Yuusha

@Awesomeness: Turks urges government to take actions against Israel. -------------------- @Volourn: Unlike the media coverage in many distinguished media sources, Hamas is not solely a 'terrorist group.' Rather, Hamas is regarded as a multifaceted organization, operating in the Palestinian society as a social aid agency and a political actor, as well. If truth to be told, the UN aids had long been distributed to the region through Hamas, according to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA). All in all, the situation within the region does not seem very promising without understanding the reasons behind the Hamas popularity among Palestinians. Israel, no longer wants to be confronted with the Hamas missiles, which sounds a very reasonable demand. Yet, indiscriminately killing hundreds of civilians and giving serious damaging of thousands of others through a collective punishment to all the Gaza city is not an option for achieving this goal. I know it's easier for you to just accept the notion that Hamas is an evil organization hell-bent on destroying Israel, but the reality of it is Hamas has good reasons for attacking Israel. Israel has been pressuring on them to use any way of war. More than 300 thousand Jewish settlers have been living in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Most of them are armed and very trigger happy. They have been killing Palestinian children and civilians. They have been struggling to survive under economic siege. More than five thousand Palestinian teenagers are under torture in Israeli prisons. No medicine! Health and education services are not enough. In such a situation, how can you say that Hamas are attacking civilians unprovoked? The world should look at the Israel first. They are the real terrorists. As for the Hamas murdering Palestinians, could you provide me with the relevant link? ------------------------------ @Walsingham: First of all Wals, let us not forget that it was Israel that created Hamas. Of course the Israeli state has the duty to protect its citizens and provide freedom; however, it has to accept one reality as all other democratic countries have: No democracy, no free and secure society, can be built on the collective punishment of others and the abuse of others

@Walsingham: Be with you shortly. ---------------- @howling1: I didn't realize I was talking to a senior citizen. My apologies. Have another read at my post to you. I stated under Erdogan the Turkish - Israeli relationship was deteriorating, I didn't say that he and his party was responsible for the decline. Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough. In essence, it is the Turkish people themselves that felt Israeli military is exercising excessive force towards Palestinian civilians, hence the angry demonstration demanding the alienation of Israel. I don't agree that the Turkish military is the guardian of the constitution, but for the sake of argument let's just assume that is the case. It would be illogical for the Turkish military to ignore the will of the people, since the constitution states that they are the holders of power. There is no way the military would violently suppress the voice of the people demanding the severing of the ties of relations with Israel. If the military is indeed the guardians of the constitution, then they would have no choice but to make sure that their relation with Israel is severed for good. The Turks are simply following latest trend: Venezuela and Bolivia cut ties with Israel over Gaza. Just as Qatar and Mauritania also cut ties with Israel. The feeling's mutual. Since it's obvious that your wrinkly old ass is incapable understanding my simple point in my last post. Btw, I'm not here to make Israel look bad. I am here to tell you the truth, and if truth condemns Israel, then it stands ****ing condemned!

@Walsingham: 1. Israel definitely exists. The fact that it exists due to land theft and other war crimes is beside the point. Should a country be allowed to defend itself? Yes, it goes without saying. But Israel now, more than ever, is perceived by a large part of the world as a Rogue State. A rogue state habitually violates international law, possesses weapons of mass destruction, and practices terrorism (the use of violence against civilians for political purposes). Israel fulfills all of these three criteria, evident in its recent military activities in Gaza. In short: The (non Arab/Muslim) world is getting sick and tired of Israel's arrogance, atrocities and insanity. Israel have just signed its own death warrant. 2. Israel has demonstrated time and time again that they have no intention on adopting the two state solution (I can elaborate on this if you want). Basically, by its continued defiance, Hamas has managed to dent Israel

@Walsingham:

Congratulations Israeli fans! Your precious Israeli army have just reached the 1000 kill benchmark in just a little over two weeks. Won't be long now until the Palestinian 'terrorists' are totally and utterly wiped off the face of the earth. G'wan now and celebrate! Long live Israel!

@Gorgon: It's a satire, I don't think this kind of cartoon was meant to be funny. As I've stated before, the reason people on both sides will never see eye to eye on this is because they have different paradigms about this war. The Israelis and their supporters (US, EU) see this as a war on terror, while Palestinians and their supporters see it as a war of independence against western colonialism/oppression.

Why thank you Krezack, here's one for you too. And another...

Israeli White Phosphorus killed 3, wounded 60. Children included. White phosphorus are illegal to use against civilians according to the Geneva Convention. During the past 15 days, more than 854 people killed and 3,500 others wounded. As of late there have been 235 children, 90 women and 12 medics among the victims of this war. 235 children killed... This is ****ing insane.

Uh... Isn't being off topic against forum guidelines? You guys trying to get this topic locked or sumthin?

I see none of you guys took the Red Pill.

@Wrath of Dagon: The conflict needs to be seen in a broader context. The expulsion of the Palestinians was a catastrophe not only for them, but also for the neighboring countries. Which European country would accept on its soil tens of thousands of armed foreigners living in camps? What destabilizing effects did that situation have on fragile societies such as Lebanon and Jordan? It is all very well to say that the Arab countries should have integrated them, but how does Europe treat refugees who are their political allies, like the Albano-Kosovars, the Iraqi Kurds or the Afghans? They try to get rid of them as soon as possible. It goes without saying that the rich countries have the right to refuse to "take in all the world's misery", but that right is impossible to enforce in many poor countries. Double Standards... Um.. Actually they were ambushed by the IDF. ------------------------------ @Killian Kalthorn: And how, may I ask, do you judge the Israelis? Seeing that they've wiped Palestine off the map and targeting civilians and ramming ships on international waters? ----------------------------- @Volourn: -All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788 - 1860). ---------------------------- @Aristes: We're all biased I suppose, some more than others apparently. Mental gymnastics? LOL. I wasn't originally planning on giving Volourn a history lesson, he basically accused the Arabs of being anti-semitic when in reality the west have done more harm to the Jews than the Arabs/Muslims. Tainted sources? Care to elaborate on that? Coz it seems to me that you'd only accept sources that are convenient to your position. Terrorist sympathizer... Ah yes... The oldest trick in the book. No matter, I've been called worse. True, and I am all for peace. But just as the popular saying goes "No Justice, no Peace," don't expect peace will come if there aren't fundamental changes in Israeli's apartheid regime. Mighty 'generous' of them, offering back to the Palestinians some scraps of their own land. Some desert here.... A corner there....... Just slap a flag on it and call it a 'state.' Not really what the Palestinians had in mind... But of course, they'd be wise to take what they can GET for now, and always bargain for more later... Because as it stands now, they have nothing. Basically, a few concentration camps under Israeli control. Sounds like living to you? It's not terrorism when you are fighting for what was stolen from you in the first place. I think what most of the world want, is a peaceful and brighter future for both sides, not just for the Israelis. And that future is something that is unlikely to happen, because it is a truth of international relations that a balance of power keeps the peace, whereas an imbalance causes war, since the stronger side will always seek to impose its will by force. Until the Middle East manages to contain Israel

Allow me to debunk some of the 'misconceptions' about Hamas and Israel. Israel broke the ceasefire. Hamas no longer vies for Israel's destruction. In an effort to win international support, Hamas have to re-state publicly this message it gave last April to former U.S. President Jimmy Carter, and more recently to Yves Aubin de La Messuzi

@Killian Kalthorne What is this? FOX News? What, you gonna get combative now, start questioning my morals, knowledge and credibility. Typical Fox fascism.Stop framing questions to affect the outcome. It would only kill this discussion. Anyway, Hamas as I've stated time and time again, is not a terrorist organization, and there are historical, political and psychological dimensions to this statement, which we must work through patiently, if we are to arrive at a satisfactory answer. First of all, it is useful to recall why the apartheid/terrorist state of Israel is thought of or remembered with such revulsion. Images of the brutal treatment of Palestinians, especially in Gaza recently, provokes sorrow and deep disgust. That is why even after so many decades of Israel's existence, our conception of Israelis is of men and women that indiscriminately demolish the Palestinians' homes and even kill them off like some sort of meaningless cattle. If you really want to have a somewhat meaningful discussion, you have to bear in mind that the origins of this conflict didn't just start 6 months or six years ago, this conflict is decades old. You ever wondered why this is the case? Do you really think that the Arab world are inherently evil or 'anti-semitic.' If you're really interested in what's really going on and not just what you've been told all your life you might wanna visit http://www.ifamericansknew.org and study the origins of this conflict. ------------------------------------ @Guard Dog: That's not the whole story and I think you know it. Lemme give you another imaginary story: Oh and one other thing, did you hear about how Cynthia McKinney's boat was rammed by the Israelis in international waters? Wow... It's the USS Liberty all over again. So what say you Americans? You gonna keep letting the Israelis push you around like this? What is this hold they have on your government?

1. Simple, the Israelis have been besieging Gaza since 2005. The Palestinians couldn't leave or enter Gaza, they couldn't fish in their own seas, they couldn't receive financial and other humanitarian aids, they couldn't attract investors and thus building their economy etc... The Israelis control the border, the sea and the air. If a country is prevented from controlling their own borders, sea and air by another country which is militarily superior, that's called a country under occupation. If the Israelis would just leave the Palestinians in Gaza alone, meaning no more blockades, military operations, kidnapping and the rest of the crap given by the Israelis, they could very well fend for themselves. Gaza, in essence, is the largest open prison in the Planet run by the Israelis. 2. The situation in the West bank are not that different from Gaza. The Palestinians in the west Bank can hardly move from city to city because of the fact that they're Arabs/Muslims. They have to go through checkpoints and be subjected to harassments and interrogation by the Israelis. A ride to the hospital can take three hours if you're an arab whereas if you're a Jew it'd only take about 20 minutes. This is the usual story in Palestinian East Jerusalem and nearby areas of the West Bank: in an effort to discourage expansion of the Palestinian population and encourage emigration, Israel makes it almost impossible for Palestinians to obtain residential building permits; Palestinians build anyway, usually after multiple unsuccessful attempts to obtain a permit; and then the Israelis demolish the home, sometimes immediately after it's finished, sometimes months later, sometimes years later. This capriciousness is a further attempt to make life so miserable and unpredictable for Palestinians that many will leave. The sheer magnitude of the oppression of the Palestinians is overwhelming... It's hard to find words to describe. 3. I agree that violence is not the answer. But it's unrealistic to expect the Palestinians to stop resorting to violence when they and they children witness their homes being demolished on a daily bases. No justice. no peace.

@Meshugger: I'll answer your question in a few hours. In the meantime, enjoy....

@Volourn: Hamas: We want peace. We will cease firing rockets into Israeli territory. In return we demand that you halt all assassinations/kidnapping and lift the blockade so that we can have access to medical supplies and other basic necessities. Isreal: ok. Both & UN: *negotiate a ceasefire treaty* Most of the World: YAY!!! *few months passed the Israeli tightened its blockade on Gaza instead of lifting it, cutting off their water supply, electricity and intercepting the much needed humanitarian aid. Slowly choking the life out of the residents of Gaza.* Hamas: This is not what we

@Volourn: Lemme try to simplify things for you. A guy killed your, say, wife. You responded by killing him, his elderly parents, his wife, his 3 children and the rest of his relatives. Proportional? What I meant by moderation, is that hamas no longer adhered to its 1987 charter, which called for the destruction of Israel, but would support the creation of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders -- provided this solution was approved by the Palestinian people in a referendum. Hamas had offered to end all rocket attacks on Israel and other military operations, including arms smuggling into Gaza. In exchange, it demanded that Israel cease all assassinations, arrests and other military activity in the Gaza Strip, and ease the shipments of supplies into and out of the strip. It was Jimmy carter had a hand in this and that's precisely the reason why he was treated very poorly by the Israelis on his last visit. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and senior ministers refused to meet him. The Shin Beth, Israel

Insanity... Proportionality is obviously a foreign concept to the Israelis. As the F-16s carry out their missions of death, the message to the world is that Israel will continue to live by the sword, as it has done for the past six decades, rather than risk the concessions and compromises which peace would require. By radicalizing the Palestinians, and by arousing great anger in the Arab and Muslim world, this savage war rules out the possibility of Israel

@'Deadly'_Nightshade: That's what all the damn fighting is about!!!!!!!!!! At the heart of the Israel/Palestine conflict lies the question of land and who rules it. The collision of Jewish nationalist colonisation and Palestian nationalism, both laying claim to the same territory, forms the basis of this long conflict. Lemme simplify it for you.... Ya see... it's like this... Jews were living there ages ago, got kicked out, conquered, whatever. Arabs and Muslims moved in, took over and were minding their own business when all of a sudden, at the end of WW2, some bone head said: Hey! I got a great idea! Why don't we just CREATE a state called ISRAEL and stick all the jews THERE!!!! Great idea, everyone shouted. The Zionists, with the help of the champion of justice and freedom (the US of friggin A), then shipped them all there. One smaaaaalllll teeny weeny problem though, there were people who were ALREADY living there!!! They naturally had a SLIGHT problem with this grand idea and didn't appreciate it much, being told to give up their homes , their schools, their land... and get the hell OUT....... so we could make this new brave land, ISRAEL! Oh and we don't give a flying fudge that you guys have been living here since ancient times, we're here to take this land and all of you guys can just kiss our zionists asses and go to friggin HADES!!!! If not, then SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIIEEEEND!!!! The ones that stayed found themselves enclosed within the borders of a new country. A country that granted them no rights whatsofrigginever. Others fled... thinking the situation was only temporary! Imagine, being kicked out of your HOME and TOLD to give it up to someone else! Yeah RIGHT! Who in their right MIND, would tolerate that? When there are GUNS pointed at you.... you move or you friggin die where you friggin stand!!! So they moved. Some died where they stood. The ones that moved......want their confiscated land back. Barring that, they'd at least appreciate equal rights. Israel: Because formally there never was a Palestine, therefore the people living here do not exist. This land is ours for the taking. Palestine: Like hell we don't exist, this land have been our home for generations!!! There aint no way in friggin hell we're just gonna hand it over to you invaders!!!! So there! ------------------------------- @Samm: This is why I tend to ignore posts from people that are oblivious to the happenings in the Middle East. Because as I've displayed on my response to deadly nightshade, giving history lessons are tiring. So why don't you do a little reading on the history of the region before passing judgment on both Palestine and Israel. That way, you can find out first hand the accuracy of the booklet. You wanna talk about the right to exist??? Since the war of 1967, Palestinians have come to accept the reality of Israel within the 1948 boundaries. The land dispute has increasingly focused on Israel's occupation of the remaining territories -- the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem. UN Resolutions 242 and 338 stipulate that Israel must withdraw completely from these territories. Israel has not withdrawn, however, and it has built many Jewish settlements in the territories, actions deemed illegal by virtually all other states. The Oslo Accords (1993) and the Road Map (2003) have failed to reach a land agreement between the parties or to bring Israeli withdrawal. Since 2002, the Israeli government has been building a "security fence" that winds deep into Palestinian territory, claiming the barrier would keep Palestinian suicide bombers from striking Israeli citizens. But this separation wall is a major de facto annexation of Palestinian territories, as is Israel's continued settlement-building. The International Court of Justice has ruled that Israel's West Bank barrier violates international law, but the unequal struggle over the land of Palestine continues. I agree that The Palestinians and Israelis should coexist and share the friggin land. But coexistence would be difficult to achieve unless the Israeli government grants equal rights to Palestinians. But the thing is, Israel simply could not afford to grant equal rights to the Palestinians because it will give the Palestinians the power take over someday kick their sorry asses out. And they can't give back the land now too, because then Israel would cease to exist. What to do??? What to do??? Well apparently they carved out a few pieces and tried to throw them a bone. Mighty "generous" of them, offering back some scraps of their own land. Some desert here, a corner there... Just slap a flag on it and call it a "state." Not really what the Palestinians had in mind... but of course, they'd be wise to take what they can GET for now, and always bargain for more later. Because right now, they have nothing. Well except for a few concentration camps, run by the Israelis under Israeli control. Sounds like Living to you? As it stands now, the Palestinians are considered terrorists by most of the 'civilized' world even though they are fighting for their homeland and their right to exist. So hell yeah you guys need AWAKENING!!!

@Hurlshot: True there are Imams preaching hatred on Mosques, Madrasas etc. Sadly, I don't think we would be able to completely eradicate extremists and radical nuts if the core of the problem is not appropriately dealt with. The root of Islamic terrorism is Israel's occupation of Palestine. There are no countermeasures against people that are ready to die. The late Arafat was clearly against suicide bombings: 1. On Palestinian TV, on 28 March 2002, at 20:08 GMT, Arafat stated in Arabic: "On this occasion, I would like once again to reiterate our condemnation of yesterday's operation in Netanya, in which a number of innocent Israeli civilians were killed and wounded. This operation constitutes a deviation from our policy and a violation of our national and human values. I affirm our commitment to working toward an immediate cease-fire, as we informed General Zinni. We highly value his efforts. We informed him that we are ready for the immediate implementation of the Tenet's work plan without conditions, and without prejudicing any of its articles. Also, we have informed him of our readiness to implement the Mitchell Report recommendations in cooperation with the four-way US-Russian-European-UN committee headed by Gen. Zinni." 2. On December 16, 2001, in a speech on the occasion of Id al-Fitr in Ramallah (Gaza Palestine Satellite Channel Television, in Arabic, on 16 December 2001 at 16:00 GMT) Arafat stated in Arabic: "Today, I emphasize once again the complete and immediate halt to all armed operations. Once again, I call for a complete halt to all operations, especially suicidal operations, which we have always condemned. We will punish all those who carry out and mastermind such operations. This also applies to the firing of mortar shells, which have no objective but to provide an excuse for the Israeli attacks on us, our people, our children, and our women. Any violation of this decision will be considered an attempt to harm the higher national interests of our people and of our Arab nation." One of the most common argument regarding Israel's 'moral superiority' on their supposed 'war on terror.': "There is no moral equivalence between suicide bombings on the one hand, and Israel's killing of Palestinians on the other because while suicide bombings deliberately target civilians, Israeli forces do not." Suicide bombing is a reprehensible and unacceptable tactic. These attacks should stop immediately. What needs to be added, and what is almost always missing in American media commentary is a similar condemnation of Israel's deliberate targeting of Palestinian civilians. Since the Palestinian uprising started in late September 2000, more than 1,500 Palestinians, and 400 Israelis have been killed (as of April 12, 2002), the vast majority on both sides being unarmed civilians. Most of the deadly violence against innocent civilians, therefore, has been committed by Israeli forces and has been directed at Palestinians. Israel and its supporters claim that while Palestinian suicide bombers deliberately target Israeli civilians, Israel tries to avoid harming Palestinian civilians and that those who have died are "collateral damage." Hence, they argue, there is no moral equivalence between the killing of civilians by Israel and Palestinians. This defies both common sense and all the available evidence. On the one hand, Israel wants us to believe that 400 of its own civilians were deliberately targeted, while more than three times as many dead Palestinians all somehow just got in the way of what Israel claims is its humane and disciplined army. It is, in essence, an argument that 1,500 people all died by accident. Every human rights group that has examined Israel's practices has documented systematic and deliberate use of violence targeted at unarmed Palestinian civilians by Israeli forces. Physicians for Human Rights USA which investigated the high number of Palestinian deaths and injuries in the first months of the Intifada, concluded that: "the pattern of injuries seen in many victims did not reflect IDF [israel Defense Forces] use of firearms in life-threatening situations but rather indicated targeting solely for the purpose of wounding or killing." [source: PHR USA, 22 November 2000 This finding was based on "the totality of the evidence" the investigators collected about: "the high number of gunshots to the head; the volume of serious, disabling thigh injuries; the inappropriate firing of rubber bullets and rubber-coated steel bullets at close range; and the high proportion of Palestinian injuries and deaths." There can be no doubt that Israeli troops have been targeting innocent Palestinian civilians for death from the beginning of the uprising. This understanding was also reflected in UN Security Council Resolution 1322, passed on October 7, 2000, which "Condemns acts of violence, especially the excessive use of force against Palestinians, resulting in injury and loss of human life." In making the moral superiority claim, Israel's apologists are either shamelessly denying the irrefutable evidence cited above and are simply lying, or they are asserting that some forms of murder are morally superior to other forms of murder. Bottom line: The only way to end suicide bombings and other kinds of Palestinian violence is to end the extreme violence of the Israeli military occupation which produces and fuels both Palestinian resistance against the occupation forces and violent attacks against Israeli civilians. Absent a political process explicitly designed to end the occupation, there is little reason to believe that such attacks can or will end. ------------------ @Samm, Sand, random noob: I'll answer your questions later tonight, gotta get to work.

@Xard: "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs, We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?" David Ben-Gurion, quoted in "The Jewish Paradox" by Nathan Goldman, former president of the World Jewish Congress. -------------------- @Hurlshot: I know that it's difficult for you to accept that there are things regarding the Middle East that have eluded you for so long. Your reaction is understandable, so I will do my best to convey my points to you as politely as I can. Hopefully we can have a real discussion. So here goes... I agree with you that throughout history, Islam has conquered considerable amount of countries/nations. But lets take a closer look at that fact shall we. I think it was Jesus who said:

@Wals: Ok, for the sake of clarity I request that any questions that was posted in the Presidential elections thread to be reposted here in this thread and I will try my best to answer them.

I started this thread mainly because there are questions that need answers, myths that need debunking and ultimately, a planet that needs awakening. @Meshugger: You want a history lesson from a 'credible/unbiased source' huh? Well here it is. The following is taken from "The Origin of the Palestine-Israeli Conflict." Published by the Jews For Justice in the Middle East. Now I know you're likely to quickly dismiss this as propaganda, singing the all too familiar song of 'anti-Semitism.' But what I've stated above is more than just the truth, it is FACT! Furthermore, you've (more or less) stated that money is the root of evil claiming that it's responsible for all of the world's misfortunes. Well guess what? Money is not inherently evil nor is it inherently good. It is an inanimate object with no will of its own. Only through skillful manipulations can it become alive. The Zionists HAVE money. Lots of em. And they know how to use it to their advantage. So before you demonize money, take a look around... If you see hell, we did it to ourselves.

@Messhugger: The following is an explanation by Avigail Abarbanel. She is a former citizen of Israel and a psychotherapist in private practice in Canberra Australia. She can be reached at avigail@netspace.net.au. Make of it what you will.