RPGmasterBoo

Its alright... I was somewhat similar to him when I was around 16,17. Since then I realised that its wrong to enter these sort of discussions where you can't really prove anything because everybodys mind is already made up. If I wrote an essay now on the merits of BG games, and succeded at showing how all the other games are inferior it wouldn't make any difference. Everybody is entitled to his own opinions, and like a friend of mine said "an opinion is like an ass -everybody has one" It might be good to take a look why I think NWN (1) is a faliure because Oblivion continued this series. Now I admit, I didn't follow the buzz around NWN, and when it came out I was attracted by the premise of a game similar to BG. After all, every box had "From the creators of Baldur's Gate" printed on it. At first I liked it well enough, but by the end of the campaign it was the biggest RPG dissapointment of my life. First of all when I buy a game I expect it to be a full game. NWN was a toolbox with a demo campaign, showcasing its abilities. Its story, which started well progressively degraded into a total cliche. The few characters that existed in the game had meager storylines, and were either NPC quest PEZ dispensers, or cannon fodder (henchmen). The lack of a party eradicated all the tactical options inherent to DnD gampelay (because DnD is not made for solo characters). This led to combat being rendered senseless, and borderline stupid since all you had to do was click on the enemy and wait for him to drop. So NWN has: - bad combat - a bad storyline - no real NPC's, no party - no character development - is too short - is too easy - is too linear Actually, what exactly is good about NWN? The graphics, and other techincal aspects? They haven't aged terribly well. The toolbox? It is good. But I wasn't paying for a toolbox, I was paying for a game. If I wanted to create a game I would start my own studio, not buy a toolbox. If the response of the community wasn't as good, NWN would have been total rubbish. Even with the response, ultimately its fan made content and you couldn't count on it. Alright so you had Bioware made campaigns and two expansions. But those cost money, and why would I pay again when I was cheated out of a real, full game once? It took several years to make a worthwhile product out of NWN, by comparison BGII was such a product immidiately upon release.

So role playing equates to two dialogue choices, good/evil paths which lead to more or less the same result? You're building a character (role playing) on the basis whether he choses two more or less irrelevant choices, so he's either open fist, jedi, paragon, or closed fist, sith, renegade? Not only is this completely detached from reality its, shallow and simplistic. Comic book/fairy tale style morality. I'm just waiting to see when they are going to start colour coding the responses so that people wouldnt even have to read the dialogue anymore. Not that there was much to read in ME. But, this is all spamming, we're talking about Obsidian and who agrees on my other comments, or does not is unimportant. Hell I've never seen a gamedev talking freely on a forum about the weaknesses or postitive sides of their games and I'would like this discussion to continue that way, constructively, about Obsidian. Somebody asked J. E. Sawyer what he thought the qualities of their games were. I already said what I thought on the subject but it would be very nice to hear it from him. >>> pokes J. E. Sawyer

Sorry but this is absurd. BG2 has everything those games have and more. Even its playing time is larger than all of them combined. I think even the guys from Bioware would be shocked to hear this. You're the first person I've seen in the last 7 years who would even venture to compare NWN and JE with BGII...

Well they require patience and thought and simply aren't for everybody. Its hard to marry depth and instant immersion gameplay. Only BGII had that and even it required considerable patience to get things rolling. As for difficulty levels... well that's more of an arcade game style of thing isn't it, 99% of RPG's do not have enough optional content to make them worth replaying at all, if the gamer is thorough. But the fun factor could definitely use a boost, to help your sales, and more money would help with the next two points you mention. Hmm well, I found KOTOR II characters visually interesting and refreshing. This goes for MoTB as well. Graphically speaking they were not top notch at their moment of release. But what's the use of ME characters like Saren, Wrex, Liara who are graphically fantastic, dripping pixel shaders, but hopelessly shallow?? Well its true, they sell those games... but still, eye candy for eye candy's sake is a crappy compromise. I wouldnt say poor. You are outdone in that segment only by Bethesda and Bioware but they swim in cash and can afford the best of everything. Here's a link to an crpg list that I made from 1998 onwards, (disregard the writing in my language, and the grades - they are from a local mag) you will find that you are always in the top... On average, third best actually. Though Bethesda and the diablo clones cater to a differnt crowd. http://www.sk.rs/forum/attachment.php?atta...mp;d=1194452492 Anyway the second and third points are essentialy money and being able to hire top notch artists, programmers and so on. It all comes down to how much you are ready to compromise - make mediocre games for the average mediocre gamer and you'll be swimming in cash. Make good games for the hardcore crowd, and you'll have respect and solid sales, but never like your larger competitors... At least you are working on your faults, congrats

Sorry friend, it was some time ago and to tell you the truth I don't go there anymore, it might have been deleted and whatnot. Bioware forums are huge and confusing (to me at least). Effectively it was the same, except there was no mention of Obsidian, and much more criticism of Bioware.

@Lajciak: Its a sound perspective but there are some things must be mentioned. First, Obsidian is made of people who delivered some of the finest RPGs ever made, the fact that they did it under the name of another company is irrelevant. The core Black Isle/Interplay people were proven veterans, indeed already legends - not newbie developers. So I think your doubt was somewhat misplaced. Secondly, since I criticised KOTOR I might as well say why I think the game is above average at best, and derivative rubbish at worst. - It has forgettable and uninteresting characters, apart from HK-47, but a comic relief character can't make up for droll main characters (my personal opinion). To keep it short they are all examples of type or derivative. Bastila is Aribeth ver 2.0, and I think, they both come off as somewhat lame. Canderous, the wookie (forgot his name), Mission, the droid, Jolee Bindo, the female Jedi and Carth Onasi are all stereotyped, mercenaries, rogues or jedi. Their personal stories are boring, as are their quests (except for the Wookie but his is integral to a huge location). - It has a bad, reused, concept as storyline. Bioware insists on (for some reason) using the idea of an ancient, extinct "creator race" or empire. It was first seen in NWN campaign, then again in KOTOR and again in Mass Effect (yes, again!). All those plots are chases for essentially irrelevant things the (stones, or tablets I dont' recall?) in NWN, the star maps in KOTOR and I wont spoil it for you in ME. Repetetivness aside, KOTOR's storyline is totally predictable, and a very simplified good vs evil tale with a sole interesting twist (Revan). This is a step down from the morally much more ambiguous BG trilogy. - The main villain is comical. - The game is extremely linear. - The game is too easy. - The gameplay is too simplistic due to console adaptation. - The game is too short. - The game constrains the development of the PC to two extremes, Sith or Jedi with no real choice before the player. Bottom line, its an SW fan game. For them its like nirvana, but from a purely RPG perspective its not a great achievement. A few of these things stand for KOTOR II as well (shortness, linearity, ease, and improved but still not incredibly in depth gameplay) But! - The characters are excellent, Kreia, Visas, Handmaiden and Atton in particular. - The story demands much more participation from the player, and actually thinking about dialogue choices. - The story is also very interesting up to the point it ceases to exist. For me that's much more important. One things stands thoug, KOTOR II is crippled by its non existent ending. Team Gizka will hopefully set this right. In one thing you are right, KOTOR ia a more complete game, but all said and done its unambitious, derivative and plays on the SW card to cover up its weaknesses. I dont doubt that Bioware has talent. But I doubt it has courage and ambition to break from what still makes cash for them. We'll see how Dragon Age plays out, but I wouldn't hold my fingers crossed.

Thanks. I think every dev will make a good game with good gamer advice. Only not everybody's capable of good advice (sounds presumptuous eh?) I basically said the same thing on Bioware's forum only to be mobbed by rabid fanboys who think that KOTOR 1 is the next best thing after pre-sliced bread...

On what?

This could be the beginning of a long rant, don't say you weren't warned. But I'll try to keep it short and to the point. As far as cRPG's are concerned, I'm quite sure I've seen the best the genre has to offer and very likely the best there ever will be. Those are (expectedly): Planescape Torment, Fallout games (the first being the more inspired) and the Baldur's Gate trilogy (the second being possibly the "perfect RPG"). Original additions and all around great games were also Gothic II, the Witcher and Troika's Vampire: Bloodlines. Last but not the least come KOTOR II (in its sad unfinished state) and Mask of the Betrayer which would have been much better if it was a solo game, not NWN2's expansion. Now onto the main thing: yesterday I finished Bioware's Mass Effect. That's probably the reason for this whole rant. It has convinced me that Bioware is effectively dead as far as creative and original RPG's are concerned. Their games continue to sell but only the most adoring fans can shut their eyes to the the simple fact: they are making the same game third time in a row (KOTOR, Jade and now this). Similar dialogue, copy/paste characters and uninspired plot is all that's left when you strip away the purely technical excellence (not to mention the constant dumbing down of gamplay). While I consider BG II the pinnacle of computer role playing, there's no reason to to heap undeserving praise on them. Their community is perhaps at fault also, as there are far too many people who do exactly the wrong thing - demand more of the same. Onto Obsidian. I've played and completed all your games, and the games you made as Interplay/Black Isle. Currenty I'm playing KOTOR II again and reading some of the character dialogue, I'm amazed at how good it is (very reminescent of Torment, but then again so was MoTB, perhaps even more so - it could hardly be much different considering the same people working on it). I arrived at the logical conclusion - you're currently the last game dev trying to offer a truly original RPG experience (+ CDProjekt, but we'll see how it goes for them). I think your faults are mostly techical. To put it bluntly, your games are somewhat clunky. KOTOR II had inferior graphics compared to the first one (especially in the overall design segment), the pacing wasn’t great and not to mention that its unfinished, NWN2 wasn't very well optimized, it was buggy and story-wise it wasn't very good. MoTB was a great improvement, but some seemingly unchangeable faults remained: the feeling of confined space and linearity (I gather you are trying to rectify that with the new expansion), the somewhat bad implementation of DnD rules and the game being too easy in general. As an expansion to an above average game one could not, obviously, expect it to be perfection incarnate, but its excellent nonetheless. To move away from the crticisicm, your high points are well made characters, the best I've seen since BGII/Torment. This goes for KOTOR II and MoTB. Expecially for KOTORII. Even if its completely ruined by its incomplete status the characters are simply fantastic. Also your storylines are much more interesting than anything anybody else is offering. I'll try to summarize this in a few words: + improve the technical aspect of your games, especially graphical design (***design***, not crappy ***realism*** - think of the PS2 game Shadow of the Collossus when I say this). Realistic graphics are outdated overnight, good design lasts forever. + improve stability and the omnipresent bugs (how come this is always an issue wtih you???) + try to improve game pacing, Bioware does this very well - rip em off + try to work around the limitations 3D imposes on linearity and world size (hopefully it'll work out in the new exp) + think unique quests, one such quest is better than 5 cliched ones, we (the gamers) have seen 'em all. Too many times. + originality is key, dont be afraid like Bioware to drop an outdated gameplay concept if its not working out. Personally I think that NWN2 gameplay has gone as far as it will go and that it shoud be heavily modified or even scrapped, to ressurect true party based tactical gameplay. I mean an old dos rpg Realms of Arkania, had options such as splitting your party and leading two groups separately!! Today that's almost unthinkable... Look to the past for excellent (and free) solutions. + make games harder!! It cant be epic if it’s a pushover! + polish, polish, polish - always something stupid and almost irrelevant brings your games down a notch (NWN2 inventory for example) I hope you're not offended as it might seem that I'm telling you what your job is. I'm not. After Troika's demise (and they tried so hard to create great games) and Biowares stagnation, you're all that's left and I wouldnt like to see you finish as either of them. Damn this is loong. Oh well