise with Gromnir and its something I only thought of now and not when we had this debate Both Portland and Seattle are liberal cities that are not considered racist at all and yet we had BLM protests that in Seattle led to occupation of the police station. But why would you have a protest about police racism in a city where the police are not.....this literally occurred to me now. Because if that was true how did someone like you reflect on it because I would have thought you would occupy a police station where the issue had similar? But last time you explained it had a slight disruption but it was supported and the police allowed the occupation because they didnt want a violent confrontation with the protestors which I do understand and it is Seattle after all. Did anyone in Seattle seem angered by the fact a police station had been occupied and now that would mean if suddenly their a violent bank robbery the police response may be less effective ? And if I had to guess I doubt people in Seattle would see it like that because that type of crime is not common but I found link this seems to suggest the overall outcome wasnt something that people seemed happy about https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackbrewster/2020/06/10/seattle-protesters-take-over-city-hall-demand-mayors-resignation/?sh=52fd83ba3caf

Wormien posted this excellent update already but its always good to know people are contributing updates when you find them

Yes its an okay apology, I notice you didnt apologize about calling my post about liberal overreach " garbage cancel culture " and I hate it when people think I would make a post because of such meaningless topic that I dont believe in. I hate being called a Troll because that is the ultimate insult because that would mean all this time I have spent on a forum its not what I believe and I want to upset people...that is the definition of troll, you not to be taken seriously And I dont believe in cancel culture because its a reaction to something and not a real reason. I will stop supporting any franchise if their is valid reason but I cant think of one real example now? So my posts may be incorrect or I may be misunderstanding context but I dont make posts because of reason like cancel culture But I still like your comments when you comment without the unnecessary invective because you have good insights. I may not always agree but you do your research and its good to understand views that allow you to confirm or change your point

I read most of your link and it is about a very complex and nuanced question that I assumed most Americans would want to understand, and that question is basically " how did the worlds most well resourced country failed to address its second wave " and unfortunately allowed the rest of us observing to see what doctors warned were the worst responses a country could follow and that these outcomes with a pandemic of this nature would led to the virus spreading exponentially and all the carnage that meant follow. I followed this story and events and then did additional research and the entire story of the " mask denialists and mask hesitancy" is absolutely linked to different reasons in the USA and to be honest some of these reasons are unique to the USA.....that is very unusual but it cannot be ignored. You are the first American forum member who has expressed an interest is this question and I am glad because I can now comment and get your opinion I would have to assume the reasons why most Americans members have not seemed to want to understand how the US could fail in such a predictable way is maybe because the constant political theater of the Trump presidency and constant political chaos created fatigue and the virus spread or failures became more about bipartisan support than actual reality of the stopping the pandemic Anyway so the question of mask denialism was about several factors and some were definitely psychological, we wouldnt need this detailed study to realize that but for me I cant understand the real psychological foundation of some of the reasons and that was the first I have seen any citizens of a first world country allow conspiracy theories and real misinformation to decide their actions in RL over something as simple as wearing a mask to stop molecules These were the general reasons your standard lack of acceptance of a mask as meaningful way of stopping the way the virus does spread, this would be people who think the virus spreads by other ways by getting the flu people claiming it against their rights as citizens....always that use to frustrate because surly the constitution allows clauses to save life's by mandating masks or similar things people with no training or understanding of the human body or medicine claiming the masks can actually kill people with trapping of oxygen. They were not embarrassed to openly thinking it was a "deep state " plan People saying things like " if Trump doesnt wear a mask, neither will I " And then of course truly pointless justifications like " masks are parts of a political ploy to push a liberal agenda " And Rjshae here is something else that confuses me, have you ever seen in the world of conspiracy theories and those that believe them so many people that studiously make a decision like " you mustnt wear a mask because the Deep State will be controlling you " ....people dont normally act on the deep stare, its like the illuminati And to make things more interesting , someone might assume these were all decisions made by Republican or Trump supporters and not Democratic states so its not a problem the left needs to understand. But during the heart of the 2 wave every single BLM protest has large numbers of protestors, both white and black, not wearing masks and arms around each other...and the marches had thousands of young people. And not is also unacceptable So I would like to understand one day the psychological reasons for this because it will be good to know how to avoid it and its not something that should dismiss as Americans because it doesnt make sense compared to some of the normal hyperbole you see within the USA ?

It is ironic that GD raised a valid point about this particular date and then you responded with some real lived experience around your connection to it I was watching Biden signing this into law and their were several elderly and attentive African Americans who had a real sense of happiness about why it was significant and a very old lady had this sincere and emotional quick chat to Biden about its importance. I couldn't hear what she was saying but it clearly was something that mattered and had a real historical significance And then a lady came on who had ancestors who have lived in TX and explained to CNN what it meant to them so its similar to your grandmothers. But she also said at the end that is should be remembered as the day all Americans can remember it as the day slavery ended ....obviously people from TX know the exact details Because I do think all public holidays should matter and having to remember how slavery use to be real but only existed because it contributed towards unnecessary economic growth in the South matters because its something that was diabolical and cruel and it will be nice to have a barbeque and the day off and realize how much better things are ( if I was American that is how I would see it ) I can possibly see some people on the right dismissing it because they may think its about " blaming white people for all inequality in minority communities due to slavery " but that is not why the day should be remembered and this holiday has no insidious intention For most Americans outside TX it should be simple, you are just recognizing that slavery was once part of the US and now it is over. Its a good news holiday that matters to people directly from TX but its about all Americans and shows how far the US has come

This post is true in my experience in some ways around the natural growth that all young go on about what is truly right or wrong but in SA its more older people who support authority and younger people who question some things Also this view is rejected in SA by some young people and activists who mean well and say things like " we must have more young people in government and deciding on policy because our currents laws are made by old people who dont understand the youth " These groups dismiss the importance of institutional and life experience and conflate issues around corruption and failure of governance with the issue of older people being in positions of power and government But for me one of the most important considerations to help any young person reach their full potential is mentorship and guidance from older more experienced people and those same older people correcting any young peoples mistakes in a way that is constructive without being dismissive

I always appreciate people pointing out where I may be wrong about something or misunderstanding an event, I only realized the value of what I term " the benefit of correcting an incorrect view " in a debate in RL or any forum about 5-6 years ago and sometimes its still hard to admit I am wrong but I have come a long way But any relevant teaching moment should be based on a basic understanding that you may be wrong about the actual facts about something or in this case my concern about a topic and not concerned about another And a teaching moment cant be about a misunderstanding of what point you think a person may be making and sometimes I joke about topics or dont explain things properly which is my fault and I always enjoy a debate to clarify things if necessary. And I would like to have several debates about some of the outcomes of BLM but if no American members want to have to these debates I dont feel the need to raise them because the " BLM global developments " are not the same in other countries, . But I am not opposed to BLM principles or consider them a threat to the stability of the USA or other countries. Its a form of a SJ movement and I generally support SJ movements when they make sense. I consider the attack on the Capitol much worse and more concerning than the totality of BLM protests and violence So when you say I am not concerned with how the "US is example potential antigovernmental suppression" I am not exactly sure what you mean? Are you referring to the Portland protests and protestors being arrested by Federal agents and how I supported Barr on this ? Or do you mean other examples And I very happy to discuss numerous differences between the erosion or differences in freedom in a country like Russia and what has been happening in the USA but I am not sure if you mean that ?

Why did you hate sunglasses? You swedes are really weird

Your response is very interesting and you have explained it very well so its not too legally technical. So if I understand what you saying is that states like Mississippi pass laws that prohibit abortion knowing they will eventually end up after years in SCOTUS and depending on the elected judges at the time this could be rules as a permanent law going forward? If that is correct does that mean any other state can automatically implement the same law and it cannot be challenged or can it be challenged in a different way and then end up in SCOTUS ? And finally in Mississippi how can the people of that state challenge that law again and does that mean for years while we wait for SCOTUS this type of unreasonable law, IMO, will be enforced and practiced within Mississippi and you cant do anything about it ?

GD I get concerned when you raise these types of issues I think we should all be very concerned when any Democracy starts saying we are " going to prosecute anti-government ideology " What exactly does that mean and who decides what is "anti government ". Seriously, imagine some worse case scenarios around this like " you must bend the knee in reverence to BLM or you are deemed racist and this government doesnt tolerate racists " or " everyone in the South must admit being involved in the historical slave trade and pay reparations to government " ( what was that funny website you sometimes quote that made those jokes about a Muppet TV character )

Great post Wormie and you raise some very interesting points, I enjoy posts when you go into details because you often raise, I am sure unintentionally, points that I can agree with, sometimes not agree with but understand or points that I dont understand yet I am compelled to get clarity because its interesting. Often I will read someone's post on this forum and others and I may not understand something and I dont feel the need to clarify which is normal because we should only spend time doing things like posting comments and engaging in debates if we want to and have something to add When you say you like fiction but dont care about the outcome in a RPG that is 100 % opposite to me so I want to understand what you mean. So any RPG for me is hugely, and I mean as much as 30-38%, about the narrative which in a RPG is about choices and choices influence the journey which leads to the outcome and the entire party interaction and growth ....but without the outcome I dont see the point of the journey ? So what is the fiction outside of what any RPG normally has , so things like choices that lead to quests and outcomes. Its all about the outcomes surly...how can it not be ?

Thanks for the detailed response, I appreciate the detail as I am binary thinker so details matter so I can understand the concern or point And of course your view is subjective about BG3 as all our opinions are. For example I absolutely loved BG2: ToB, it still is my favorite game and party based RPG of all time but I recently, 6 months ago, played D:OS2 and it was excellent....one of my top 5 games. This was the first Larian game I had ever played so well done to your country for producing such a gem So even though I respect and understand your general criticism about BG3 I dont see this an issue because you raise the most relevant point about BG3 which is basically will it adhere to the core design and mechanic of previous BG games. So it would be interesting to get everyone who has played the BG series to comment on what they loved about it. I will go first, what was it about BG2 that I enjoyed so much The narrative was compelling and I was constantly surprised and excited around how it unfolded The usage of the AD&D ruleset matters to me because I use to play the tabletop RPG so things like spells and classes and understanding combat strategy matter The lore and setting of the Forgotten Realms is my favorite setting The monsters and places to explore matter My party and interaction matter and things like optional Romance arcs are important to me Now all these things existed in D:OS2 but obviously in the context of that game world so I cant see why Larian cant do the same thing for BG3 in the Forgotten Realms using the D&D ruleset ? So going back to my question, what was it that you loved about BG and once that is clear why cant Larian implement it in BG 3? I look forward to members responses

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/09/opinion/abortion-mississippi-supreme-court.html Gromnir how does the relationship or legal precedent work in the US where Federal government allows things like abortion or gay marriage but individual states pass their own laws banning it ? I understand states can pass their own laws on most developments but what is the point of a Federal law like abortion being Federal but states ban it , what recourse do you have from a Federal level to overturn this type of state intervention if any? Or am I misunderstanding Federal laws and state laws synergy ?

That is even more impressive, I am not a developer but I work with developers sometimes at customers and vendors like Microsoft and Veritas Changelogs are normally mandatory especially in listed companies in the financial sector because of governance and internal regulations So the fact that the ladies are using CL but they dont have to is kudos to them. I have a question, why doesnt your company enforce CL as a process because how do you track issues when it comes to debugging or understanding historical issues ?

You make some good points and I agree with some of them For example I personally hold the governors of each state ultimately responsible for the spread of the virus in each state because the Federal government, or the president, doesnt get to decide certain regulations or laws or virus prevention measures within the state. And if you look at the reality of the US second wave their was an initial pattern that started in states like Georgia, Florida, Texas, Alabama and New Mexico where the governors didnt mandate mask wearing or attempt to enforce any real regulations. These governors opened all bars, gyms and restaurants and used a deeply flawed approach that said " we are leaving it up to people to do the right thing " ......leaving it up to mask denialists and deep state acolytes meant many people believed the virus and pandemic wasn't real and that meant they followed no virus prevention measures and that had disastrous consequences for the US I dont hold Trump responsible for that, I hold the governors and individual people who are responsible for their own thoughts and actions But the president of any country sets a tone and does have degrees of influence around this words and how people reflect on them. For example its a fact that many of the Trump base use to say openly " we dont believe anything the media says , even Fox, unless Trump says its true " Trumps views on mask wearing became a political decision for some of his base when it should have always been seen as medical necessity to help prevent the spread of the virus. In other words some US citizens refused to wear masks because they believed it was a liberal\Democratic plot to push a certain agenda So the words and views of Trump created different degrees of confusion and misinformation ....that is where he is responsible but I still hold the governors more responsible But yes the Warp Speed vaccine program was a success and that was creation of the Trump presidency so he should get recognition for that .....but its not enough to negate the damage that was done by the inconsistent virus policy like not being clear on wearing masks

https://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/us-sc-upholds-obamacare-allowing-millions-to-keep-health-insurance-cover-121061800029_1.html Guys here is really unexpected but good news , the US SC has uphold Obamacare for the third time This is good news for those of us worried that a more conservative SC would overturn things like gay marriage or the right for women to choose to have an abortion. I understand these are all separate issues but their was this fear that the Trump SC appointees would push a certain agenda @Gromnir You can unleash your prodigious legal knowledge on this matter but keep it simple so those of us who arent lawyers can understand how significant this is. I am interested in your opinion on this Obamacare ruling and arent you happy?

But Dark even if Trump was right about this and the virus came from a lab he still mishandled the entire pandemic in the USA. He really did and it was the inconsistency with addressing the pandemic that contributed to the death of hundreds of thousands of US citizens. Its not all his fault of course, mask denialists and the " deep state " crowd played their part and Trump shouldnt get blamed for that Lets leave the political rhetoric to one side and ask ourselves a question " what difference does the origin of the virus make to how any country handles the spread of the virus within their borders " .....can you think of one reason that this would make a difference? In other words once the virus gets to your country the only thing that matters, until you get vaccines, is following the science to the best of your ability to try to contain the spread

I remember about 5 years ago I started getting this pain in my right side of my chest under my arm that seemed to be come and go and I assumed to be muscle related and was a gym injury from the rowing machine and ignored it Anyway after 3 days I developed this strange rash and that led to blisters appearing and it was one of the most painful experiences in my life....I literally couldnt sleep properly for 2-3 days and the rash vanished but the pain remained intermittently for about 2 months and eventually went way Do you know what is was? Shingles ( chicken pox ) that someone I had contracted despite getting my vaccine years ago https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/shingles/symptoms-causes/syc-20353054

Just ignore him Rjshae, sarcasm from 2133 is his way of contributing constructively towards many debates Its an insecurity and not worth getting annoyed about. Its a pity because he is a bright and interesting guy when he tries