RPGmasterBoo

"Its mature." - quoted from the thirteen year old running EA's market section

Counterspell. ... No, must... reisist...

To be honest, it's not the laws. It's the people. We really need to deal with this cultural self-loathing bull**** that's so trendy nowadays in the West. When even the French are measured in their chauvinism, you know there's definitely something wrong. Yes. Everyone equates tolerance with shoveling sh!t on ones own head these days. Political correctness is a sort of censorship that outdoes the Nazis at their best. So irritating. Maybe you should've been there when the Nazis were exterminating and justifying the extermination of people they thought were impure - so that you could understand the naive stupidity of your statement. The stupidity of your argument is the failure to realise that the topic is censorship, not concentration camps. Since the Croatian nazis killed almost a million of my people, and set up a novelty even by German standards - concentration camps exclusively for children, here's the wiki for those with the stomach for it > ( Stara gradiska) I could hardy justify them. Switch your brain on before writing ignorant posts.

del

That's the gist of it. VtM:Bloodlines aka Python hell. I loved the game but its terribly flawed, and the fact that it didn't get mass appeal is hardly surprising.

Depends on what sort of history you're writing. If its the corporate history it wouldn't even be mentioned. If you're talking actual innovation its part of the unavoidable infinity engine period of wRPG. Matt Barton on gamasutra did a great piece on it, as he's an RPG nut.

They also finished it before hand and had to sit on it. Imagine if it had come out before Half-Life 2. It was never really finished but slapped together towards the end. the first several years of development were all burned up on Santa Monica hub, the rest was done in several months. And it shows.

Actually Obsidian is just as much guilty of the same syndome. KOTOR II characters we re-imaginings of Torment (as was the entire plot practically) characers and MotB follows the same mold. However I think even though they are all very similar, at the very least they are somewhat refreshing and there is the occasional attempt to defy cliche's. Bioware doesn't even try that and after 4 games serving up lukewarm characters and stories starts to be irritating. Either Greg or Ray once said that there was nothing wrong with the "ancient evil returns" storyline, which is really a subtle way of saying that even they know its all the same. Now polished presentation and fun gameplay can stretch out the same concept for a while, (evidence by the fact that they are still around), but you cant really keep beating the same dead horse forever. I hate to say it but there was, in fact, more innovation in Fallout 3 over Oblivion, than there was in any Bioware game after Baldurs Gate II. Its not a matter of judging, but every clip I've seen of DA that deals with characters screams deja vu, and nothing Bioware has done leaves hope for a different outcome. I suggested several times in their forums that a bit of innovation wouldn't hurt, even before DA (with varying degrees of politeness), and my part with that is over. What I intensely dislike, and borderline despise is their self promotion, (just compare AP dev diaries and DA presentation clips) which I could come to terms with if not for their attitude. Unlike Obsidian where devs openly admit their mistakes and the problems of their games, the guys at Bioware have an opinion of their infallability, probably strengthened by the rabid fan base, and they tolerate no criticism. For those reasons I bash them, and will bash them until they change their ways, and offer some f-ing innovation.

Poverty and an economic disaster were instrumental in setting off the confilcts in these parts.

To be honest, it's not the laws. It's the people. We really need to deal with this cultural self-loathing bull**** that's so trendy nowadays in the West. When even the French are measured in their chauvinism, you know there's definitely something wrong. Yes. Everyone equates tolerance with shoveling sh!t on ones own head these days. Political correctness is a sort of censorship that outdoes the Nazis at their best. So irritating.

I copied Maria, she copied Ramza who's on a Tragic the Bothering spree right now.

As I see it, the character is nothing like Imoen except for the looks and class. From what I've read on Leliana, she's pretty much yawn inducing like the rest of the DA cast. Trust me, if the dog could speak he'd tell you all about his traumatic experiences as a puppy and how that led to him using anabolic steroids today.

Actually its the only thing I like about Dragons Age so far, don't see what's wrong with it. I still won't play the game but the "return" of Imoen is a nice touch.

VTM:B & Arcanum disagree. Could name more, but they seem most appropriate on a RPG dev forums. Bad luck *shrugs*. That's why I said rarely, nto all the time.

I don't think that means what you think it means. "The definition and evaluation of art has become especially problematic since the early 20th century. Richard Wollheim distinguishes three approaches: the Realist, whereby aesthetic quality is an absolute value independent of any human view; the Objectivist, whereby it is also an absolute value, but is dependent on general human experience; and the Relativist position, whereby it is not an absolute value, but depends on, and varies with, the human experience of different humans." It apparent where we stand in this, and that the positions are irreconcilable since they echo a long standing debate. If you indeed adhere to the third position i understand that but i still think its a pointless place to be. Lets leave it at that. proselytize - 1 : to induce someone to convert to one's faith 2 : to recruit someone to join one's party, institution, or cause No, I voice my opinon but I neither have the time or the desire to convince anyone to follow it. If someone does that's nice, if they don't that's nice as well. Out of the 2 billion people in China I'd say 1.9 billion never heard of Caravaggio. So what? I like my ivory tower. I have guest rooms and serve milk and cookies - and you're all invited.

Well Torment repeatedly enters most of the "best games of all time lists", which at the very least means it has earned a place in most critics/gamers memories. That;s a start.

Everyone is fallible, just like the mentioned contemporaries of Van Gogh, recognising lasting value is a very difficult job, and time is often the best judge. I maintain that art is art regardless of personal likes and dislikes, or the capacity of the individual to recognize it as such. I admit to having a moderate knowledge of visual arts/classical music and the rest of what's considered high art. Hence I'm hesitant to pass any opinion apart from like/dislike. On video games I'm a bit more concrete. I agree to disagree on what is art in that field since that's the only the only way to gather opinions and end up with any sort of objective opinion in the end. Even if none is reached it will still be a valuable discussion. Much more so than the usual crappy reviews which pass for critical thinking.

That's pretty rich considering that Van Gogh (among others) was horribly underappreciated during his lifetime. I guess his contemporaries believed themselves to be every bit as enlightened as you believe yourself to be. "Art" is make-believe. Like most artists that explored new forms outside of accepted conventions. Today he's considered exceptional, so what's your point? The acceptance and admiration of his work came later, but that doesnt change the fact that it came about eventually. The passage of time is often important. Planescape Torment was released a decade ago, which is a practically a century in the video game world and we're still talking about it. That's more than 90% of games can claim. I think I know what I'm talking about and I'm not afraid to say it, so sue me. I don't seek anyone's agreement. internet is make-believe. your argument is make-believe. you are make-believe. And poof - you're gone because I suddenly believe that you don't exist. Only you arent. Your argument is pointless solipsism. But believe what you want.

Rather when you are taught to recognize what makes it art, or put another way - where its value resides and why its exceptional. It could be no other way, knowledge doesn't come out of thin air.

No, it doesn't. As a human being, you may desperately want an objective measure of things, and you may seek to find an objective measure of things, but the universe isn't obliged or even interested in helping you out. Good argument for a Planescape thread guys. Only partly true. People need it to exist, evidenced by the fact that they constantly "create" objectivity. Its an human trait, and a way to structure the mind - to create a semblance of order in a chaotic world. It is fictional to an extent, I agree, but that doesn't invalidate it or make it any less necessary.

No, which is why inexperienced people do not get a vote. Art is an elite thing - has been and always will be. You have to know the subject thoroughly to reconize the artistic value of it.

It is. It even hurt sales to a certain degree. A simple symbol of torment on a leather book type background as seen in the ending cinematic would have been infinitely better.

Not really Purkake. Van Gogh's, Mozart's and Michelangelo's work is objectively art. Now you could argue that those are all subjective opinions, and that their objectiveness is nothing but a large number of people sharing that same opinion over a long passage of time but that's a dead end argument, as it effectively eradicates all values. its a solipsist philosophy and it was as empty today as it was in Descarte's time. It has a lot of merit and is worth knowing, but human beings need a common objective standpoint which is evidenced by the fact that we live in a society. If everything was subjective, then law, morality, truth, art - you name it - would cease to exist because they are someone's subjective opinion on how things are/should be. granted, everything is fluid, and many things change - but an objective measure of things has to exist. In games that could mean that no criteria could differentiate the quality of Halo, Torment and Dungeon Lords for example and its obviously a worthless position to take.

Its a pretty fine line Purkake, I agree - to the point of being non-existent at times. Like a Faberge egg: Is it a toy, or is it art? Or both? In the case of games they are always both since the toy element is unavoidable. In the long run a game can be: a) a failure b)passable/mediocre/good c)perfect as craft d)art e)perfect as craft and art As for the games that I selected I think they are not perfect as craft: torment has weak gameplay, homeworld hasnt really dethroned Starcraft, and Shadow isn't original or outstanding from a gameplay perspective. But they more than compensate by being art and hitting a different goal so to speak. I havent found a game that would fall under e) but I don't think its impossible. I dont deny that its all loose categorization, and thats when the job comes down to competent people. Art is not democratic, the inexperienced majority simply doesn't get a vote. In our case the experienced people are ones who have stuck around long enough, and played-experienced most of what is offered.