RPGmasterBoo

I actually agree with everything you've said here. And since we so rarely agree, I leap at this chance! I absolutely adored PS:T, but I too referred to it as an "interactive novel" at the time... much to the consternation of many of its hard-core fans. I can't count the number of times I've been struck by the odd nostalgia and simply had to reinstall to play it just... one... more... time! It takes me to a world I had never seen before, and shall never see again. Truly a great achievement. Aww

Both games presume you'd want to get involved, right? I told you before: my PC doesnt care about saving the world. He does care about his friends because thats personal. I liked Imoen. It was never and issue with me. That aside what attachment do you have to these Grey Wardens? You've just arrived, and the guy that was watching your back bravely for the last several hours, and has a family is killed before your very eyes. Then you're forced to drink something that may kill you. Then they pat you on the back and tell you: hey you survived! A couple of days later you find out you're going to die earlier then you would have. "Screw you and your Grey Wardens" is the first reaction of any sane man to those horrors. In say Neverwinter Nights like in much of heroic fantasy you're doing a task for the common good, but at least you have glory and fame to look forward to. In DA the only thing you can look forward to is death in a duty that's forced upon you. So do you not see that the presumed interest in DA is much more divorced from the PC? At least that's how I see it, because I have trouble believing that my PC would go along with this if it wasn't forced upon him. There's actually no selfish and personal angle that applies to DA, since you don't really know any of the grey wardens enough to care. If there was a lenghty introduction that familiarized you with these people, presented their goals in an appealing manner etc. etc. then I could see my PC making their fight his own. As it is I don't see it. He didn't even refuse to fight! He refused to stuff himself with darkspawn blood (wouldn't anyone, considering how the first guy went down?). Nothing says he wouldn't have made a good soldier in the kings army. But no, Duncan never considers this, he just stabs the man and shows you whatcha gonna end up like if you refuse.

Which is basically your opinion that hangs in limbo. Of course the genre isnt exactly defined well... so *shrugs*

But Shepard is a natural leader with a great charisma which explains the "you had me at hello" romances and the undying loyalty of every member of the crew after you get better rations. Perhaps it was my fault, my shep looked more like a convict.

Its a mission based shooter with RPG conventions. The only reason its considered an RPG is because Bioware made it and because its branded as such. Why would Deus Ex be a shooter with RPG elements and ME2 an RPG with shooter elements when the difference is negligible. Both are dominantly action games with alternative ways for story events to play out. Except ME2 has more choices and characters Perhaps the stats, inventories, loot, builds, involved combat etc. dont automatically equate to RPG but if you strip them all off and leave mostly arcade action then you have an action game.

It wouldn't be politically correct. That's why all the bad Cerberus guys arent really bad but cool and bad. Comic book style. Besides most true bad guys would just jump ship on the first port, instead of going along with Shepards tomfoolery.

Why would you care about some vague Blight especially considering the cruel way you were drafted into the Gray Wardens? And having unknowingly lost decades of your life because of it? You never even get to choose to make a sacrifice or at least the illusion that youre making one - you're practically sacrificed by others. Sacrificed by this kind dude that kills family men because they lack his dedication?? To me thats unacceptable. Imoen is your closest friend. In my book thats more important than anything else, if I'm playing a good character. If I'm playing an evil one (which I never do but ok) well *shrugs* power, revenge? Besides spellhold couldn't keep him, and in retrospect if you ran it was logical he would hunt you down. You were necessary to his plans. But yes, that part of the story in BGII hinged more on a good character than on an evil one. In the latter part when he's got your soul, you don't really have a choice anymore. You can't even play an evil character in DA considering that the final goal is 110% altruistic. Instead you get the Spectre deal, work for the common good but you can do it as a good guy or as a bad guy. Either way its a good deed. True, though I'd change never for rarely. I was satisfied with the Witcher of all things and the Witcher's plot, once revealed is nothing special. I suppose Geralt had enough of those "antagonistic"qualities (why antagonistic, though?) *and MotB, though I really dont remember what the primary motivation of the PC was there Fair enough.

uh huh. you see this as a strength of bg2? okie dokie. It boils down to this. I always role play an egoistical character that cares more about himself (and his immediate companions) than abstract notions such as saving the world. I can't identify with that sort of thing or any idea larger than the character I'm playing as. The character is always good towards others, but those that are "there and then". Vague concepts of common good don't interest him. BGII allows me to do that. I find it superior because of it. Torment allows me to do that as well. When I role play I want it to revolve around me . Petty? Perhaps, but everyone is entitled to his own role playing style. I think its much harder (and riskier) to pull off a personal plot. Torment did and look at how it ended up. Regardless if done well it scores major points with me. That's all there is to it.

Torment is at the same time a great achievement and a bad game. It steps so far out of its form that it becomes an interactive novel, but its so good at it that few complaints are really valid. Personally I think its as close as video games can get to art that isn't primarily of a visual kind. Torment really takes you to another world, which is a common promise but rarely delivered.

@Ranger SG First of all the gathering of the good races was the smaller part of the LotR plot. Sure the ring was more important, but this was hardly unimportant. Unlike Tolkien who basically created and completed the entire genre in one extremely well written book, those who followed were just pale shadows. So yes, I don't like Martin. No, I'm not entirely tired of fantasy role playing *hint* look at sig *end hint*. BGII uses a lot of tropes. On the flip side it has an intensely personal plot which in my book along with PS:T elevates it above everything else. It does use cliche's but it offers something different as well. You aren't after all saving anything, but on the road to becoming a god - which isn't a common thing in fantasy. If PS:T doesnt appeal to you, then I could just as well say: "you love standard fantasy fodder, so much in fact you're willing to disregard the best video game narrative ever written". Because its too slow? Not enough flashy lights for you, what? It turns out that the entire GENRE in your opinion is a collection of stupid, derivative, fodder and if I don't like that fodder I should just quit? That would be fine if it were true. But its not. There are better things in the genre than the generic hell of Neverwinter Nights, Dragon Age, Temple of Elemental Evil, Diablo etc. DA is probably by far the best of all such generic titles, but that makes it no less generic. @Gromnir: Its all silly yes, but at least BGII dared to be different. Even Torment for what it was made little sense sometimes. How the hell did a concept such as Mortality all of a sudden become self aware and vindictive to boot. It couldn't. It was there because the game needed a villain and even then its not the most logical of villains. Regardless Torment had many great ideas, and what it did it did well. Its unique and that's what makes it so good. BGII is less unique and more reliant on tropes, but its not a 100% cliche. Almost everything released afterwards is.

I wasn't around on PS:T boards. From what I gather the game sold 400,000 copies which wasn't so bad at the time. I quote this from some dev article I read ages ago. I'm surprised that DA has such a hopelessly generic DnD type setting, but I don't consider it something to criticize the game about. Its okay. The LotR type plot "lets gather all the good races to battle the ancient evil" is what irritates me far more. That they couldnt come up with anything better is genuinely disappointing. *The single serious complaint I had before playing was the inclusion of gay romances - as you remember. Btw since you mentioned the main plot motivations sometime earlier lets compare (if you didn't then I apologise because I misread): DA: you're recruited, forcibly or willingly into a policeman type role for the whole world. Then you find out that they kill people who change their mind in cold blood. Then you find out you're gonna live several decades less then you normally would because of the poison they make you drink when you joined. WTF? Why? Who in their right mind wants that?? Why would I join this senseless cutthroat organization? The mafia is more lenient than that. BGII: your childhood friend and companion is kidnapped by a powerful individual. you have to go after her. You're given three possible motivations: 1. to help a friend in need 2. to find out about your heritage, since he knows mora about it. This equates to power 3. pure revenge 4. a combination of above I'm not saying its Shakespeare but helping a friend or desiring personal power is a much more belivable motivation. Its also much more down to earth. At least Shepard signed up for his duty. The Warden is either drafted unwillingly or is misled about what its going to cost him. My first desire was to kill Duncan for being such a bastard, not the darkspawn.

LotR orcs. Which fans? What's wrong with Torment's setting? I'd think the lack of elves and dwarves an advantage.

Didn't know much about DA before I started playing it. Only had one friends comment that he "too often felt like he was working, rather than playing" and that "the plot was generic". Didn't take it too seriously because he did like Mass Effect (which I didn't), so I though he had other criteria. I'm sad to see he was right, or at least I feel the same way he does. I hope you don't presume me so clueless that after having played so many RPG's I can't formulate my own opinion. @RangerSG: That's exactly what going through DA's main quest hubs feels like (for me). I recall certain parts of Baldurs Gate 1 and Throne of Bhaal being like that, but never felt that way about any of the content in BGII. Watcher's keep was the most fun dungeon I've ever played. At the very least on the first playthrough the novelty didn't wear off. (though much of it hasnt worn off even today) Dragon Age on the other hand feels stale and deja vu. ** Although the BG series is first time I encountered DnD, so I guess it wouldn't be as novel had I played the gold box games and other such titles. I've nothing against dungeon crawling, but there are interesting dungeons and boring dungeons. So far, what I've seen in DA was boring, after reaching a certain point. EG: the entire second level in the ruins (brescillian forest) felt unnecessary, then, half the cultist temple could have been excluded... Actually I'm not even arguing that the setup of DA's dungeons is boring, its just that should be at least 30% shorter.

*sigh* options yes, fun - no. At least not after the first hour of continuous combat against the exact same cultist/werewolf/skeleton and other DnD stock material. Did I not illustrate how an entire main quest hub (Haven) is grind from the beginning up to the final boss battle? The entire hub. You fight cultists in the village. Then you fight cultists in the temple. Then you fight more cultists in the temple. Then you fight even more cultists in the caverns punctuated by an occasional dragonling/drake. After 2 hours of this you get to fight the big dragon and a half an hour non combat gameplay. (Edit: wait, there is more fighting with your mirror party) Which raises a good question. Why after 6 year they couldnt come up with a single original monster? The darkspawn are just Orcs in disugise. Some even resemble the orcs from LotR. The rest are all DnD.

But it is a fact that BGII meant a lot to a large number of people to accumulate so many good mods without developer support *shrugs*

As distasteful as it is, I'll probably have to agree with Volourn, not because I dislike the game but because in reality few games lift off as far as serious modding is concerned. And DA is not a toolkit sold as a game as NWN was, in fact its the reverse.

Monty has a perfectly valid point, so far no one's too interested in modding DA. Whether that will change or not remains to be seen. Its not an expression of quality but it is an expression of community interest in the game.

Correcton: its not grindy, its tedious. For several reasons: 1. the story is not captivating enough to provide motivation 2. too few different enemies 3. too little pause between encounters. Eg: from the moment you reveal the nature of the villagers of Haven to the point you get to the Dragon there is nothing but combat except for the hunt for a few keys and one or two conversations. Replay that portion of the game if you don't believe me, its around 2 hours of non stop combat. Btw that's practically the entire hub. After that you've got a boss battle and a tiny logic puzzle area. While there was a lot of combat in BGII I don't remember slugging through enemies for two hours continuously at any moment. 4. as you noticed the hand painted graphics felt more unique. Tilesets produce deja vu.

Neverwinter Nights 2. Case proven. Master of Orion 2, Baldurs Gate 2, X-Com 2, Jagged Alliance 2, Heroes of Might and Magic 2, Ultima II, Elite 2, Quake 2, Sim City 2, Star Control 2, Populous 2, Dune 2, System Shock 2, Lord of Midnight 2, Star Wars: Tie Fighter, Kick Off 2, Deus Ex 2, Silent Hill 2, Delta Force 2, Grand Theft Auto 2, Guitar Hero 2, Mortal Kombat 2, Europe Universalis II, Hearts of Iron II, Dungeon Master II, Speedball II, Xenon 2, Age of Empires II, Lotus Eesprit Turbo Challenge II, Eye of the Beholder II, Another World II, etc. The second game in a franchise isn't always a letdown You crammed in more than a decade year of gaming there buddy. For every one of those there were 10 crappy sequels, that people forget

That's the point. You can't do the sort of work that she's supposed to have done without damage to your self, without being a monster inside. You can't play sweet and nice, and stab someone in the gut later without leaving serious fractures in your personality. That sort of behavior fits characters like Dexter, who have no moral compass. Thane was obviously damaged by it. She on the other hand is supposed to be a normal human being but shows little remorse or maturity considering all the things she's done. On top of it all, she has the gall to preach to the PC when he does something that's not "nice". As for god talking to her well I think the maker has better things to do than make phone calls in people's heads.

Well that explains it. So she goes from cold, deceitful and manipulative to devout and nice, because a deity is speaking to her? Come on Maria, it might have a certain logic to it, but the character is pretty much insane. Its because she's an attempt to shoehorn a completely different character into Imoen's appearance and personality, and the end result is a wacko.

I've no idea what you just said. I'm still not through with DA so I assume its something about that. Lemme just mention that all this analyzing was prompted by Volourn's obnoxious behavior, my major gripes with DA can be boiled down to two things: 1. painfully boring grind against 300 of the same enemies in every main quest hub 2. (and, much worse) completely uninspired and downright derivative LotR type plot I can forgive everything else, but if this story was the best they could come up with after 6 years of work, then my previous comment about Gaider needing a break seems spot on. Of course Ray and Greg said once that there was nothing wrong with the ancient evil's back storyline (?) so it might not be Gaider's fault. I'd be much more lenient on DA if I saw this storyline was setting up for something greater, but I'm not seeing it so far. It looks like a typical stand alone title, which gets a sequel depending on sales.

What didnt? She's religious fanatic/nun who spent her past life killing people for fun and games and now acts all "neutral good" with Imoen's innocent demanour? Jesus. If she was insane at least.... Its as if Thane suddenly became all jolly and obsessed with shoes and started preaching to the PC. As for the others, I don't see what's memorable about them. Particularly about Sten whose the typical stoic warrior type. Every Bioware game has a comic relief character. He/she/it doesn't count. The others however, have nothing better to do then bring up their sad childhood. The only remotely balanced personality in DA is Wynne and perhaps Zevran (I don't bring him along so I don't know).

Weird. I've never played much DnD or any pnp for that matter (too hard to get people together) so I'll take your word for it. I know the books but not much practice hence the noob question. (and thats the reason I was never bored with Forgotten realms, never had a chance to be). Btw have you heard of Nobilis? A diceless pnp, only one book released.